Post your 3 year gap numbers

[Pyro]

Mecha Freeza

Son Kakarot: 5,000,000 / 250,000,000
Vegeta: 3,000,000
Trunks: 4,000,000 / 200,000,000
Piccolo: 2,800,000
Son Gohan: 1,800,000
Tenshinhan: 180,000
Krillin: 480,000
Yamaha: 90,000


Post 3 years

Son Kakarot: 8,000,000 / 400,000,000
Vegeta: 8,250,000 / 412,500,000
Trunks: 7,500,000 / 375,000,000
Piccolo: 290,000,000
Son Gohan: 6,000,000
Tenshinhan: 650,000
Krillin: 1,200,000
Yamaha: 250,000

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Supreme[/mention] I'm not trying to push any agenda, I'm just not cherry picking anything. Kuririn himself said he could never be as strong as any Ginyu Tokusentai member, so it stands to reason he won't be reaching such level within minutes. Even the very adverb Vegeta uses to describe their gain ("Steady") qualifies their power gains as something slow and gradual, rather than a sudden jump to the 100k house. Vegeta also considers Goku's 180k power to be his trump card as he told Kuririn, showing he doesn't expect even Gohan to reach such level.

Those are not "what if" scenarios, they are the regular scenarios. Throughout the story, it's made very clear that power is not the be all end all; strategies, numbers and techniques are shown to make a huge difference as well. Goku himself says it:

The conditions I've brought up aren't exceptions, they're very usual. Freeza is dozen of times stronger than the Saiyans yet feared they could take him down together, #18 can take any Z Fighter sans Vegeta out in a couple of blows but #17 believes she can't take all of them, the Z Fighters could've killed Nappa multiple times, etc. I can write all day about weaker characters doing impressive stuff to far stronger ones, whilst you're stuck without any evidence other than parroting "He's stronger", as if he had to be super powerful to throw a sneak attack or something.

It is very disappoiting because we are in opposite sides, SSJ2. I'm about as disappointed about your baseless views. But hey, it's not like we're supposed to be happy someone is trying to prove your point wrong, right?

Those were hopeless scenarios though. They put all their bets on them because they had no other choice (Piccolo himself said so against Raditz). Here's Vegeta being sure he can take Freeza.

But Gohan isn't. I don't have to post that statement again, do I?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Gohan said they got stronger themselves...

 

[GSM123]

Which I never denied.

 

[Pyro]

180k Goku is useless against Freeza. 30k Krillmaster isn't.

Get with the program.

Chapter: 290 (DBZ 96), P13.2
Context: after Goku says Vegeta can’t kill him, Gohan, and Kuririn
Vegeta: “Well, he’s right. There’s the matter of the dragonballs, and more than anything I need your power to fight Freeza…particularly Kakarot’s…”



Funny thing is, he valorizes Goku's 180k power more than Kuririn and Gohan's powers. And I thought you would side with me here, KP?

I should have read the statement more. But what's your opinion on these then?

Chapter: 282 (DBZ 88), P15.1
Context: talking to Goku
Vegeta: “You seem confident after becoming so overwhelmingly strong, but you absolutely can’t win against Freeza like this! Not unless you were immortal! You don’t understand a thing about how fearsome Freeza is!”

Chapter: 283 (DBZ 89), P1.1
Goku: “I think that I’ve gotten pretty strong, if I say so myself…But you’re saying that I still absolutely can’t beat Freeza…!?”
Vegeta: “That’s right. If you want to fight him, you’d better prepare yourself. Freeza’s strength is most likely far beyond your imagination…”

Is he saying Goku alone can't beat Freeza with a power of just 180k? And that that 180k power is beneficial to fighting Freeza as a squad?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

That was Gohan's statement.

 

[GSM123]

Context is key, KP. Not only he's talking with 60k Goku (As this chat takes place before Ginyu arrives), but he's refering to Goku fighting Freeza solo, as the idea to fight as a team doesn't come up until Vegeta suggests it later. And mind you Vegeta is not Freeza's rival yet.

