Pre-Majin SS2 Vegeta compared to Cell Games SS2 Gohan

[Void]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention] I made a topic because I want to see you explain your views on this.

 

[The_Authority]

I'm not a guy that compares fights and thinks about fighting powers, etc. So, I'm going to base this on what "feels" right (which is kind of how Akira Toriyama wrote the series, so I'm not exactly on the wrong path here).

We know that Gohan was weaker in the Boo arc than in the Cell Games, as Vegeta either said it or suggested it. Basically, Gohan has "slacked off" on his training.

Goku and Vegeta are extremely competitive in nature. I'd say that the both of them saw Gohan's power and would not allow themselves to be bested by him. Goku went on to Other World to surpass Gohan clearly (as he achieved Super Saiyan 3). Meanwhile, there's no way that Vegeta wouldn't try to do everything in his power to surpass Gohan from the Cell Games. It's been seven years and we see that Vegeta still trains. That, plus Vegeta's aggravation with Gohan not keeping up with his training, suggests that Vegeta still puts a lot of weight on training.

I'd say that with Vegeta's competitive nature, him still very involved with training, and it being seven years after the Cell Games, I don't see Goku and Vegeta not surpassing Gohan from back then. I'd say if anything, Super Saiyan Vegeta (or Super Saiyan 2, I guess, even though we do not see him as Super Saiyan 2 before the Babidi power-up) is probably on the level that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was during the Cell Games, if not more (but certainly not less). However, Goku was clearly more powerful than Vegeta, in my opinion, significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games. That's why Vegeta allowed Babidi to take over his mind, giving him a power boost to match him up to Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

 

[GSM123]

Pretty much what The Authority said. Vegeta kept training after the Cell Games, and this time the plateau he wanted to reach was Kid Gohan's power, not Goku's. He was eager to fight Gohan without knowledge he was weakened, believing he was only rusty on his skills. He also claimed three times to be stronger than Gohan:

Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Vegeta says Gohan is pathetic, even more now that he's weaker. This strongly implies that Kid Gohan himself would also be pathetic to Vegeta.

Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy…”
While this one is from after they've sensed Teen Gohan at the Budokai, Vegeta's unsureness about Gohan slacking off (It seems like he got carried away...) and Goku asking if Gohan has been training would imply Gohan's showcase of SSJ2 at the Budokai was retconed. This is supported by Gohan not using SSJ2 against Dabra and Kibito missing Gohan's "Incredible power" according to Kaioshin.

The one thing that would imply Vegeta is still beneath Kid Gohan is Piccolo's statement about Majin Vegeta (Who's >> Pre Majin Vegeta) being barely stronger than Kid Gohan. It seems more like a matter of Piccolo's memory fading away after 7 years though, given how Vegeta, who's obsessed with power levels and would think about Gohan's power everyday on his training, had no doubts about Goku surpassing Kid Gohan.

I don't think the difference between them is that big though. Something like the power gap between Pre Rosat Vegeta and Trunks or Gohan and Kuririn when they both were fighting the Ginyu Force.

 

[SIAD]

Pretty much what The Authority said. Vegeta kept training after the Cell Games, and this time the plateau he wanted to reach was Kid Gohan's power, not Goku's. He was eager to fight Gohan without knowledge he was weakened, believing he was only rusty on his skills. He also claimed three times to be stronger than Gohan:

Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Vegeta says Gohan is pathetic, even more now that he's weaker. This strongly implies that Kid Gohan himself would also be pathetic to Vegeta.

Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy…”
While this one is from after they've sensed Teen Gohan at the Budokai, Vegeta's unsureness about Gohan slacking off (It seems like he got carried away...) and Goku asking if Gohan has been training would imply Gohan's showcase of SSJ2 at the Budokai was retconed. This is supported by Gohan not using SSJ2 against Dabra and Kibito missing Gohan's "Incredible power" according to Kaioshin.

The one thing that would imply Vegeta is still beneath Kid Gohan is Piccolo's statement about Majin Vegeta (Who's >> Pre Majin Vegeta) being barely stronger than Kid Gohan. It seems more like a matter of Piccolo's memory fading away after 7 years though, given how Vegeta, who's obsessed with power levels and would think about Gohan's power everyday on his training, had no doubts about Goku surpassing Kid Gohan.

I don't think the difference between them is that big though. Something like the power gap between Pre Rosat Vegeta and Trunks.

Of course, Piccolo's statement about "Majin Vegeta is just as strong as Kid Gohan, no, it's even stronger", you can perfectly refer to the Kid Gohan SSJ2 (Wounded + Outbreak of Final Rage).

