Piccolo Post Rosat vs Warming Up Perfect Cell

[ahill1]

There is evidence... M8 Goku design shows Goku when he existed the Rosat and his warm up vs Cell hence they are the same... Goku is never shown powering up... He is in his natural MSSjin state the whole time... Look at his eyes.. Yes both Warm Up Cell and resting Goku are >> SSjinG 2 Vegeta... Goku not having an aura the whole time too proves it...

It just doesn't show Goku powering up for the second time, it doesn't mean he didn't make one. I looked at his eyes, so? Goku doesn't really have the round eyes for so many panels, which isn't a trait of MSSJ resting state either:

^All of it in his "resting state". His eyes just change according to his emotions.

No... Trunks was surprised Goku was so blunt

That's unlikely, considering Piccolo just told Goku to be blunt. It's not like Trunks wasn't expecting Goku's sincerity. Hell, Trunks even witnessed how cut and dry Goku was with his father.

Piccolo says he is irrelevant while he thinks 50% MSSjin Goku is a match for Cell

Again, Piccolo probably knew Goku's 50% wasn't his 100%. He must have realized it on his trip into the Rosat, just like Vegeta.

Also only Vegeta and Trunks were said to be able to fight the Cell Jrs... Piccolo is much weaker than them

He doesn't need to be much weaker only because he wasn't putting up the same fight as Vegeta and Trunks.

That makes him at least below 50% MSSjin Goku

Not really, as Vegeta/Trunks/Cell Junior were considerably above 50% MSSJ Goku.

 

[Tapion]

"only Vegeta and Trunks were said to be able to fight the Cell Jrs." this is a lie.

As i have shown on Neoseeker, Herms' line can have alternative translations which are also correct, for instance;

Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta, Trunks OR SO are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”

"Vegeta, Trunks OR SO" is a translation that can not only include them, but Piccolo as well. I have checked this with two different japanese speakers. Even Herms' note also implies something like this.

Piccolo is not much weaker than them. If he is, Toriyama is trying to deceive his readers by putting him standing against the Cell Jrs in three different panels.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

We all know that Yamcha was holding back at that time.

 

[Pakl]

There is evidence... M8 Goku design shows Goku when he existed the Rosat and his warm up vs Cell hence they are the same... Goku is never shown powering up... He is in his natural MSSjin state the whole time... Look at his eyes.. Yes both Warm Up Cell and resting Goku are >> SSjinG 2 Vegeta... Goku not having an aura the whole time too proves it...

It just doesn't show Goku powering up for the second time, it doesn't mean he didn't make one. I looked at his eyes, so? Goku doesn't really have the round eyes for so many panels, which isn't a trait of MSSJ resting state either:

^All of it in his "resting state". His eyes just change according to his emotions.

No... Trunks was surprised Goku was so blunt

That's unlikely, considering Piccolo just told Goku to be blunt. It's not like Trunks wasn't expecting Goku's sincerity. Hell, Trunks even witnessed how cut and dry Goku was with his father.

Piccolo says he is irrelevant while he thinks 50% MSSjin Goku is a match for Cell

Again, Piccolo probably knew Goku's 50% wasn't his 100%. He must have realized it on his trip into the Rosat, just like Vegeta.

Also only Vegeta and Trunks were said to be able to fight the Cell Jrs... Piccolo is much weaker than them

He doesn't need to be much weaker only because he wasn't putting up the same fight as Vegeta and Trunks.

That makes him at least below 50% MSSjin Goku

Not really, as Vegeta/Trunks/Cell Junior were considerably above 50% MSSJ Goku.

What kind of logic is that? The burden of proof on you to show he powered up... He stays in the same state the all time... Also he does have round eyes most of the time in his resting state... Rhe Anime is more consistent about that... It only changes when he has a serious expression... When Goku powers up vs Cell he never has round eyes.... Also you ignore the concept art I showed showing its the same Goku.... Goku exists the ROSAT with Gohan both being in their natural MSSjin state... Goku then powers up vs Korin to half power so he can judge his power and powers down back to his initial state which was the entire point of him staying SSjin and in no point he was shown powering up... He looks the same in the warm up vs Cell in his natural state without aura and the art proves so...

Trunks being surprised means nothing... He can still be surprised Goku was so blunt even though Piccolo asked him to be... Nothing indicates Piccolo expected Goku to be stronger... Vegeta was even surprised Goku was so strong in the CG and he thought he surpassed before he showed his full power so that alone proves Vegeta thought 50% MSSjin Goku was his max... If Piccolo was really so strong and stronger than the Cell who beat Vegeta he would not say he is useless just like that... He must be at least well below half of Goku power...

If Piccolo was really in par with 50% MSSjin Goku it would be worth mentioning him.... Not only Vegeta and Trunks dont need to be more than 1.3x stronger than half of Goku power but Piccolo has no feats or statements to be put so high... Piccolo is well below Trunks so by default he cant be in oar with 50% MSSjin Goku but at least somewhat below

 

[Pakl]

"only Vegeta and Trunks were said to be able to fight the Cell Jrs." this is a lie.