 

[Pyro]

Context is key, KP. Not only he's talking with 60k Goku (As this chat takes place before Ginyu arrives), but he's refering to Goku fighting Freeza solo, as the idea to fight as a team doesn't come up until Vegeta suggests it later. And mind you Vegeta is not Freeza's rival yet.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dragon_Ball-buyao_daolian_ya/0.jp_Kanzenban/DRAGONBALLvol19/192-VAlHw.jpg

That page, yes?

 

[Ultimate Cell]

@Supreme I'm not trying to push any agenda, I'm just not cherry picking anything. Kuririn himself said he could never be as strong as any Ginyu Tokusentai member, so it stands to reason he won't be reaching such level within minutes. Even the very adverb Vegeta uses to describe their gain ("Steady") qualifies their power gains as something slow and gradual, rather than a sudden jump to the 100k house. Vegeta also considers Goku's 180k power to be his trump card as he told Kuririn, showing he doesn't expect even Gohan to reach such level.

Those are not "what if" scenarios, they are the regular scenarios. Throughout the story, it's made very clear that power is not the be all end all; strategies, numbers and techniques are shown to make a huge difference as well. Goku himself says it:

The conditions I've brought up aren't exceptions, they're very usual. Freeza is dozen of times stronger than the Saiyans yet feared they could take him down together, #18 can take any Z Fighter sans Vegeta out in a couple of blows but #17 believes she can't take all of them, the Z Fighters could've killed Nappa multiple times, etc. I can write all day about weaker characters doing impressive stuff to far stronger ones, whilst you're stuck without any evidence other than parroting "He's stronger", as if he had to be super powerful to throw a sneak attack or something.

It is very disappoiting because we are in opposite sides, SSJ2. I'm about as disappointed about your baseless views. But hey, it's not like we're supposed to be happy someone is trying to prove your point wrong, right?

Those were hopeless scenarios though. They put all their bets on them because they had no other choice (Piccolo himself said so against Raditz). Here's Vegeta being sure he can take Freeza.

But Gohan isn't. I don't have to post that statement again, do I?

Okay so you believe that power isn't everything but the humans have limits and stopped becoming strong even though one of the main themes in DB is growing stronger and breaking limits? Hell Goku himself stated that a low class dirt like him can surpass elites if they train hard enough. The humans went from being weaker than King Piccolo to being strong enough to fight raditz in a span of a year They don't have a magic cap to them. Why should Krillin statement be definitive proof? He was just putting himself down over not able to defeat any of them. He states Goku couldnt defeat Recooome but later on Goku proves him wrong.

 

[Kyo]

> context is key
> "we can win, the midgets got stronger"
> "oh u right, we can win, we got stronger"
> this conversation about not power brought to you by all nippon airways

i find it interesting that the falcon kick was being equated to some collaborative threesome earlier in this thread but i mean i guess i wouldn't really know what that's all about i always throw myself off the map whenever i try that move even when i'm sober

Kuririn himself said he could never be as strong as any Ginyu Tokusentai member

yeah but like did he look into a crystal ball or something like i'm not saying anything about anything i'm just asking a question chill

 

[Pyro]

That's wrong.

 

[SSJ2]

“Baseless views”



Well thanks for the laugh anyway, cya.

 

[GSM123]

Wait, so you’ve got evidence then? Let me see it bro.

 

[ahill]

Goku and Raditz is a different matter though. They knew that Raditz had a weakness which could be exploited -- his tail. So in that fight, skill (or a strategy, if you will) would be important. As far as Vegeta knows, Freeza has no weakness, besides his inability to sense chi. He doesn't highlight at any moment the use of strategy, it's all "these squirts powers have been increasing, we can win". The highlight is on their power, not on some sort of strategy that could be employed amidst the fight. Even if Vegeta wouldn't admit that to Freeza, why not have a panel in which he thinks for himself how Freeza is a fool for believing that power is everything? Why does Gohan say they got stronger and that's it? Because their power is enough to matter in a fight against an individual whose power exceeds 500k, something that doesn't make sense if their powers only amounted to... 30k.

