Pre-Majin SS2 Vegeta compared to Cell Games SS2 Gohan

[Evil Vegeta]

Based on another translation, Vegeta expected Goku to reach Super Saiyan 2. Just not as powerful as he ended up being. Seeing as how the display against Yakon was a shocking revelation that the difference between was still significant, that's probably when he started expecting Goku to go above Kid Gohan.

 

[Void]

Pretty sure Japanese Z anime has Vegeta say the "as expected" line.

 

[GSM123]

Based on another translation, Vegeta expected Goku to reach Super Saiyan 2. Just not as powerful as he ended up being. Seeing as how the display against Yakon was a shocking revelation that the difference between was still significant, that's probably when he started expecting Goku to go above Kid Gohan.

What translation though? The way Vegeta reacts to SSJ2 Goku makes it look like he did not expect for Goku to access SSJ2.

I think it's just something he suspected from the begining. He considered it possible, and as the story progressed he became more suspicious of it until he could finally confirm Goku has surpassed Gohan.

 

[Void]

Based on another translation, Vegeta expected Goku to reach Super Saiyan 2. Just not as powerful as he ended up being. Seeing as how the display against Yakon was a shocking revelation that the difference between was still significant, that's probably when he started expecting Goku to go above Kid Gohan.

What translation though? The way Vegeta reacts to SSJ2 Goku makes it look like he did not expect for Goku to access SSJ2.

I think it's just something he suspected from the begining. He considered it possible, and as the story progressed he became more suspicious of it until he could finally confirm Goku has surpassed Gohan.

Both Herms and the Japanese anime subbed have Vegeta saying "As expected" so it's pretty straightforward Vegeta was expecting Goku > CG Gohan.

 

[Kyo]

Yeah, you would have to put Goku well above CG Gohan to make pre-Majin Vegeta >= work, and I don't think that's implied at all.

Why? And why would being >= as opposed to <= even make that big of a difference in this regard anyway? If anything is gonna prevent you from believing >= instead of <= it’s not this. >= versus <<, maybe.

 

[Void]

Yeah, you would have to put Goku well above CG Gohan to make pre-Majin Vegeta >= work, and I don't think that's implied at all.

Why? And why would being >= as opposed to <= even make that big of a difference in this regard anyway? If anything is gonna prevent you from believing >= instead of <= it’s not this. >= versus <<, maybe.

I dont think Vegeta would've resolved himself if it was something like;
SS2 Goku - 110-115
pre-Majin Vegeta - 105
CG Gohan - 100

I would have to bump up Goku and I don't think a difference that big is implied.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Based on another translation, Vegeta expected Goku to reach Super Saiyan 2. Just not as powerful as he ended up being. Seeing as how the display against Yakon was a shocking revelation that the difference between was still significant, that's probably when he started expecting Goku to go above Kid Gohan.

What translation though? The way Vegeta reacts to SSJ2 Goku makes it look like he did not expect for Goku to access SSJ2.

I think it's just something he suspected from the begining. He considered it possible, and as the story progressed he became more suspicious of it until he could finally confirm Goku has surpassed Gohan.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=956663#p956663

Basically, the statement can be translated two ways:

"So, that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall?...The Super Saiyan wall..."

or

"So as expected, that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall?...The Super Saiyan wall..."

 

[Kyo]

Yeah, you would have to put Goku well above CG Gohan to make pre-Majin Vegeta >= work, and I don't think that's implied at all.

Why? And why would being >= as opposed to <= even make that big of a difference in this regard anyway? If anything is gonna prevent you from believing >= instead of <= it’s not this. >= versus <<, maybe.

I dont think Vegeta would've resolved himself if it was something like;
SS2 Goku - 110-115
pre-Majin Vegeta - 105
CG Gohan - 100

I would have to bump up Goku and I don't think a difference that big is implied.

Two things:

1- I think he would have, because Goku still beats him. I still think the gap is bigger than that, but yeah.
2- I believe the question here would be, what implies a smaller difference? Piccolo? I just don't think that line means what everyone thinks it means. People are unsure about definitive gaps all the time, e.g. Krillin on Vegeta/Zarbon, and we had already gotten a definitive Goku vs Kid Gohan statement previously anyway. Piccolo's statement when taken so literally would suggest like a 3% difference anyway. In general when you're far away from a particular plane of power you don't realize much of the differences between people in that plane, and Piccolo even has the disadvantage of not having Kid Gohan in front of him to compare. It could be "perhaps he's stronger, it's been 7 years since I last saw"...it's not as though he'd have the exact power level committed to memory.