As i have shown on Neoseeker, Herms' line can have alternative translations which are also correct, for instance;


Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta, Trunks OR SO are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”

"Vegeta, Trunks OR SO" is a translation that can not only include them, but Piccolo as well. I have checked this with two different japanese speakers. Even Herms' note also implies something like this.

Piccolo is not much weaker than them. If he is, Toriyama is trying to deceive his readers by putting him standing against the Cell Jrs in three different panels.

Very subjective.. The fact they were te ones mentioned proves they were in a different level than the rest... Can you people stop with thos shit of Piccolo standing??? The rest were the humans who are so weak its not even funny... Goku was also down necause his stamina was probably lower than even the humans after he fought Cell... Piccolo can be in par with SSjinG 2 Vegeta or even the Cell who beat Vegeta to be able to stand... Not only he is durable and the Cell Jrs were toying but in dragon ball people who are way weaker can still stand and fight like Goku vs Freeza etc...

Also the Boo Arc and the fact Piccolo used the Rosat only once prove he cant be so high

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

If Piccolo was really so strong and stronger than the Cell who beat Vegeta he would not say he is useless just like that... He must be at least well below half of Goku power..

He said he is useless against Cell who is stronger than Goku and warm up Cell isn't.

Expected Cell > 50% Goku > Piccolo can still work.

 

[Pakl]

If Piccolo was really so strong and stronger than the Cell who beat Vegeta he would not say he is useless just like that... He must be at least well below half of Goku power..

He said he is useless against Cell who is stronger than Goku and warm up Cell isn't.

Expected Cell > 50% Goku > Piccolo can still work.

True but I say Piccolo cant be in par with 50% Goku but he is well below

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

If Piccolo was really so strong and stronger than the Cell who beat Vegeta he would not say he is useless just like that... He must be at least well below half of Goku power..

He said he is useless against Cell who is stronger than Goku and warm up Cell isn't.

Expected Cell > 50% Goku > Piccolo can still work.

True but I say Piccolo cant be in par with 50% Goku but he is well below

He's right there in Goku's level. Beside, Trunks was surprised that Piccolo is useless against Cell so that should tell something.

 

[Pakl]

He said he is useless against Cell who is stronger than Goku and warm up Cell isn't.

Expected Cell > 50% Goku > Piccolo can still work.

True but I say Piccolo cant be in par with 50% Goku but he is well below

He's right there in Goku's level. Beside, Trunks was surprised that Piccolo is useless against Cell so that should tell something.

No he is not... Piccolo is not even mentioned with Trunks and Vegeta... He is not on their level and they are not that much stronger than half Goku.... He has no statements or feats... Trunks was surprised Goku was likely so blunt... Piccolo says he is trash so he cant be close to Goky

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

True but I say Piccolo cant be in par with 50% Goku but he is well below

He's right there in Goku's level. Beside, Trunks was surprised that Piccolo is useless against Cell so that should tell something.

Spoiler

No he is not... Piccolo is not even mentioned with Trunks and Vegeta... He is not on their level and they are not that much stronger than half Goku.... He has no statements or feats... Trunks was surprised Goku was likely so blunt... Piccolo says he is trash so he cant be close to Goky

His feats against Cell Jrs?

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.

Trunks was obviously surprised that Piccolo is useless against Cell, there's no need for him to surprise about that knowing that NOT EVEN SUPERGOKU can do manage something. It's like Trunks being surprised that Krillin is useless against Cell after SuperGoku confirm it.

 

[ahill1]

The burden of proof on you to show he powered up... He stays in the same state the all time

You do think the level Cell used in his warm up against Goku was the same he used to tool Vegeta, don't you? Piccolo called "resting state" Goku an every day level, indicating it's piss weak. If you think Son-kun used that level against Cell, then you'd be telling me resting state MSSJ Goku >>> Vegeta SSJG2.

AT is known for not putting much emphasis in a power up or a transformation when they were already shown, like the SSJ3 or SSJG2 (see how quick they were in the second time).

Also he does have round eyes most of the time in his resting state

That's not true for many panels, like I showed you. It depicts Goku's emotions, rather than being a trait of the resting state. Goku also doesn't have the round eyes in the majority of his warm up (vs Cell):

And other panels.

Rhe Anime is more consistent about that

Why is the anime more consistent with that? Because it shows it the way you want it to be?

When Goku powers up vs Cell he never has round eyes

Neither he does in his warm up fight. Or at least for the majority of the fight.

Goku then powers up vs Korin to half power so he can judge his power and powers down back to his initial state which was the entire point of him staying SSjin and in no point he was shown powering up... He looks the same in the warm up vs Cell in his natural state without aura and the art proves so...

Goku also didn't have an aura in his 50% state. The aura argument is pretty bunk.

Trunks being surprised means nothing.

It does. It means he was expecting Piccolo to be relevant against a foe that might be above 50% Goku.

