Pre-Majin SSJ2 Vegeta
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I think Vegeta is considerably stronger than SPC. Cell was pretty much a lame joke in the Boo Saga.
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Consolation prize? If he can't beat Gohan then he has to beat someone to make me happy, and the only other option left is SPC.
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Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this, but Dabra is said to be on Cell's level. And Vegeta doesn't really seem too concerned about himself or the chance that he might have to fight at some point. I would assume Vegeta would be confident in that fight, so anyone who takes that statement to mean Dabra>SPC could make an inference that Vegeta would be above that.
Edit: Not saying I believe Dabra>SPC is a widely held opinion, but those peeps do exist.
Edit: Not saying I believe Dabra>SPC is a widely held opinion, but those peeps do exist.
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I think Goku is referencing a lower power version of Cell. Goku and Vegeta casually stated that Dabra wasn't much and that he was likely Cell's level, but Vegeta still had to confirm that Goku could use SSJ2.
If Dabra was SPC level there would be no need to confirm this fact when both Goku and Vegeta were confident in beating him.
If Dabra was SPC level there would be no need to confirm this fact when both Goku and Vegeta were confident in beating him.
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There is no reason to assume that Goku was comparing Dabura to a suppressed version of SPC.
Maybe Vegeta suspected that Goku had SSJ2 or thought that his SSJ2 wouldn't be that strong.
Also perhaps Vegeta thought that Goku expected Dabura to be in the range between Cell (Suppressed vs Goku) and SPC. Goku SSJ beating the low end of that possibility. However, when later, Goku comments that Dabura is stronger than he expected, he would put Dabura (Suppressed vs Gohan) at least on the SPC level. At that time Vegeta already knew that Goku had SSJ2.
I have Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre Majin) much more powerful than SPC and Kid Gohan SSJ2 (Not Enraged) and in turn, much inferior to Majin Vegeta / Goku SSJ2.
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Thanks for that. I knew it was stated but wasn't sure how. In that context I'd be forced to agree with you. But for those in denial, believing Dabra>SPC would probably go hand in hand with Vegeta>SPC and vice versa.
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Well a pretty big one is that Gohan is undeniably drawn as a Super Saiyan when he fought Dabra.
The quote is directly about Goku having surpassed Super Saiyan, Vegeta makes no mention of Goku's power until after he was controlled by Babidi.
Why would they speak so factually if they were guessing Dabra's strength on such loose terms? You also just stated that there's no reason for Goku to be referencing a suppressed version of Cell, but now you are saying that perhaps Goku was referencing a suppressed version of Cell... Which is it? If you believe the latter then there's no reason for Dabra to end up above SPC's level. He was above their expectations, but it's completely arbitrary as to how far he exceeded them. Keep in mind that Goku thought Gohan still had a chance in the fight. Does this really make sense against a guy who is above SPC? Gohan was called pathetic by Vegeta.
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I was thinking and realized that the logical thing would be for Vegeta to think that Goku was comparing Dabura to Cell Perfect (FP), since SPC appeared when Goku was dead and Vegeta did not know that Goku had seen SPC.
The thing is, Goku did meet SPC and was comparing Dabura to SPC.
We would have: Dabura (Suppressed vs Gohan)> / = SPC = Dabura (Goku's estimation) >> Dabura (Vegeta's estimation) = Cell Perfect (FP).
Goku SSJ (Boo) should be more or less at the level of Cell Perfect (FP), let's add the fact that Goku has better techniques and is a better fighter than Dabura, it would not be strange if Vegeta suspected that Goku SSJ (Boo) could Defeat someone of the level of Cell Perfect (FP).
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The proper line could be translated as "So as expected, that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall?...The Super Saiyan wall..." so it's possible Vegeta always expected Goku to be a SSJ2. I think the very point of comparing Dabra to Cell is saying "We can't beat Cell as SSJ1s, but he's gotta be a easy game now that we all have SSJ2", instead of having a specific level of Cell's in mind.
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Well, I think the line spoken by him at the Capsule Corporation, in where Gohan urged Vegeta to fight in the Tournament, sets a good and round baseline, implying that Vegeta is indeed below kid Gohan, but at the same time, not by a VAST amount.
He wonders how he'll fare against teen Gohan knowing that Gohan has gotten softer... so he seems weaker than kid Gohan. But he still brandishes his usual confidence not knowing BY HOW MUCH Gohan weakened. So I figure he's in the vicinity if he has confidence going up against a Gohan that he can't personally assess how much power he let scape of his grip... so I think something like SPC's level sounds about just right.
He wonders how he'll fare against teen Gohan knowing that Gohan has gotten softer... so he seems weaker than kid Gohan. But he still brandishes his usual confidence not knowing BY HOW MUCH Gohan weakened. So I figure he's in the vicinity if he has confidence going up against a Gohan that he can't personally assess how much power he let scape of his grip... so I think something like SPC's level sounds about just right.
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It may be, however we must not forget that Gohan grew disproportionately, therefore Vegeta would hope that at least he will increase his strength a little.
Also in TB25 Vegeta believed himself the superior of all, even Goku, knowing that the latter trained in the other world.
I remember that at the end of the fight between Gohan vs Dabura, Vegeta declared very annoyed that Gohan has almost the same power as when he was a child. He commented it as a great disappointment.
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He didn't really say Gohan had almost the same power as his kid self, did he?
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Yes, Vegeta commented that Teen Gohan had almost the same power as when he was little, while the latter was fighting Dabura.
Surely Dabura (Suppressed vs Gohan) was at the level of SPC, slightly surpassing Teen Gohan SSJ2, since he took a senzu after his fight and even so, he depended on his anger to defeat him.
Surely the fight between Teen Gohan SSJ2 vs Dabura has been similar to that of Goku SSJ vs Cell, where the combats seemed even, however the seconds had a small power advantage.
Vegeta was confident of defeating that version of Dabura very easily, to the level of not even worrying about the possibility of losing energy and wearing himself out before his fight against Goku.
The Gohan who was outmatched by Goku SSJ2 (Boo), was Kid Gohan SSJ2 who clearly got a boost of anger.
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Dabra is in no way comparable to Super Perfect Cell. Remember that Cell broke Kid Gohan's arm with a blast. Meanwhile, Dabra's magic blast hit a weaker Gohan directly and failed to do any noticeable damage to him. His feats are straight up worse than Cell's, and that's not even getting into whether Gohan was actually a SSj2 at all.
At most Dabra is stronger than FP Cell, but he'd get thrashed by Super Perfect Cell.
At most Dabra is stronger than FP Cell, but he'd get thrashed by Super Perfect Cell.
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Dabra and Gohan didn't even fill up Boo's meter at all. Goku and Majin Vegeta filled nearly half of it within a couple minutes at most, and Gohan even made the point that they must be fighting beyond Super Saiyan. Wouldn't make much sense if he and Dabra were also beyond Super Saiyan.