I wouldn't personally have Vegeta stronger though, I'd have him equal, although I think that having him marginally higher for the hell of it doesn't necessarily pose any real issues if you felt like putting more stock in all his confidence during this arc. I would rather have Vegeta equal to Gohan than weaker though to stay in-line with his assumed superiority better, which doesn't contradict Piccolo's line unless I choose to view it in such a way.

 

[Void]

Why? And why would being >= as opposed to <= even make that big of a difference in this regard anyway? If anything is gonna prevent you from believing >= instead of <= it’s not this. >= versus <<, maybe.

I dont think Vegeta would've resolved himself if it was something like;
SS2 Goku - 110-115
pre-Majin Vegeta - 105
CG Gohan - 100

I would have to bump up Goku and I don't think a difference that big is implied.

Two things:

1- I think he would have, because Goku still beats him. I still think the gap is bigger than that, but yeah.

Where do you have Goku/Vegeta at the Cell Games and do you have it changing over the 7 yer break?

2- I believe the question here would be, what implies a smaller difference? Piccolo? I just don't think that line means what everyone thinks it means. People are unsure about definitive gaps all the time, e.g. Krillin on Vegeta/Zarbon, and we had already gotten a definitive Goku vs Kid Gohan statement previously anyway. Piccolo's statement when taken so literally would suggest like a 3% difference anyway. In general when you're far away from a particular plane of power you don't realize much of the differences between people in that plane, and Piccolo even has the disadvantage of not having Kid Gohan in front of him to compare. It could be "perhaps he's stronger, it's been 7 years since I last saw"...it's not as though he'd have the exact power level committed to memory.

Well, two comparisons to CG Gohan always made me feel like Majin Vegeta/SS2 Goku weren't that far above him. I always thought the line from Piccolo was there to reinforce what Vegeta said about Goku's power, but give us a bit of a ceiling for Goku. I do believe CG Gohan and Boo arc Goku aren't that far apart.

I wouldn't personally have Vegeta stronger though, I'd have him equal, although I think that having him marginally higher for the hell of it doesn't necessarily pose any real issues if you felt like putting more stock in all his confidence during this arc. I would rather have Vegeta equal to Gohan than weaker though to stay in-line with his assumed superiority better, which doesn't contradict Piccolo's line unless I choose to view it in such a way.

I believe I posted it earlier in the thread, but I've always had this Vegeta be about a 95 to Gohan's 100. They're pretty close, but I won't complain about them being equals. Putting pre-Majin Vegeta above him still feels weird. Vegeta seemed to hold CG Gohan in high regards.

 

[ahill1]

Kid Gohan > pre Majin Vegeta to me.

 

[GSM123]

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15533&p=854349&hilit=rusty#p854349

Just saving this for future reference, and i guess this topic is appropiate, since it further solidies my beliefs on Kid Gohan vs Vegeta (Pre).

 

[Victorious]

Vegeta loses. He knew Gohan had been enjoying peace and he still didn't outright say he could beat Gohan.

 

[Kyo]

He said he was superior on the plane tho

 

[Victorious]

He said he was superior on the plane tho

Well yeah that's true. But does he know Gohan's power? My guess is he expected a decrease and was just shocked at the huge decrease.

 

[p123]

Goku 100
Kid Gohan 90
SPC 85
Vegeta 80
Teen Gohan 60

Kid Gohans power is still impressive in the Buu Saga. Vegeta has caught up a whole lot but isn't there yet.

 

[Pyro]

Blasphemy. How dare you belittle Vegeta by not having him equal to Kid Gohan at the very worst. Idiots.

 

[p123]

Hes not though. Vegeta isn't sure how he matches up against an untrained Gohan. Goku isn't much stronger than Kid Gohan. Vegeta sells his soul to be on the same level as someone who isn't much stronger than Kid Gohan.

 

[Victorious]

Damn P...you got Kid Gohan 1.5x Teen Gohan. I lean toward more 1.33x range but it could be that big

 

[p123]

I have Teen Gohan at 75% of Kid Gohan. I have Teen Gohan at 66% of Raged Kid Gohan. The rage boost adds to that loss of power.

 

[Kyo]

He said he was superior on the plane tho

Well yeah that's true. But does he know Gohan's power? My guess is he expected a decrease and was just shocked at the huge decrease.

Yeah he could expect a decrease. I just wouldn’t put him lower than <= so there’s less room for error because he can’t know to what extent that decrease is. = to kid Gohan eliminates all room for error while still making sense of Vegeta’s uncertainty the month(?) prior to the tournament.