He can still be surprised Goku was so blunt even though Piccolo asked him to be

No, he can't, because he was already expecting Goku to do it. He also saw how blunt Goku was with Vegeta, saying "Yeah, I'm a lot stronger than you" or something like that. It's not like he never saw Goku do it before.

Besides, Piccolo's "doubt" (it wasn't really a doubt since he already was almost sure of that) was a simply one, "Be blunt, I'm not good enough to be relevant", to which Goku just confirmed, "Yeah, you aren't". I don't know how Trunks was expecting another type of answer from Goku.

Vegeta was even surprised Goku was so strong in the CG and he thought he surpassed before he showed his full power so that alone proves Vegeta thought 50% MSSjin Goku was his max

No, it proves Vegeta wasn't expecting Goku's full power to be that high. Vegeta said to Goku show what he can do, so we know he knew Goku was hidding power. Goku (100%) > Vegeta > Goku (Vegeta's estimations) > Goku (50%).

If Piccolo was really in par with 50% MSSjin Goku it would be worth mentioning him

Not if he wasn't giving the same fight Vegeta and Trunks were. Cell's statement revolves around the ones who were fighting back.

 

[Pakl]

He's right there in Goku's level. Beside, Trunks was surprised that Piccolo is useless against Cell so that should tell something.

Spoiler

No he is not... Piccolo is not even mentioned with Trunks and Vegeta... He is not on their level and they are not that much stronger than half Goku.... He has no statements or feats... Trunks was surprised Goku was likely so blunt... Piccolo says he is trash so he cant be close to Goky

His feats against Cell Jrs?

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.

Trunks was obviously surprised that Piccolo is useless against Cell, there's no need for him to surprise about that knowing that NOT EVEN SUPERGOKU can do manage something. It's like Trunks being surprised that Krillin is useless against Cell after SuperGoku confirm it.

Again him standing doesnt make him stronger than even SSjinG 2 Vegeta... Cells comment is subjective but the fact he mentions Vegeta and Trunks proves they are another level compared to the others

Basically they were able to fight almost equal woth the Cell Jrs where Piccolo was just able to survive them... Piccolo says he is irrelevant despite thinking 50% MSSjin Goku might have a chance so he must be below him by a decent level... Trunks can be surprised Goku immediately said Piccolo was irrelevant.. Hell he is so irrelevant Goku wants him to defuse with Kami... Piccolo can be in par with the Cell who beat Vegeta and thats fine... Higher than him is overrating him

 

[Pakl]

Hahaha... I like your posts man.. Always well detailed but I will have to correct you here ->

You do think the level Cell used in his warm up against Goku was the same he used to tool Vegeta, don't you? Piccolo called "resting state" Goku an every day level, indicating it's piss weak. If you think Son-kun used that level against Cell, then you'd be telling me resting state MSSJ Goku >>> Vegeta SSJG2.

Piccolo called it an every day level because they mastered their SSjin self so they can stay in this level the whole time.... Nowhere was it said it was weak... Yes Cell uses the same level he did vs Vegeta and Goku is the same since he existed the Rosat.. Ots shown and never uncontradicted

AT is known for not putting much emphasis in a power up or a transformation when they were already shown, like the SSJ3 or SSJG2 (see how quick they were in the second time).

And that has to do with??

That's not true for many panels, like I showed you. It depicts Goku's emotions, rather than being a trait of the resting state. Goku also doesn't have the round eyes in the majority of his warm up (vs Cell):

And other panels.

Cant tell if you are blind here... The images you post actually shows Goku has round eyes.... Again his eyes are the indicator of gis natural MSSjin state which is the state he is always in before he powers up vs Cell... Trunks even mentions Gokus eyes change when he powers up vs Cell...

After Goku is at full power his eyes become narrow...

Furthermore...

The image in the right side below is after he existed the Rosat and the rest when he warmed up with Cell... They are the same... Goku never powers up and looks the same the whole time.. He even lacks aura which only his resting state does

Why is the anime more consistent with that? Because it shows it the way you want it to be?

No because it shows the round eyes as an indicator...

Neither he does in his warm up fight. Or at least for the majority of the fight.

Already addressed

Goku also didn't have an aura in his 50% state. The aura argument is pretty bunk.

Is not that an aura?

I know in the next page he doesnt have though but can be an inconsistency... The Anime shows the aura.... Anyway, his eyes are narrow unlike his every day level MSSjin state and before you say its based on his emotions, just look at this..

Goku has round eyes here despite being annoyed and stressed but when he goes full power he never has round eyes... The eyes are the proof as implied by Trunks...

It does. It means he was expecting Piccolo to be relevant against a foe that might be above 50% Goku.

No, Trunks was surprised that Goku was so blunt and could tell immediately Piccolo is irrelevant... Piccolo is so irrelevant Goku wants him t defuse with Kami... If Piccolo was in par with 50% Goku who was the strongest and half of his power was considered to be his max, why would not anyone point out that he was so strong? Why Piccolo considers himself trash if he was in par with the Guy who might have a chance to beat Cell? Piccolo doesnt need to be close to 50% Goku at all... Nothing says so except bias

No, he can't, because he was already expecting Goku to do it.