  I think that Kid Gohan SSj2, being very weak, used a little less than 50% of his power, but at all times he had an impulse of rage when he launched his Super Hamehameha against SPC's Solar Kamehameha, but SPC's Solar Kamehameha would have beaten very easily. Gohan's.

  I have a thing like this:

SPC = 97.65625
(Solar Kamehameha) = 292.96875

Kid Gohan SSJ2 = 100
(Weakened) = 48
(Weakened + Enraged) = 84
(Weakened + Enraged + Super Kamehameha) = 252
(Weakened + Final Explosion) = 120
(Weakened + Final Explosion + Super Kamehameha) = 360

  Arc Boo

Vegeta SSJ2 = 102.4

Majin Vegeta SSJ2 = 128

Goku SSJ2 = 128

Gohan SSJ2 (Hypothetical) = 72.

 

[GSM123]

Nah i don't think it makes much sense for Piccolo and Vegeta to be talking about different Gohans. If Piccolo is talking about Gohan's power when he vaporized Cell, then so should Vegeta. Piccolo forgetting it makes more sense IMO.

My numbers would be something more like this:

Spoiler

Cell (Zenkai): 625
~ Solar Kamehameha: 2,500

SSJ2 Kid Gohan: 675
~ Injured and unmotivated: 300
~ Motivated: 450
~ Super Kamehameha: 1,800
~ Super Kamehameha (Final Burst): 3,600

SSJ2 Teen Gohan: 540

SSJ2 Vegeta: 720
~ Majin: 900

SSJ2 Goku: 900

 

[Void]

Doesn't Piccolo imply the difference between SS2 Majin Vegeta and CG SS2 Gohan wasn't that big?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Saiyaman thinks Piccolo forgot. But yeah, the statement would mean Vegeta isn't above Gohan by a wide margin. Naturally this would mean he's comfortably weaker prior to the spell.

I still don't think Pre-Majin Vegeta is all that. The only thing that's a given is him surpassing Teen Gohan since he states it.

The fact that Vegeta made note of Super Saiyan 2 Goku against Yakon surpassing Teen Gohan (the power that made Vegeta submit to Bobbidi) and Super Saiyan 2 Goku's Full-Power surpassing Kid Gohan tells me he's somewhere in the middle. If Vegeta was already above Kid Gohan, it seems unnecessary for him to even point out that Goku surpassed him. Goku was above Vegeta, so it'd be pretty obvious that his highest power would be above Kid Gohan's.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

You could just say they were equal.

 

[Void]

Saiyaman thinks Piccolo forgot. But yeah, the statement would mean Vegeta isn't above Gohan by a wide margin. Naturally this would mean he's comfortably weaker prior to the spell.

I still don't think Pre-Majin Vegeta is all that. The only thing that's a given is him surpassing Teen Gohan since he states it.

The fact that Vegeta made note of Super Saiyan 2 Goku against Yakon surpassing Teen Gohan (the power that made Vegeta submit to Bobbidi) and Super Saiyan 2 Goku's Full-Power surpassing Kid Gohan tells me he's somewhere in the middle. If Vegeta was already above Kid Gohan, it seems unnecessary for him to even point out that Goku surpassed him. Goku was above Vegeta, so it'd be pretty obvious that his highest power would be above Kid Gohan's.

The only thing I can find that would put pre-Majin Vegeta on Kid Gohan's level is the first interaction between the two in the Boo arc. Vegeta says there was a large gap between their powers 7 years ago, but asks what it would be like now? This question is raised by Vegeta before we're told Gohan had lost power.

 

[Kyo]

I would like someone to lay out all the arguments for Gohan >> Vegeta (or, perhaps, the stance that Vegeta shouldn't be equal to or stronger than him at the very least)

I used to be on that side of the fence, but it's been a while

 

[Void]

I would like someone to lay out all the arguments for Gohan >> Vegeta (or, perhaps, the stance that Vegeta shouldn't be equal to or stronger than him at the very least)

I used to be on that side of the fence, but it's been a while

The evidence for CG Gohan >> pre-Majin Vegeta seems pretty scarce. The only two comparisons made to CG Gohan are when Vegeta tells Goku "As I expected, power greater than Gohan's back then." and when Piccolo hesitantly points out Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan. The only thing you can really take away from this is SS2 Goku >/> pre-Majin SS2 Vegeta. Just how much stronger is Goku in comparison to CG Gohan?

