Piccolo (Post Rosat) vs SSJG3 Trunks (No speed loss)

[Six Trails]

Gets shat on at every turn in terms of statements. Nobody expects anything impressive for Post Rosat Piccolo and when he leaves the Rosat, Goku makes fun on his power and Cell doesn't even acknowledges his power up, despite acknowleding Vegeta's and Trunks's.

You're really embellishing here. Goku never "makes fun of his power" and nobody doesn't expect anything impressive out of him. Goku tells Piccolo he's powered-up greatly but it's still not enough to do anything to Cell, but even 50% Goku's power is useless to Cell so it really doesn't mean anything. Also, the only case of Cell acknowledging Trunks and Vegeta's power is this statement:

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.

So Piccolo isn't necessarily even excluded from that statement. The anime even includes him if I recall correctly, for whatever that's worth.

Earthlings are as fragile as glass. Goku has literally no energy left to do anything.

So a 10x gap isn't enough for the Cell Juniors to knock Piccolo on the ground but a 30x+ gap over Goku and the Earthlings does? (Gaps used as examples, the point is any multifold gap over Piccolo would mean the Cell Kid would have no difficulty knocking him to the ground like Goku).

It's a possibility that i suggested. It's very likely he never fell in the first place too. Point is, standing doesn't mean he's close to Vegeta and Trunks because there are other characters who could stand up to stronger, although playful foes even if they had to pick themselves from the ground sometimes.

The cover implies he's doing better, although worse than Vegeta and Trunks (He's clearly doubling over on the shot). Tough to tell whether Piccolo really is closer to them than to Goku, given how the Jrs were playing around.

If it's not shown, then there's really no reason to believe it. You can't just make something up and say "it's a possibility"; we're debating what's actually in the manga. I also already agreed with Piccolo being weaker than Trunks and Vegeta, just not by a huge amount.

It's not really that hard. Piccolo is in much better shape than Goku and not much worse than Vegeta and Trunks.

 

[GSM123]

He should've still had a significant portion of his Ki even at that point, probably no less than 40% based on the latter portion of his fight against Shello still being fairly even, unless you believe shooting a volley of Ki blasts was somehow more taxing than a Kamehameha because plot.

Him bothering to use such a basic move on Cell would imply he's putting a considerable amount of power in it, and he spammed those Ki blasts for several pages. But regardless, why 40%? Why can't he be at 40% or 1/3 by the point he fired the Kamehameha? He did put all of his power in it.

Cell had given the order for his children to stop playing around prior to #16's speech to Gohan though. Whilst you could say the fact that the humans were still alive disproves this, it would seem to suggest that they were at least displaying their full power and not outright going for the kill. If Piccolo were complete trash, it's doubtful he'd be able to get up and would be in the same position as Galu and the fodder trio.

Gohan snapped two pages after Cell's order. The Jrs barely had any time to end fooling around and get serious to one shot the Z Fighters. Goku even was still conscious, so Piccolo isn't the only one doing better than the Earthlings but worse than Vegeta and Trunks here.

You're really embellishing here. Goku never "makes fun of his power" and nobody doesn't expect anything impressive out of him. Goku tells Piccolo he's powered-up greatly but it's still not enough to do anything to Cell, but even 50% Goku's power is useless to Cell so it really doesn't mean anything. Also, the only case of Cell acknowledging Trunks and Vegeta's power is this statement:

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.

So Piccolo isn't necessarily even excluded from that statement. The anime even includes him if I recall correctly, for whatever that's worth.

Piccolo thought Initial Semi Cell was an unreacheable plateau, Vegeta told Piccolo he'd be wasting his time by training on Rosat, and Piccolo shat a brick when he sensed 50% Goku.

After Rosat nothing that happened before gets contradicted: Piccolo knows he can't do jack to Cell, and Goku just smiles and says something like "Yeah bruh, i know". Goku wasn't considered useless against Cell. It was just believed that his chances weren't the best. There's a difference between being completely powerless and being a bit weaker.

According to Herms's note there may be a third person, but it's nothing certain. It's very unlikely Piccolo was indeed on this statement, given how Cell left the possibility of a 3rd person out on this statement:
Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P13.5
Context: after Goku says there’s other people to fight Cell besides him
Cell: “It’s the same thing. Vegeta and Trunks may have raised their power, but they should still be inferior to you…

So a 10x gap isn't enough for the Cell Juniors to knock Piccolo on the ground but a 30x+ gap over Goku and the Earthlings does? (Gaps used as examples, the point is any multifold gap over Piccolo would mean the Cell Kid would have no difficulty knocking him to the ground like Goku).

Given how Gohan snapped seconds after Cell told the Jrs to get serious, giving little time for the Jrs to stop playing and indeed get serious on the stronger Z Fighters, yes.

If it's not shown, then there's really no reason to believe it. You can't just make something up and say "it's a possibility"; we're debating what's actually in the manga. I also already agreed with Piccolo being weaker than Trunks and Vegeta, just not by a huge amount.

It's not really that hard. Piccolo is in much better shape than Goku and not much worse than Vegeta and Trunks.