Piccolo telling Goku to be blunt doesnt mean Trunks thought he would be... Piccolo calling himself trash is proof he cant be in par with the strongest guy there... Makes no sense...

No, it proves Vegeta wasn't expecting Goku's full power to be that high. Vegeta said to Goku show what he can do, so we know he knew Goku was hidding power. Goku (100%) > Vegeta > Goku (Vegeta's estimations) > Goku (50%).

Already had this argument with Kyo and he just could not prove it since its idiotic... Vegeta is not that much ahead of Goku... He is closer to half of his power.... Why would Vegeta think Goku has more power and that he still is stronger tha him.... Did he think Goku only showed 90% of his power? makes no sense... Also him saying show me your strength can mean Goku was in his resting state and Vegeta expected him to power up to what he did vs Korin and show him his strength in a fight...

Not if he wasn't giving the same fight Vegeta and Trunks were. Cell's statement revolves around the ones who were fighting back

Again that means Trunks and Vegeta are well ahead of Piccolo... That means Piccolo being 50% MSSjin Goku level is baseless because he has no feats... Everything points out he is not. His conversation with Goku.. The statement of Cell... The Boo arc... He only went once in the rosat.... He is likely much below Trunks because he is not in their level... He can be in par with the Cell who beat Vegeta... Nothing disproves it...

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo called it an every day level because they mastered their SSjin self so they can stay in this level the whole time.... Nowhere was it said it was weak... Yes Cell uses the same level he did vs Vegeta and Goku is the same since he existed the Rosat.. Ots shown and never uncontradicted

Let's see how Piccolo said it:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”

"They can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level...", with the "at" being the key word, meaning it's referring to that level [resting state] as an ordinary, everyday level. If he had said "They can exist in that state [SSJ] as an ordinary, everyday level...", then I'd agree that the "ordinary, everyday level" isn't referring specifically to the level they were using at that time, rather it'd be referring to the SSJ in general.

Piccolo is basically saying, "he can use the transformation [SSJ] while using an ordinary level [resting state]

And that has to do with??

That he doesn't have to do a big deal with Goku powering up at the Cell Games, with the first time lasting longer basically for it, being the first time.

The images you post actually shows Goku has round eyes

No, that aren't round eyes. That's what round eyes are supposed to be:

Trunks even mentions Gokus eyes change when he powers up vs Cell...

That happened when Goku was about to do a power up and the characters generally have narrow eyes when doing it. I might admit Goku had his eyes a bit narrower when at 100% than warming up, but not really a drastic difference.

^I don't even see a difference and that's confirmed resting state Goku and 100% Goku.

Again, resting state Goku and 100% Goku

When Son-kun was back at Kami's temple, his eyes designer were already changed to the round ones. it's pretty inconsistent. I rather believe it changes according to his seriousness or something than it being a trait of the resting state or so (he didn't have round eyes in this resting state for many panels and even had a really round eye à la 100% Goku when checking Cell's perfect form).

No because it shows the round eyes as an indicator...

So the manga doesn't show it?

Is not that an aura?

I cannot see the image, but I'm assuming you're talking about this moment:

Well, that could be an aura, I'm not sure or it could be just be the wind displacement. The next panel, which shows Goku exactly at 50% depicts no aura.

No, Trunks was surprised that Goku was so blunt and could tell immediately Piccolo is irrelevant

I already addressed it.

Piccolo is so irrelevant Goku wants him t defuse with Kami

Well, Goku wants him to defuse because of the Dragon Balls, which would be important in that situation. Piccolo's power at that moment wouldn't be relevant to Goku, considering it's way weaker than Cell and his plan was Gohan to fight Cell. Piccolo could very well be at 1/2 Goku's power and yet be irrelevant.

Why Piccolo considers himself trash if he was in par with the Guy who might have a chance to beat Cell? Piccolo doesnt need to be close to 50% Goku at all... Nothing says so except bias

Becuase he knows this guy has even more power than what he displayed and so has Cell.

Piccolo telling Goku to be blunt doesnt mean Trunks thought he would be... Piccolo calling himself trash is proof he cant be in par with the strongest guy there... Makes no sense...

It at least shows he was already expecting it, so no reason to be surprised. Again, Trunks already saw how blunt Goku was with Vegeta, so saying that's the reason of his surprise it's pretty far-fetched.

Another point for Piccolo knowing Goku's 50% wasn't his 100%: Trunks (Cell Games), who alongside with Vegeta was above 50% Goku, wasn't overflowing confidence in the Cell Games and still treated Goku as the top dog among them, saying "It really has to start with you, Goku?" and didn't show any sings of wanting to fight Cell.

Yeah, Piccolo is on par with 50% of the strongest guy, nothing wrong with it.