"Steadily" increasing doesn't mean that their power didn't sky-rocked... It only means that they are still in the process of becoming stronger. Or we could say that it sky rocked earlier and now the pace of the growth has diminished... Hardly anything conclusive to contradict Vegeta's earlier statements.

Besides, Goku said that power isn't everything with a sweat drop on his face, which generally indicate the person making the statement isn't even all convict about the performed statement. And what did it happen right afterwards? Goku saw how they efforts would be useless unless they got Raditz's tail... And even so, their efforts would be useless weren't Piccolo's Makankosappo and Gohan's attack, with powers amounting to that of Raditz... Highlighting that even in that fight they needed to output power on Raditz's vicinity to win.

 

[SSJ2]

Wait, so you’ve got evidence then? Let me see it bro.

Nah. I dont care to play this game. You already are aware of the points that will be brought up and you will be acting like this regardless. I'm not wasting my time.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I can see the idea that 3 of them enough to take down Freeza with Vegeta himself being close enough to Freeza's power along with Gohan who has yet to peaked at that time. But this is not Super where teaming matters unless the villain is dumb enough to get killed like Raditz.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]ahill1[/mention] You just pointed out an weakness yourself - His inability to sense Ki. That is shown to be a huge disvantage when Goku manages to do some damage to 50% Freeza by firing blasts and then catching him from behind.

Anyways, I think you're kinda missing my point Ahill. When I point out that power isn't everything, I'm not throwing power away - It's just as much of a factor, perhaps evenbigger. The problem here is that you're acting as power were the be all end all, and Kuririn needed to be several times stronger than before just to attack Freeza from his back, when several examples (Even ones from the very Freeza fight) prove such logic wrong. Complex strategies won't be necessary because it's not like the Goku/Piccolo vs Raditz situation where they are ants fighting a giant, Vegeta himself can hold his own against Freeza and the duo would have his back.

Steady. I won't have to provide a definiton for "gradual", will I?

"Generally" doesn't mean always. It can also be to show something like e.g. Goku's anxiousness before fighting, for example. Even if you still insist to take Goku's words as a bluff given the enormous power gap between them, there are several scenarios where people pull of incredible feats despite a power gap existing due to factor not related to power.

Actually, power was less of a factor in the fight that you might think: The plan A was to exploit a weakness and kill him with a special technique (What requires great Ki control). Gohan's power was irrelevant given how not only it's debeatable whether Gohan is stronger than Raditz or not, but taking someone with their guard open is an unimpressive feat. Look at this very similiar situation, for example:

Spoiler

 

[ahill]

You just pointed out an weakness yourself - His inability to sense Ki. That is shown to be a huge disvantage when Goku manages to do some damage to 50% Freeza by firing blasts and then catching him from behind.

Then Vegeta would have pointed out how they could exploit such weakness. The fact that he merely highlights their powers and notices that such is enough to defeat him shows that a weakness wasn't as present as you would like. Goku only managed to lay damage on 50% Freeza when using the Kaioken x20 plus his KMHMH, which was strong enough to threaten that power Freeza was using. You might be thinking of the instance in which Freeza was only using a fraction of his power, pre 50%, but Goku promptly says no damage was inflicted:

http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-116-index-2-page-2.html

Anyways, I think you're kinda missing my point Ahill. When I point out that power isn't everything, I'm not throwing power away - It's just as much of a factor, perhaps evenbigger. The problem here is that you're acting as power were the be all end all, and Kuririn needed to be several times stronger than before just to attack Freeza from his back, when several examples (Even ones from the very Freeza fight) prove such logic wrong. Complex strategies won't be necessary because it's not like the Goku/Piccolo vs Raditz situation where they are ants fighting a giant, Vegeta himself can hold his own against Freeza and the duo would have his back.