I personally think there's a bit more evidence pointing towards Vegeta being close to CG Gohan before the Majin charm. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Vegeta was already willing to question whether or not he can beat Gohan before it had been established Gohan had lost power. Next there's Vegeta claiming he'd be in a superior position at the 25th regardless of Super Saiyan. Then I'd like to take into account Vegeta not being worried about Dabura despite Goku saying he's about as strong as Cell. The Dabura stuff only matters if you believe he battled SS2 Gohan. Lastly I'd reiterate that Vegeta says he expected SS2 Goku to be superior to CG Gohan. There isn't an issue with pre-Majin Vegeta being close to CG Gohan if the former resolved himself based on the notion of Goku being superior to CG Gohan.

How about:
SS2 Galu/Majin Vegeta - 115
CG Gohan - 100
pre-Majin Vegeta - ~95
SPC - 90-95

 

[Pyro]

I think it all lies on Vegeta believing Gohan had slacked off. He didn't need it confirmed to know Gohan had gotten weaker. All he didn't know was how much weaker. But going from 100 to 98 still helps regardless.

 

[Kyo]

Then is there an issue if he's = Gohan? Or >=?

 

[Flame]

Pretty much what The Authority said. Vegeta kept training after the Cell Games, and this time the plateau he wanted to reach was Kid Gohan's power, not Goku's. He was eager to fight Gohan without knowledge he was weakened, believing he was only rusty on his skills. He also claimed three times to be stronger than Gohan:

Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Vegeta says Gohan is pathetic, even more now that he's weaker. This strongly implies that Kid Gohan himself would also be pathetic to Vegeta.

Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy…”
While this one is from after they've sensed Teen Gohan at the Budokai, Vegeta's unsureness about Gohan slacking off (It seems like he got carried away...) and Goku asking if Gohan has been training would imply Gohan's showcase of SSJ2 at the Budokai was retconed. This is supported by Gohan not using SSJ2 against Dabra and Kibito missing Gohan's "Incredible power" according to Kaioshin.

The one thing that would imply Vegeta is still beneath Kid Gohan is Piccolo's statement about Majin Vegeta (Who's >> Pre Majin Vegeta) being barely stronger than Kid Gohan. It seems more like a matter of Piccolo's memory fading away after 7 years though, given how Vegeta, who's obsessed with power levels and would think about Gohan's power everyday on his training, had no doubts about Goku surpassing Kid Gohan.

I don't think the difference between them is that big though. Something like the power gap between Pre Rosat Vegeta and Trunks or Gohan and Kuririn when they both were fighting the Ginyu Force.

So this is what perfection looks like.

 

[Void]

I think it all lies on Vegeta believing Gohan had slacked off. He didn't need it confirmed to know Gohan had gotten weaker. All he didn't know was how much weaker. But going from 100 to 98 still helps regardless.

Chapter: 426 (DBZ 232), P4.2-3
Context: Vegeta talks to Gohan
Vegeta: “At that time there was a large gap between our powers…But what about now? While you’ve been enjoying peace, I’ve continued to train.”
Bulma: “That’s right! He doesn’t work one bit! Just like your father! I guess Saiyans just don’t work.”
Note: "that time" was the Cell Games, presumably.

I don't see where it's really implied Gohan had gotten weaker. Vegeta calls him 'soft' or something like that, but I don't see how that definitively merits Gohan having lost power.

On a side note, is this the only case of actual power regression in the manga? I can't recall another time where a character has been stated to have lost power over a time skip.

 

[Kyo]

“Your body’s gotten rusty. No matter how peaceful it may be, you should still train just in case.”

You could take this^ to mean he's expected Gohan to have gotten weaker

 

[Void]

Fair enough, but why doesn't Vegeta just come out and say it? He had no issue saying it around Gohan at the 25th TB and Babidi's ship. I'm just not getting a strong message of "Gohan has lost a lot of power." like we're told not so long after. Though I'm not arguing Vegeta > CG Gohan here. I just don't think he's too far off.

 

[SSJ2]

Why would Vegeta have no basis for assuming that Gohan got weaker? He literally said that Gohan looks out of shape. I think that alone is grounds for Vegeta thinking that Gohan's power had weakened. Zero training + looking out of shape = deterioration. I don't see why he'd have any reason to assume Gohan didn't get weaker...

 

[Evil Vegeta]

He probably didn't come out and say it because he wanted to wait and actually see Gohan display his highest power first. That's why we see Vegeta make note of Gohan's decline in power when he goes Super Saiyan 2 and not Super Saiyan. The lesser forms don't tell him the whole story. Same applies to Vegeta's realization that Super Saiyan 2 Goku was superior to him despite seeing his Base and Super Saiyan in action.

 

[Pyro]

He knows Gohan hasn't trained. Being weaker is a given.