Pre-Majin SS2 Vegeta compared to Cell Games SS2 Gohan

[Void]

How? All he can tell is Gohan has slacked off. He still questions whether or not he is superior and then claims superiority on the plane when going to the tournament. He hasn't seen Gohan's power at all. He makes no definitive statement about Gohan being weaker until he turns SS2 at the 25th. It's not like Vegeta says something like "As I thought, he's a lot weaker." Or something along those lines like when he said he expected Goku to be stronger.

 

[Pyro]

I dunno. You're right, I give up on the matter.

 

[Void]

I dunno. You're right, I give up on the matter.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Vegeta is weaker by a semi-noticeable margin imo. Probably equal to Super Perfect Cell.

 

[SSJ2]

How? All he can tell is Gohan has slacked off. He still questions whether or not he is superior and then claims superiority on the plane when going to the tournament. He hasn't seen Gohan's power at all. He makes no definitive statement about Gohan being weaker until he turns SS2 at the 25th. It's not like Vegeta says something like "As I thought, he's a lot weaker." Or something along those lines like when he said he expected Goku to be stronger.

If Gohan's power hadn't deteriorated, I really doubt that he'd look so out of shape and soft.

 

[Kyo]

Fair enough, but why doesn't Vegeta just come out and say it?

If I were to take "your body's gotten rusty" as "Gohan's gotten weaker," i.e. when Vegeta says that Gohan's body has gotten rusty he means that he has gotten weaker, then he has come out and said it. Just not the way you'd prefer to hear it.

Or maybe he means something else, who knows. Considering that Gohan does end up weaker I'd like to think that it was simply hinted at in this scene first. That being said, Vegeta obviously has no idea how much Gohan has regressed (and is surprised at the degree to which he has) so it doesn't make a world of difference to me anyway if someone chooses to take it one way or the other. It mostly means he can't be >>Kid Gohan, but a lot of things lead to that conclusion anyway.

It's not like Vegeta says something like "As I thought, he's a lot weaker." Or something along those lines like when he said he expected Goku to be stronger.

There's no need for him to qualify the statement with that when he has already told us/hinted at what he was expecting in a previous scene. The reason he did so with Goku is because in that case, his thoughts regarding Goku's strength had not been made explicit to the reader up until that point, so Toriyama is telling us what he was thinking before. With Gohan there is no need to do the same, as we already know.

 

[Void]

Fair enough, but why doesn't Vegeta just come out and say it?

If I were to take "your body's gotten rusty" as "Gohan's gotten weaker," i.e. when Vegeta says that Gohan's body has gotten rusty he means that he has gotten weaker, then he has come out and said it. Just not the way you'd prefer to hear it.

Or maybe he means something else, who knows. Considering that Gohan does end up weaker I'd like to think that it was simply hinted at in this scene first. That being said, Vegeta obviously has no idea how much Gohan has regressed (and is surprised at the degree to which he has) so it doesn't make a world of difference to me anyway if someone chooses to take it one way or the other. It mostly means he can't be >>Kid Gohan, but a lot of things lead to that conclusion anyway.

This is more along the lines of what I was trying to get at, but maybe I didn't word it too well. Vegeta can't just take one look at Gohan and determine what amount of power he has. If that were the case then Vegeta would've already known he was Goku's inferior at the 25th TB.

And as Pyro (who sarcastically wrote me off here) said before, Gohan could've gone from a 100 to a 98 and that still benefits Vegeta. There's no way of knowing just how much power Gohan had lost before he displays his "full power" before Kibito (Kaioshin later says Kibito has no clue about Gohan's awesome power, but I won't go down that rabbit hole) at the 25th TB.

That is the reason I take that quote I posted before from Vegeta as him suggesting he's within CG Gohan's realm, though I do believe he is weaker than CG Gohan. Doesn't he even think less of Gohan when he fights Dabra?

It's not like Vegeta says something like "As I thought, he's a lot weaker." Or something along those lines like when he said he expected Goku to be stronger.

There's no need for him to qualify the statement with that when he has already told us/hinted at what he was expecting in a previous scene. The reason he did so with Goku is because in that case, his thoughts regarding Goku's strength had not been made explicit to the reader up until that point, so Toriyama is telling us what he was thinking before. With Gohan there is no need to do the same, as we already know.

Fair enough.

 

[Kyo]

I believe he does think less of Gohan during that fight, but that could just be him playing up his abrasiveness to get Babidi to notice him.