I am not discarding the usage of strategies, I am only noticing that power is the most important factor in general. You're arguing that Kuririn doesn't have to be in the same general vicinity to be of any help. He can be 10x weaker than Freeza and Vegeta will still mention his power and highlight such as an important factor... which doesn't make sense. Look at what Kuririn and Gohan were to base Goku when he was about to fight final form Freeza:

http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-114-index-2-page-7.html

Piccolo considered everyone there -- himself included, collateral damage. So there goes the "you can be as weak as it gets and still be an add in in a fight". Why'd Kuririn there be collateral damage when he is about ~60x weaker than Freeza (following your numbers), yet be of any help when he is 10x weaker? That's appealing to random logic imo.

Steady. I won't have to provide a definiton for "gradual", will I?

Vegeta's statement is also in the present. Then like I said their powers might have Sky Rocketed before and then be in a more gradual uprising now, the moment Vegeta performed the statement.

Btw:

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P10.5
Freeza: “I don’t believe stupid legends like the Super Saiyan, the strongest in history, but I don’t feel too good…The squirt and Vegeta really are steadily getting stronger, after all…”

According to you, Gohan was like 30k before... and then his post Zenkai self surely surpassed Ginyu by a lot for him to press 3rd form freeza the way he did... and yet Freeza used "steadily" to describe how he was continuously getting stronger.

"Generally" doesn't mean always. It can also be to show something like e.g. Goku's anxiousness before fighting, for example. Even if you still insist to take Goku's words as a bluff given the enormous power gap between them, there are several scenarios where people pull of incredible feats despite a power gap existing due to factor not related to power.

In that case he seemed to be trying to convince himself that power isn't everything, a counter to Raditz's considerably stronger energy. When Raditz attacked for the first time, he realized they had no other alternative but to get his tail. Raditz can't sense chi either, but it didn't matter in the fight, they were as outclassed as they could.

Actually, power was less of a factor in the fight that you might think: The plan A was to exploit a weakness and kill him with a special technique (What requires great Ki control). Gohan's power was irrelevant given how not only it's debeatable whether Gohan is stronger than Raditz or not, but taking someone with their guard open is an unimpressive feat. Look at this very similiar situation, for example:

Of course powers were a factor. It doesn't matter whether you think Raditz was surpassed, what matters is that Gohan was still strong enough to lay such amount of damage on him... something Goku and Piccolo wouldn't be able to, sans Makankosappo. The point is that power in Raditz's vicinity was still needed to defeat him. The fight was still summarized mostly by power.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]ahill1[/mention] not writting my response right now, but I'd like to correct something. When I said "Steady. I won't have to provide a definiton for "gradual", will I?", I was going to post a definiton but then forgot. Here's the definiton:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pt/dicionario/ingles/steadily

Basically, it's a synonym with gradual. An outrageous power jump like the one you have suggested cannot be classified as steady/gradual by any means. As for Gohan's situation, mind you Freeza didn't get a grasp of his power until Gohan gets enraged an pummels him, so the steady growth would be in comparison to that ~900k enraged Gohan rather than Initial Gohan.

 

[ahill]

@ahill1 not writting my response right now, but I'd like to correct something. When I said "Steady. I won't have to provide a definiton for "gradual", will I?", I was going to post a definiton but then forgot. Here's the definiton:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pt/dicionario/ingles/steadily

Basically, it's a synonym with gradual. An outrageous power jump like the one you have suggested cannot be classified as steady/gradual by any means. As for Gohan's situation, mind you Freeza didn't get a grasp of his power until Gohan gets enraged an pummels him, so the steady growth would be in comparison to that ~900k enraged Gohan rather than Initial Gohan.

It still was a rather decent jump in power -- going from ~900k to ~2,000,000. If Freeza can consider that a "steady growth", I don't see the reason for Vegeta not to consider Gohan and Kuririn's jump in power a "steady" growth". Freeza didn't mention merely Gohan, either. He said both Gohan and Vegeta were steadily rising in power... and he knew how Vegeta was no match for the Ginyu Tokusentai moments earlier. Vegeta went from < 40,000 to ~500,000 in some moments -- which is still described as "steady".

Besides, bear in mind that we are merely reading a translation off the Japanese dialogue. We'd have to check the JP word for further clarification.