Actually, i can't make things up and call them facts. I can bring up as many possibilities as i want, especially when we are talking about a fight we didn't even get to see. All we are doing here are speculating about how the fight went based on other evidences: Did Piccolo hold his own? Or did he got a more playful Jr? Did he ever fell and got back to his feet? Etc, etc. All speculation because he saw nothing of the fight except for a cover.

Of course he's in better shape than Goku. Piccolo didn't get to fight anyone before fighting the Jrs.

 

[Six Trails]

Piccolo thought Initial Semi Cell was an unreacheable plateau

You damn-well know that's a super generic and common line that every character uses at some point in the series. Krillin considered the Ginyus an "unreachable plateau" only to surpass them a few hours later. Not to mention, that's not even what Piccolo says. All he says is "Frankly, I don't think anyone can beat him."

Vegeta told Piccolo he'd be wasting his time by training on Rosat

Because Vegeta can somehow calculate what Piccolo's GAINZ would even be...

and Piccolo shat a brick when he sensed 50% Goku.

As did Vegeta and Trunks... did they not surpass Goku in their 2nd RoSaT trips?

After Rosat nothing that happened before gets contradicted: Piccolo knows he can't do jack to Cell, and Goku just smiles and says something like "Yeah bruh, i know". Goku wasn't considered useless against Cell. It was just believed that his chances weren't the best. There's a difference between being completely powerless and being a bit weaker.

Goku was useless against Cell.

Besides, I don't buy into the logic of everyone believing 50% is Goku's full powa. He'd have no reason to show all of his power right off the bat.

Given how Gohan snapped seconds after Cell told the Jrs to get serious, giving little time for the Jrs to stop playing and indeed get serious on the stronger Z Fighters, yes.

I think you're missing the point. The Cell Kid had the whole fight to knock Piccolo down to the ground like the other ones did to Goku and the Earthlings, so why did Piccolo's Cell Junior go easy on him and not knock him down if it had enough of a power advantage? You keep saying "oh it's just playing around" but by your logic only Piccolo's is playing nice.

Actually, i can't make things up and call them facts. I can bring up as many possibilities as i want, especially when we are talking about a fight we didn't even get to see. All we are doing here are speculating about how the fight went based on other evidences: Did Piccolo hold his own? Or did he got a more playful Jr? Did he ever fell and got back to his feet? Etc, etc. All speculation because he saw nothing of the fight except for a cover.

Of course he's in better shape than Goku. Piccolo didn't get to fight anyone before fighting the Jrs.

You're only saying it's a possibility to support your argument, it's not actually based on anything. If Piccolo is shown standing in every panel and on the cover of the chapter then there's no reason to assume he was ever not standing. Saying he got a more playful Cell Kid is just a poor argument too. If Piccolo was supposed to be perceived as weak then he'd be on the ground like Goku and the Earthlings.

Well yeah, obviously Goku was weakened by his fight with Cell. Nobody ever denied that. The point is he was weakened enough that he's a lot weaker than even Piccolo, and the gap between Goku and Piccolo is seemingly even bigger than the one between Trunks and Piccolo.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

But regardless, why 40%? Why can't he be at 40% or 1/3 by the point he fired the Kamehameha? He did put all of his power in it.

Cell would've weakened by a similar amount as Goku after regenerating, considering his advantage wasn't too great and even needed his Energy Field to counter Goku's volley. Whilst Namekian regeneration is known to take a toll on the user's Ki, it seems to be quite a stretch to assume it took up that much power.
Assuming Goku already used up so much Ki prior to using the Kamehameha wouldn't work either. Not only would that go against the point of MSSJ removing stamina problems and the fight not seeming to have been taxing on either side prior, but Gohan seemed assured to the end that Goku was holding back. I doubt he'd hold that sentiment if his father was far from peak condition before using an amplified attack.

Gohan snapped two pages after Cell's order. The Jrs barely had any time to end fooling around and get serious to one shot the Z Fighters. Goku even was still conscious, so Piccolo isn't the only one doing better than the Earthlings but worse than Vegeta and Trunks here.

That's debatable, considering timeframes aren't consistent when coming to panel-by-panel timeframes. Regardless, Piccolo's performance still appears to be closer to that of Vegeta/Trunks than to the rest of the group.

 

[Void]

Piccolo watched the whole fight with Trunks and Vegeta against Cell, then he senses ~50% CG Goku (who claims he can't beat Cell) and still thinks a trip to the RoSaT will be beneficial. Trunks is shocked to hear Goku say Piccolo would be useless, and Piccolo is able to stand his ground against a Cell Junior. None of that seems plausible if Piccolo is below ~50% CG Goku.

 

[Pyro]

Seems plausible to me.

 

[GSM123]

You damn-well know that's a super generic and common line that every character uses at some point in the series. Krillin considered the Ginyus an "unreachable plateau" only to surpass them a few hours later. Not to mention, that's not even what Piccolo says. All he says is "Frankly, I don't think anyone can beat him."

