Piccolo vs 19 Post

[Void]

The others are scared of Vegeta's blast though. Sick Goku is also trash and I don't think his Kamehameha was anything special.

 

[p123]

So then why did 19 gain massive power from it? He went from being utterly helpless to being significantly superior. It doesn't take much to scare them. Aren't they vastly inferior to his base power?

 

[ahill1]

I disagree with 20 pre > 19 pre by a slight amount. 20 noted how 19 gained a whole lot of power after absorbing Goku's KMHMH, while still not being too worried and being just like "how greed you are".

Goku was already pretty fucked when #19 absorbed his base power. He couldn't even get up for himself:

Not to mention it has barely made a difference according to Vegeta, since he judged #19's power according to his movements and he didn't make any of it after absorbing Goku's base power. After analyzing #19 post Goku base power, Vegeta just notes how his estimations were accurate, showing #19 post base Goku >= #19 post KMHMH.

Piccolo also said they can fight in burst and that, therefore, the energy 20 absorbed was nothing. It could just mean it was nothing compared to his full power, not that it barely added an increase on the androids' power.

There's plenty of evidence for 20 post > 19 post p, just like I showed in my previous post. The same Vegeta who ripped 19's head off had to make bluff against 20. Even if Vegeta did lose energy after firing the BBA, the main cause of him being weakened was #19's absorptions, as noted by Piccolo:

 

[ahill1]

So then why did 19 gain massive power from it? He went from being utterly helpless to being significantly superior. It doesn't take much to scare them. Aren't they vastly inferior to his base power?

While 19 got a great power up, he got considerable stronger due to Goku losing a lot of power after the KMHMH as well, as noted by 20:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P14.6
Context: after No.19 absorbs Goku’s attack
No.20: “Alright! No.19’s maximum power rating has greatly increased from what it was before! In contrast, Son Goku’s energy has fallen remarkably…!”

 

[p123]

More than one way to skin a cat. I think Piccolo being significantly weaker than the Super Saiyans falls in line with the story moreso than 19 Post being ridiculously weaker than Vegeta. What you are saying is all nice and good, but there's no way you can make 20 Post >> 19 Post and have any sort of realism here.

Show me your numbers for the situation and I will show you where you went wrong.

 

[ahill1]

#19 post 440
#20 post 510
Piccolo 600
Trunks 700
Goku 770
Vegeta 800

Maybe Vegeta's gap over #19 might seem excessive due to his tank not being all that impressive, but the chain of events really implies a gap of such magnitude.

 

[p123]

Weren't you the one who was going on and on about how much more superior 20 Post was over 19 Post? Yet you have 19 Post 86% of 20 Post. So much for that talk. Also, you failed to include Super Saiyan Goku ( Sick ). Try again. And 19 Post is 55% of Vegeta? I can't wait to see your gaps for Semi Cell vs Vegeta, which had a better tank than Vegeta had on 19 and oh I definitely can't wait for Gohan's gap on Cell. I'll be waiting.

 

[Six Trails]

Piccolo > #20 post > #19 post

Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[p123]

Show me

 

[ahill1]

Well not much superior, but at least a noticeable amount. I have #20 (pre) in the realms of #19 post. #20 post is already significantly above it.

 

[p123]

You haven't been close to showing that numerically. The way you are talking it should be something like this...

20 Post 100
19 Post 70
20 Pre 60

Your numbers fail to show this. And those are minimums.

 

[ahill1]

Like I said in my post, maybe the gap between 19 and Vegeta wouldn't be too well according to the way Vegeta tanked him, but there are clearly other things suggesting it's a massive gap, maybe greater than Gohan vs Cell. Are you gonna throw out those implications only because it "doesn't feel too well" with the gaps?

Vegeta vs 19 tank

Vegeta vs Semi Cell tank

Do you really see the latter as more impressive? With how much Vegeta moved against Semi Cell, almost falling into the ground? #19's tank seems more impressive without a doubt.

 

[p123]

The tanks are of similar value. The fights are much different, but only because Vegeta chooses it to be. Vegeta held back a lot of Cell. He was toying with him a lot, whereas Vegeta was a bit more serious with 19.

Your implications are wrong imo. I would not go against what I think is right, but when your numbers can't match up to what you think makes sense, there's generally a reason why.

 

[ahill1]

The fights are much different, but only because Vegeta chooses it to be. Vegeta held back a lot of Cell. He was toying with him a lot, whereas Vegeta was a bit more serious with 19.

If anything is the opposite imo. Vegeta's facial expression really suggests he is trying his hardest against Semi Perfect Cell. He is really putting a lot of effort:

While against 19... the only moment he seemingly used effort was when knocking him into the ground or ripping his hands off.

but when your numbers can't match up to what you think makes sense, there's generally a reason why.

What is there of so wrong with my numbers?

 

[p123]

Has nothing to do with the strain of Super Saiyan Grade 2?

 

[ahill1]

That's a possibility, though Vegeta doesn't seem to be using a great deal of effort when just dicking around iirc.

 

[p123]

I agree though, the tanks should be of similar level, yet the fights are not.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

SSJ Vegeta/Nineteen post- 2x (Vegeta was holding back)
ASSJ Vegeta/FP Semi Cell- 1.33x

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

Didn't Vegeta tank a Galick Gun from Cell, or was that filler?

 

[p123]

So now Vegeta is more powerful than 19 than Gohan was over Cell, yet drained so severely by 19 that he was weaker than 20 to fit your narrative? I'll pass.