Vegeta is not that much ahead of Goku... He is closer to half of his power

How do you know it? There's nothing showing he has to be pretty close to 50% Goku or so.

Did he think Goku only showed 90% of his power?

Not 90%, but some amount above 50%.

Also him saying show me your strength can mean Goku was in his resting state and Vegeta expected him to power up to what he did vs Korin and show him his strength in a fight...

Not really, because Vegeta was thinking it, speaking to himself to Goku show him his strength, it's not like he was impatience with Goku for not be serious yet.

Again that means Trunks and Vegeta are well ahead of Piccolo.

Ahead? Yes. Way ahead? No. Besides, according to the was it's worded out in Japanese, Vegeta and Trunks might not be the only ones to be holding their own.

The Boo arc

What in the Boo arc?

He only went once in the rosat.

Because most likely he hit his peak or something. Goku was also only once in the Rosat as well. Are you going to say he was piss weak because of that?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

No he is not... Piccolo is not even mentioned with Trunks and Vegeta... He is not on their level and they are not that much stronger than half Goku.... He has no statements or feats... Trunks was surprised Goku was likely so blunt... Piccolo says he is trash so he cant be close to Goky

His feats against Cell Jrs?

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.

Trunks was obviously surprised that Piccolo is useless against Cell, there's no need for him to surprise about that knowing that NOT EVEN SUPERGOKU can do manage something. It's like Trunks being surprised that Krillin is useless against Cell after SuperGoku confirm it.

Again him standing doesnt make him stronger than even SSjinG 2 Vegeta... Cells comment is subjective but the fact he mentions Vegeta and Trunks proves they are another level compared to the others

Basically they were able to fight almost equal woth the Cell Jrs where Piccolo was just able to survive them... Piccolo says he is irrelevant despite thinking 50% MSSjin Goku might have a chance so he must be below him by a decent level... Trunks can be surprised Goku immediately said Piccolo was irrelevant.. Hell he is so irrelevant Goku wants him to defuse with Kami... Piccolo can be in par with the Cell who beat Vegeta and thats fine... Higher than him is overrating him

Nah, Goku said he wouldn't stand a chance so your point is nothing. Also, Piccolo thinks he must enter into the ROSAT as if it would make his strength on par if not greater than Cell who also beat Trunks.

 

[Pakl]

"They can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level...", with the "at" being the key word, meaning it's referring to that level [resting state] as an ordinary, everyday level. If he had said "They can exist in that state [SSJ] as an ordinary, everyday level...", then I'd agree that the "ordinary, everyday level" isn't referring specifically to the level they were using at that time, rather it'd be referring to the SSJ in general.

I dont get your point.... I never said their every day level was not their SSjin state... I am saying that Piccolo's quote means that they trained so they can stay at SSjin like it was their basic state... That doesnt mean their SSjins were as weak as their base but that they trained so they can stay SSjin without strain or malicious heart but natural... Resting SSjin Goku who is also warm up Goku Aka natural MSSjin is in par with the Cell who beat Vegeta...

That he doesn't have to do a big deal with Goku powering up at the Cell Games, with the first time lasting longer basically for it, being the first time.

Goku was never shown power up since he showed Korin his power... He goes out of the ROSAT as MSSjin his natural state powers up for Korin then goes back to his natural state until the Cell Games and is shown to fight Cell in that level... He has the same traits and he never shows a power up... No one mentions he powered up and everyone knows he was suppressed and thought half of his power was his max... Burden of proof on you.. Regardless... 50% MSSjin Goku > Warm up Goku even if you say resting Goku and warm up Goku are different...

As for his eyes... You show images from the Anime and the Anime is more consistent with the round eyes... Its hard to see in the Manga if his eyes are round... You do realize round eyes are a trait of his MSSjin state right? Once he goes FPSSjin he doesnt have round eyes... The images you posted show his round eyes... Compare it to Goku when he goes full power

http://images.mangafreak.net/mangas/dragon_ball/dragon_ball_398/dragon_ball_398_10.jpg?v5

http://images.mangafreak.net/mangas/dragon_ball/dragon_ball_399/dragon_ball_399_6.jpg?v5

Goku has round eyes in the warm up but when powers up his eyes are totally narrow... Trunks mentions it...

Now the Anime..

Goku in his warm up vs Cell even showing a serious face still has round eyes a little.. Look at his pupils.. Hoku wheb powering up never shows round eyes.. The Anime shows Goku at full power and half power with a flowing golden aura and narrow eyes... Thats for a reason...

That happened when Goku was about to do a power up and the characters generally have narrow eyes when doing it. I might admit Goku had his eyes a bit narrower when at 100% than warming up, but not really a drastic difference.

Do you really think Trunks mentioned it for no reason? There is a reason he mentioned it.. The round eyes is a trait of his natural state... Thats why we see his eyes being narrower after powering... Toriyama would not put this line of Trunks just for nothing.. Also the same applies for Gohan.. He has round eyes the entire time until he fights Cell..

^I don't even see a difference and that's confirmed resting state Goku and 100% Goku.

