Pakl said:
I dont get your point.... I never said their every day level was not their SSjin state... I am saying that Piccolo's quote means that they trained so they can stay at SSjin like it was their basic state... That doesnt mean their SSjins were as weak as their base but that they trained so they can stay SSjin without strain or malicious heart but natural... Resting SSjin Goku who is also warm up Goku Aka natural MSSjin is in par with the Cell who beat Vegeta...
I repeat: the "They can exist in that state
at an ordinary, everyday level" is clearly referring to the fact that they are using SSJ while in a regular level, clearly referring to the "resting state" as this type of level. The usage of the world "at" rather than "as" proves he's speaking that the "resting state" itself is an ordinary level, not just the way they are behaving as Super Saiyans.
Goku was never shown power up since he showed Korin his power
Yet it's pretty likely he did one, as it's preposterous he'd fight someone stronger than SSJG2 Vegeta at a level he uses in his day to day. Vegeta also didn't note Goku being stronger than him and his comment ("are you suggesting you're way above me") becomes nonsense if Goku were already in a level >>> his SSJG2.
You can believe the "warm up Goku" is still in a level below his 50%, like at 30% or so, but believing is the same as his "resting state" is pretty far-fetched.
No one mentions he powered up and everyone knows he was suppressed and thought half of his power was his max
That's conjecture and unlikely, considering Vegeta's comments and Trunks' reactions at the Cell Games, who still was very worried and couting with Goku having a plan. That are not the reactions of someone who has considerably surpassed his estimations of Goku's full power and thinks he'll be the one to finish Cell.
As for his eyes... You show images from the Anime and the Anime is more consistent with the round eyes
I showed you images of what round eyes are supposed to be, not the ones you called round eyes and called me blind for not seeing the
correct way.
You do realize round eyes are a trait of his MSSjin state right?
You do mean "resting state", right? And I showed you how this is inconsistent:
^resting state.
There are three type of eyes shown in this moment of Cell Saga:
Narrow eyes: -
- resting state Goku
- warm up Goku
- full power Goku
Not so narrow eyes:
- warm up Goku
- resting state Goku
Round eyes
Resting state Goku has the three-types of eyes, sharing the same 'extremely narrow eyes' with full power Goku when staring at Cell. Not consistent and barely an indicator that Goku was at his resting state initially against Cell.
Goku has the "round eyes" in the majority of his time in the resting state, like 80% of the time (I just looked at the manga), while having the narrow eyes when looking at Cell and the not so narrow eyes when listening to Trunks' explanation. How you can conclude Goku was in his resting state vs Cell based solely on his eyes, which is inconsistent through the manga, is beyond me.
Do you really think Trunks mentioned it for no reason? There is a reason he mentioned it.. The round eyes is a trait of his natural state... Thats why we see his eyes being narrower after powering... Toriyama would not put this line of Trunks just for nothing.. Also the same applies for Gohan.. He has round eyes the entire time until he fights Cell..
See above.
You picked Goku when he wore a serious face when he met Cell... Resting Goku can have narrow eyes when he is shown serious but most of the time his eyes are round.. More like his pupils are round and big... 100% Goku almost never shows round eyes except when he is powered down and out of stamina...
So why were you saying the eyes doesn't change according to the seriousness or so and are rather a trait of resting state?
resting state - most of the time he has round eyes, yet he appeared with no so narrow eyes and with extremely round eyes
warm up - 100% with not so narrow eyes, but his eyes weren't so round as the majority of his resting state
full power - extremely narrow eyes
Yet warm up = resting state based on this?
Straight from the CG when he was about to warm up with Cell
http://images.mangafreak.net/mangas/dra ... _14.jpg?v5
Round eyes... In the 10 days he always has round eyes... In his fight with Cell he has round eyes when warming up except when he seems serious but in the fight with full power he is always with narrow eyes...
He hadn't even started to fight yet, and just had one feet over the ring. When he took a instance to fight, his eyes weren't round.
Again... He can have narrow eyes in his resting state when he is serious but most of the time he has round eyes
And he hadn't round eyes at the warm up. They weren't so narrow as when he was 100%, but weren't really rounds either.