What I wanna know is whether anyone considers it problematic to have Vegeta = or >= Kid Gohan, or if it’s just personal preference

 

[sei'taer]

That's why Vegeta allowed Babidi to take over his mind, giving him a power boost to match him up to Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Vegeta doesn't know how strong goku's SSJ2 is until they fight.

 

[Pyro]

I didn't sarcastically write off shit, you fat lard neck feather dick faggot. I knew I needed to get out before embarrassing myself and I managed to do both. Take your fucking W and eat a DICK.

Also, Vegeta >= Gohan is sacrilege, and Vegeta ~ Gohan is as pointless as condoms.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Void]

Yeah, you would have to put Goku well above CG Gohan to make pre-Majin Vegeta >= work, and I don't think that's implied at all.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

That's why Vegeta allowed Babidi to take over his mind, giving him a power boost to match him up to Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Vegeta doesn't know how strong goku's SSJ2 is until they fight.

But he knows Goku is comfortably ahead. That's why he said the display against Yakon made him realize there was still a huge difference between them. Goku's burst was either above Vegeta by a huge amount or close to his full-power.

 

[GSM123]

Is there even a reason to assume the burst wasn't Goku's max?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The reason why I assumed it wasn't his max is because he seems to specify the levels.

Vs Yakon: Above Teen Gohan
Vs Vegeta: Above Kid Gohan

You could also go the VOR route and say it happened so quickly that he couldn't fully comprehend it. What we know is Vegeta was able to gauge enough of it to realize it was high enough to outclass Teen Gohan and himself. Since he expected Goku's max to >Kid Gohan, I'm inclined to believe Vegeta assumed Goku hadn't showed all of his power.

 

[Void]

The reason why I assumed it wasn't his max is because he seems to specify the levels.

Vs Yakon: Above Teen Gohan
Vs Vegeta: Above Kid Gohan

You could also go the VOR route and say it happened so quickly that he couldn't fully comprehend it. What we know is Vegeta was able to gauge enough of it to realize it was high enough to outclass Teen Gohan and himself. Since he expected Goku's max to >Kid Gohan, I'm inclined to believe Vegeta assumed Goku hadn't showed all of his power.

Or maybe that quick burst was above CG Gohan and Goku's transformation later just confirmed it. That would also fit the "As expected" thing.

 

[GSM123]

Either way, Pre Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The reason why I assumed it wasn't his max is because he seems to specify the levels.

Vs Yakon: Above Teen Gohan
Vs Vegeta: Above Kid Gohan

You could also go the VOR route and say it happened so quickly that he couldn't fully comprehend it. What we know is Vegeta was able to gauge enough of it to realize it was high enough to outclass Teen Gohan and himself. Since he expected Goku's max to >Kid Gohan, I'm inclined to believe Vegeta assumed Goku hadn't showed all of his power.

Or maybe that quick burst was above CG Gohan and Goku's transformation later just confirmed it. That would also fit the "As expected" thing.

Nothing wrong with that interpretation. Personally speaking, I prefer the idea of the burst not being Goku's full-power. I also see the "As expected" as Vegeta having a level in mind that he was expecting Goku to eclipse and just taking note of it. Between Goku saying he'll go straight to his max, Vegeta saying he can't wait to see the results of his Otherworld training, and immediately stating Goku>Kid Gohan, I'm inclined to believe that was Goku's first time bringing out his true power.

Overall, Kid Gohan is still above Vegeta imo.

 

[Six Trails]

Wouldn't it be kind of redundant for Vegeta to even mention Goku surpassing Gohan if he already did? There wouldn't be anything to "expect" since he flat-out knew Goku was stronger than him.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah, I don't really see a point of him mentioning that if he was already above Gohan.

"As expected, you're stronger than Gohan was back then. Pretty obvious since I already am myself...so naturally you should be." Like you said, there's nothing to expect in something that would've been clear from the get go.

I feel like the statement is there to show us that, while Kid Gohan was the previous standard, Goku and Majin Vegeta were now the new standard.

The only Gohan we know Vegeta is definitely above is Teen Gohan.

 

[GSM123]

Since when has Vegeta been expecting Goku to be stronger than Kid Gohan though? Did he suspect for everyone to have surpassed Gohan from the begining or did only realize that upon seeing Goku's Burst? The way he's looking forward to a fight against Goku more than he is against Gohan makes me think he at least expected for them to be all on the same vicinity.