You picked Goku when he wore a serious face when he met Cell... Resting Goku can have narrow eyes when he is shown serious but most of the time his eyes are round.. More like his pupils are round and big... 100% Goku almost never shows round eyes except when he is powered down and out of stamina...

Straight from the CG when he was about to warm up with Cell

http://images.mangafreak.net/mangas/dragon_ball/dragon_ball_396/dragon_ball_396_14.jpg?v5

Round eyes... In the 10 days he always has round eyes... In his fight with Cell he has round eyes when warming up except when he seems serious but in the fight with full power he is always with narrow eyes...

When Son-kun was back at Kami's temple, his eyes designer were already changed to the round ones. it's pretty inconsistent. I rather believe it changes according to his seriousness or something than it being a trait of the resting state or so (he didn't have round eyes in this resting state for many panels and even had a really round eye à la 100% Goku when checking Cell's perfect form).

Again... He can have narrow eyes in his resting state when he is serious but most of the time he has round eyes... At full power he always has narrow eyes... Pretty obvious... I know its non canon but in movie 8 Goku and Gohan always have round eyes.. Goku has in some points narrow eyes but when he is serious or stunned but still round eyes when he is in a regular condition.. In movie 9 though, Gohan never has round eyes... Thats further evidence.. Hell those movies actually prove what was intended in the serious with Goku being in his resting state the same as warm up Goku like his concept art for movie 8...

So the manga doesn't show it?

Most of the time it does nut its hard to notice in a black and white Manga such traits... Maybe the colour ed Manga can help?

Well, that could be an aura, I'm not sure or it could be just be the wind displacement. The next panel, which shows Goku exactly at 50% depicts no aura.

Seems to be an aura though like when Goku fought Yakon..

http://images.mangafreak.net/mangas/dragon_ball/dragon_ball_452/dragon_ball_452_8.jpg?v5

Similar and we know he had an aura... The Anime also shows an aura when he power up to half power coupled with Goku having an aura in the first panel in the Manga makes my poont legit... Perhaps the coloured manga can help here too?

I already addressed it.

No... Piccolo telling Goku to be blunt doesnt mean Trunks thought he would be... You choose to use that subjective case and ignore the main idea... Piccolo outright states he is useless against someone who showed a level below 50% MSSjin Goku... He also says he is irrelevant despite thinking 50% Goku can win.... You can say he expected Cell to be stronger but not Goku... Nothing implies so...

This scene proves FP Perfect Cell (estimated by Piccolo) >/~ 50% Goku > Piccolo...

Well, Goku wants him to defuse because of the Dragon Balls, which would be important in that situation. Piccolo's power at that moment wouldn't be relevant to Goku, considering it's way weaker than Cell and his plan was Gohan to fight Cell. Piccolo could very well be at 1/2 Goku's power and yet be irrelevant.

But nothing has Piccolo at that level... Everything proves he is weaker... Again if I say he is just stronger than SSjinG 2 Vegeta then its fine because nothing contradicts it.... Also at that point AT seemed to make everything look mysterious... Goku saying Cell would rip him apart despite sensing the level he used to beat Vegeta which is much weaker than his full power implies so... The more fighters they need the better... Piccolo is simply not in that level

Becuase he knows this guy has even more power than what he displayed and so has Cell.

Nowhere was it shown he knew Goku had more power... Thats just made up lie Piccolo supporters say... Everyone was syurprised when Goku powered up vs Cell... Nowhere was it said he knew Goku had more power unless you have proof

It at least shows he was already expecting it, so no reason to be surprised. Again, Trunks already saw how blunt Goku was with Vegeta, so saying that's the reason of his surprise it's pretty far-fetched.

Goku was bluntbwith Vegeta and justvsaid he was stronger than him which is different than calling him irrelevant... Anyway you choose to look in the irrelevant part of the scene and not relevant part which is Piccolo considering himself mess worth than Goku at 50%..

Another point for Piccolo knowing Goku's 50% wasn't his 100%: Trunks (Cell Games), who alongside with Vegeta was above 50% Goku, wasn't overflowing confidence in the Cell Games and still treated Goku as the top dog among them, saying "It really has to start with you, Goku?" and didn't show any sings of wanting to fight Cell.

Not really... Trunks just thought Goku had a plan because he was so relaxed in the 10 days and never worried... Trunks even says that he would see now why Goku was so relaxed during the 10 days... No Piccolo is weakervthan 50% MSSjin Goku.... Even if your points were true which they are not since they are easily countered, that still doesnt prove Piccolo is so strong....

How do you know it? There's nothing showing he has to be pretty close to 50% Goku or so.

Not close but he is closer to half of his power than his full power.. I would say he is 65% of his power... Thats a general consensus...

Did he think Goku only showed 90% of his power?

Not 90%, but some amount above 50%[/quote]

But that makes no sense... He thinks he is stronger than him and looks like he thinks he is stronger by a decent margin at least so it makes no sense he thought Goku would be even stronger as he is likely just 1.3x stronger than half of Goku... Get it now??