Most of the time it does nut its hard to notice in a black and white Manga such traits... Maybe the colour ed Manga can help?
I don't have access to the colour manga scans. If you do, feel free to post them.
Seems to be an aura though like when Goku fought Yakon..
It's too close to distinguish that as an aura. Like I said, the next panel is exactly showing Goku at 50%, which has no aura, but has doodles showing the wind displacement or so.
How about this other point for Trunks SSJG3 being above 50% MSSJ Goku?
When Goku power ups to 50%, nobody wants to comment that he's stronger than Cell or something, and they don't question his comment that he probably won't win. Sure, you could say they were already expecting Cell to have more power, but no one comments on it, which I feel would be important.
No... Piccolo telling Goku to be blunt doesnt mean Trunks thought he would be... You choose to use that subjective case and ignore the main idea... Piccolo outright states he is useless against someone who showed a level below 50% MSSjin Goku... He also says he is irrelevant despite thinking 50% Goku can win.... You can say he expected Cell to be stronger but not Goku... Nothing implies so...
There's no reason for Trunks to be expecting another answer from Goku. Are you telling me he'd expect Goku to just spare Piccolo's feelings and don't tell the truth, even though Goku showed that's not the case with him by telling Vegeta he's now much stronger than him? That's just nonsense. You keep saying Trunks' surprise comes from Goku's rudeness without even backing this up, only to suit your idea against Piccolo being so strong.
But nothing has Piccolo at that level... Everything proves he is weaker
Not really, he's standing up against the Cell Juniors just like Vegeta and Trunks (though he most likely wasn't giving the same fight they were).
Goku saying Cell would rip him apart despite sensing the level he used to beat Vegeta which is much weaker than his full power implies so
When did he say that? All he said was "I won't know until I try, but probably I won't be able to do so". Nothing of Cell ripping him apart as far as I'm aware.
Nowhere was it shown he knew Goku had more power... Thats just made up lie Piccolo supporters say... Everyone was syurprised when Goku powered up vs Cell... Nowhere was it said he knew Goku had more power unless you have proof
Everyone being surprised doesn't take away the implications of them knowing Goku 50% isn't Goku 100%. It just means nobody thought Goku was
that strong. When Goku released his true power, Vegeta said "that's his true power?", which sounds more like he's amazed at how
high it is, not that there's one he wasn't even aware of.
Goku was bluntbwith Vegeta and justvsaid he was stronger than him which is different than calling him irrelevant... Anyway you choose to look in the irrelevant part of the scene and not relevant part which is Piccolo considering himself mess worth than Goku at 50%..
Goku said Vegeta has still to improve and says he's much stronger than him now, if anything it's much more rude than just confirming Piccolo's suspicions. It's relevant, because I'm trying to point out Trunks' surprise coming from Goku being blunt or so is unlikely, thus making Piccolo ~ 50% Goku a pretty high possibility.
Not really... Trunks just thought Goku had a plan because he was so relaxed in the 10 days and never worried... Trunks even says that he would see now why Goku was so relaxed during the 10 days... No Piccolo is weakervthan 50% MSSjin Goku.... Even if your points were true which they are not since they are easily countered, that still doesnt prove Piccolo is so strong....
Yeah, but he was still counting with Goku's plan and wasn't overflowing confidence, which is unlikely if he thinks himself as considerably stronger than full power Goku.
But that makes no sense... He thinks he is stronger than him and looks like he thinks he is stronger by a decent margin at least so it makes no sense he thought Goku would be even stronger as he is likely just 1.3x stronger than half of Goku... Get it now??
He displayed confidence because he surpassed 50% Goku, just like Piccolo displayed confidence against the Androids by surpassing Trunks, even though he didn't know
how much the Androids were above the boy from the future.
Vegeta is really not overflowing confidence here, and is still allowing Goku to fight first. He doesn't act like he's 100% sure of his superiority, just like Piccolo, in the Androids saga, still has a bad feeling about the upcoming threats.
Never said he didnt but my point is that he said it because he wanted to see his power when he fights.... He thinks half of his power is his max which is why he thinks he is superior...
He isn't in a hurry, or saying to Goku stop suppressing and show him already.