Kuririn was implied to have surpassed them though. Piccolo wasn't. You know, statements are true until contradicted.

Because Vegeta can somehow calculate what Piccolo's GAINZ would even be...

As much as Goku could calculate how strong a fusion between Goten and Trunks will be...

As did Vegeta and Trunks... did they not surpass Goku in their 2nd RoSaT trips?

They were shown to as Vegeta shows confidence on his odds against Cell. Piccolo isn't, he knows he is trash from the get go.

Goku was useless against Cell.

Besides, I don't buy into the logic of everyone believing 50% is Goku's full powa. He'd have no reason to show all of his power right off the bat.

You're right. I was somehow thinking that because Goku could fight he could win, lol.

But either way, Goku is still held in a higher regard than Piccolo. Piccolo flat out says he can't do jack against Cell, what is much worse than probably not being able to win.

I don't see how they could possibly know Goku had more power. They were in complete awestruck when Goku powered up to 100% against Cell.

I think you're missing the point. The Cell Kid had the whole fight to knock Piccolo down to the ground like the other ones did to Goku and the Earthlings, so why did Piccolo's Cell Junior go easy on him and not knock him down if it had enough of a power advantage? You keep saying "oh it's just playing around" but by your logic only Piccolo's is playing nice.

You're misremembering the fight. Every Cell Jr had the whole fight to knock any of their foes down, but only Kuririn was on the ground from the start, everyone else was on their feet getting pummeled. It wasn't until Cell told the Jrs to get serious that Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Goku were put down in seconds.

You're only saying it's a possibility to support your argument, it's not actually based on anything. If Piccolo is shown standing in every panel and on the cover of the chapter then there's no reason to assume he was ever not standing. Saying he got a more playful Cell Kid is just a poor argument too. If Piccolo was supposed to be perceived as weak then he'd be on the ground like Goku and the Earthlings.

Well yeah, obviously Goku was weakened by his fight with Cell. Nobody ever denied that. The point is he was weakened enough that he's a lot weaker than even Piccolo, and the gap between Goku and Piccolo is seemingly even bigger than the one between Trunks and Piccolo.

I'm not saying Piccolo might have been down to support my argument, that is the argument. I mean, wouldn't that Piccolo is holding his own be a speculation too? We are not shown anything to prove that. It's as conjecture as Piccolo falling and them picking himself up. All we know for a fact is that Piccolo is still in better shape than the earthlings and a worn out Goku by the end of the fight. Other than that is conjecture.

Why would the gap between Goku and Piccolo be bigger than the one between Piccolo and Trunks? All shown is that Piccolo is stronger than Goku, we don't know by how much.

I wouldn't say the Jr holding back more vs Piccolo is a poor argument. Not all Jrs are the same, one can be more willing to play than another. You see, Base Vegeta could stand against Pure Boo longer than SSJ2 Vegeta. You can say Pure Boo decided to be "nicer" to Vegeta on their 2nd round. If the same being can change his mind about how to threat a foe between battles, why can't two different beings (Piccolo's Jr and e.g. Goku's Jr) think differently about that?

Cell would've weakened by a similar amount as Goku after regenerating, considering his advantage wasn't too great and even needed his Energy Field to counter Goku's volley. Whilst Namekian regeneration is known to take a toll on the user's Ki, it seems to be quite a stretch to assume it took up that much power.

The others scenarios we've seen are about regenerating a lost limb though. Cell here is regenerating half of his body, including several organs like lungs, heart, brain, etc. Definitely harder to regenerate than an arm.

Assuming Goku already used up so much Ki prior to using the Kamehameha wouldn't work either. Not only would that go against the point of MSSJ removing stamina problems and the fight not seeming to have been taxing on either side prior, but Gohan seemed assured to the end that Goku was holding back. I doubt he'd hold that sentiment if his father was far from peak condition before using an amplified attack.

Typo. With that i meant right after he used the Kamehameha... Sorry for the typo.

That's debatable, considering timeframes aren't consistent when coming to panel-by-panel timeframes. Regardless, Piccolo's performance still appears to be closer to that of Vegeta/Trunks than to the rest of the group.

It all seemed really fast, if you ask me. Just a quick monologue from 16. Definitely looks like less time than stomps like Vegeta vs Recoome, where Vegeta was still standing and Recoome looked as bad as Vegeta despite being way stronger.

Piccolo watched the whole fight with Trunks and Vegeta against Cell, then he senses ~50% CG Goku (who claims he can't beat Cell) and still thinks a trip to the RoSaT will be beneficial.

He thinks it's worth the shot. It's better than nothing. He didn't think Gotenks could match Boo after training in the Rosat, yet he send him there anyway.

Trunks is shocked to hear Goku say Piccolo would be useless,

Because Goku had a smile on his face while saying "Duh". Even if Piccolo asked him to be blunt, that was very rude, what's not normal from the Goku Trunks knows.

and Piccolo is able to stand his ground against a Cell Junior.

Vegeta could stand on his ground as he was being stomped by Pure Boo.

 

[Pakl]

Trunks stomps