Not really, because Vegeta was thinking it, speaking to himself to Goku show him his strength, it's not like he was impatience with Goku for not be serious yet.

Never said he didnt but my point is that he said it because he wanted to see his power when he fights.... He thinks half of his power is his max which is why he thinks he is superior...

Ahead? Yes. Way ahead? No. Besides, according to the was it's worded out in Japanese, Vegeta and Trunks might not be the only ones to be holding their own.

It can mean that Trunks and Vegeta rival them and that Piccolo can survive for some time... Doesnt mean anything... Vegeta being 65% of Goku imo and Trunks is likely just rivalling Vegeta so he is 60% of Goku... What makew you think Piccolo is just 1.2x weaker than Trunks? Thats not much below and Piccolo is implies to not be close to them... He must below 50% MSSjin Goku

What in the Boo arc?

Piccolo is treated like trash and never implied to be so strong.... He is way below SSjin Teen Gohan... He might be weaker than Kaioshin who is likely multiple times below SSjin Gohan... He is belownthe kida too...

Because most likely he hit his peak or something. Goku was also only once in the Rosat as well. Are you going to say he was piss weak because of that

I say he was once in the Rosat to show you that it makes no sense he would be so strong if Vegeta and Trunks went twice... Goku was with Gohan and sparring partner makes huge gain... Thats another proof Piccolo cant be so strong... Saiyan have more potential... Yes Piccolo was maxed out after fusing with Kami then powered up in Rosat but stil nowhere near the saiyajins... Vegeta even laughs at him saying only saiyans need to get in the rosat

 

[ahill1]

I dont get your point.... I never said their every day level was not their SSjin state... I am saying that Piccolo's quote means that they trained so they can stay at SSjin like it was their basic state... That doesnt mean their SSjins were as weak as their base but that they trained so they can stay SSjin without strain or malicious heart but natural... Resting SSjin Goku who is also warm up Goku Aka natural MSSjin is in par with the Cell who beat Vegeta...

I repeat: the "They can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level" is clearly referring to the fact that they are using SSJ while in a regular level, clearly referring to the "resting state" as this type of level. The usage of the world "at" rather than "as" proves he's speaking that the "resting state" itself is an ordinary level, not just the way they are behaving as Super Saiyans.

Goku was never shown power up since he showed Korin his power

Yet it's pretty likely he did one, as it's preposterous he'd fight someone stronger than SSJG2 Vegeta at a level he uses in his day to day. Vegeta also didn't note Goku being stronger than him and his comment ("are you suggesting you're way above me") becomes nonsense if Goku were already in a level >>> his SSJG2.

You can believe the "warm up Goku" is still in a level below his 50%, like at 30% or so, but believing is the same as his "resting state" is pretty far-fetched.

No one mentions he powered up and everyone knows he was suppressed and thought half of his power was his max

That's conjecture and unlikely, considering Vegeta's comments and Trunks' reactions at the Cell Games, who still was very worried and couting with Goku having a plan. That are not the reactions of someone who has considerably surpassed his estimations of Goku's full power and thinks he'll be the one to finish Cell.

As for his eyes... You show images from the Anime and the Anime is more consistent with the round eyes

I showed you images of what round eyes are supposed to be, not the ones you called round eyes and called me blind for not seeing the correct way.

You do realize round eyes are a trait of his MSSjin state right?

You do mean "resting state", right? And I showed you how this is inconsistent:

^resting state.

There are three type of eyes shown in this moment of Cell Saga:

Narrow eyes: -

Spoiler

- resting state Goku

Spoiler

- warm up Goku

Spoiler

- full power Goku


Not so narrow eyes:

Spoiler

- warm up Goku

Spoiler

- resting state Goku

Round eyes

Spoiler

Resting state Goku has the three-types of eyes, sharing the same 'extremely narrow eyes' with full power Goku when staring at Cell. Not consistent and barely an indicator that Goku was at his resting state initially against Cell.

Goku has the "round eyes" in the majority of his time in the resting state, like 80% of the time (I just looked at the manga), while having the narrow eyes when looking at Cell and the not so narrow eyes when listening to Trunks' explanation. How you can conclude Goku was in his resting state vs Cell based solely on his eyes, which is inconsistent through the manga, is beyond me.

Do you really think Trunks mentioned it for no reason? There is a reason he mentioned it.. The round eyes is a trait of his natural state... Thats why we see his eyes being narrower after powering... Toriyama would not put this line of Trunks just for nothing.. Also the same applies for Gohan.. He has round eyes the entire time until he fights Cell..

See above.

You picked Goku when he wore a serious face when he met Cell... Resting Goku can have narrow eyes when he is shown serious but most of the time his eyes are round.. More like his pupils are round and big... 100% Goku almost never shows round eyes except when he is powered down and out of stamina...

So why were you saying the eyes doesn't change according to the seriousness or so and are rather a trait of resting state?

resting state - most of the time he has round eyes, yet he appeared with no so narrow eyes and with extremely round eyes
warm up - 100% with not so narrow eyes, but his eyes weren't so round as the majority of his resting state
full power - extremely narrow eyes

Yet warm up = resting state based on this?

Straight from the CG when he was about to warm up with Cell

http://images.mangafreak.net/mangas/dra ... _14.jpg?v5

Round eyes... In the 10 days he always has round eyes... In his fight with Cell he has round eyes when warming up except when he seems serious but in the fight with full power he is always with narrow eyes...

He hadn't even started to fight yet, and just had one feet over the ring. When he took a instance to fight, his eyes weren't round.

Again... He can have narrow eyes in his resting state when he is serious but most of the time he has round eyes

And he hadn't round eyes at the warm up. They weren't so narrow as when he was 100%, but weren't really rounds either.

Most of the time it does nut its hard to notice in a black and white Manga such traits... Maybe the colour ed Manga can help?

I don't have access to the colour manga scans. If you do, feel free to post them.

Seems to be an aura though like when Goku fought Yakon..

It's too close to distinguish that as an aura. Like I said, the next panel is exactly showing Goku at 50%, which has no aura, but has doodles showing the wind displacement or so.

How about this other point for Trunks SSJG3 being above 50% MSSJ Goku?

When Goku power ups to 50%, nobody wants to comment that he's stronger than Cell or something, and they don't question his comment that he probably won't win. Sure, you could say they were already expecting Cell to have more power, but no one comments on it, which I feel would be important.

No... Piccolo telling Goku to be blunt doesnt mean Trunks thought he would be... You choose to use that subjective case and ignore the main idea... Piccolo outright states he is useless against someone who showed a level below 50% MSSjin Goku... He also says he is irrelevant despite thinking 50% Goku can win.... You can say he expected Cell to be stronger but not Goku... Nothing implies so...

There's no reason for Trunks to be expecting another answer from Goku. Are you telling me he'd expect Goku to just spare Piccolo's feelings and don't tell the truth, even though Goku showed that's not the case with him by telling Vegeta he's now much stronger than him? That's just nonsense. You keep saying Trunks' surprise comes from Goku's rudeness without even backing this up, only to suit your idea against Piccolo being so strong.

But nothing has Piccolo at that level... Everything proves he is weaker

Not really, he's standing up against the Cell Juniors just like Vegeta and Trunks (though he most likely wasn't giving the same fight they were).

Goku saying Cell would rip him apart despite sensing the level he used to beat Vegeta which is much weaker than his full power implies so

When did he say that? All he said was "I won't know until I try, but probably I won't be able to do so". Nothing of Cell ripping him apart as far as I'm aware.

Nowhere was it shown he knew Goku had more power... Thats just made up lie Piccolo supporters say... Everyone was syurprised when Goku powered up vs Cell... Nowhere was it said he knew Goku had more power unless you have proof

Everyone being surprised doesn't take away the implications of them knowing Goku 50% isn't Goku 100%. It just means nobody thought Goku was that strong. When Goku released his true power, Vegeta said "that's his true power?", which sounds more like he's amazed at how high it is, not that there's one he wasn't even aware of.

Goku was bluntbwith Vegeta and justvsaid he was stronger than him which is different than calling him irrelevant... Anyway you choose to look in the irrelevant part of the scene and not relevant part which is Piccolo considering himself mess worth than Goku at 50%..

Goku said Vegeta has still to improve and says he's much stronger than him now, if anything it's much more rude than just confirming Piccolo's suspicions. It's relevant, because I'm trying to point out Trunks' surprise coming from Goku being blunt or so is unlikely, thus making Piccolo ~ 50% Goku a pretty high possibility.

Not really... Trunks just thought Goku had a plan because he was so relaxed in the 10 days and never worried... Trunks even says that he would see now why Goku was so relaxed during the 10 days... No Piccolo is weakervthan 50% MSSjin Goku.... Even if your points were true which they are not since they are easily countered, that still doesnt prove Piccolo is so strong....

Yeah, but he was still counting with Goku's plan and wasn't overflowing confidence, which is unlikely if he thinks himself as considerably stronger than full power Goku.

But that makes no sense... He thinks he is stronger than him and looks like he thinks he is stronger by a decent margin at least so it makes no sense he thought Goku would be even stronger as he is likely just 1.3x stronger than half of Goku... Get it now??

He displayed confidence because he surpassed 50% Goku, just like Piccolo displayed confidence against the Androids by surpassing Trunks, even though he didn't know how much the Androids were above the boy from the future.

Vegeta is really not overflowing confidence here, and is still allowing Goku to fight first. He doesn't act like he's 100% sure of his superiority, just like Piccolo, in the Androids saga, still has a bad feeling about the upcoming threats.

Never said he didnt but my point is that he said it because he wanted to see his power when he fights.... He thinks half of his power is his max which is why he thinks he is superior...

He isn't in a hurry, or saying to Goku stop suppressing and show him already.