Pre-Majin SSJ2 Vegeta

[SIAD]

When did Vegeta state that?

@SIAD

I don't remember the exact chapter, but it was at the time when Vegeta was very upset with Gohan and wanted to intervene in his fight against Dabura. I think in the Manga it was in Chapter 455.

 

[SIAD]

Dabra and Gohan didn't even fill up Boo's meter at all. Goku and Majin Vegeta filled nearly half of it within a couple minutes at most, and Gohan even made the point that they must be fighting beyond Super Saiyan. Wouldn't make much sense if he and Dabra were also beyond Super Saiyan.

But that's because Goku and Majin Vegeta in SSJ2 are much more powerful than Dabura and Gohan SSJ2.

Also in the fight between Dabura and Gohan, the damage they caused was more superficial. He would even say that Dabura got away unscathed.

 

[SSJ2]

That's not what the quote says.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If-if two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

Gohan directly says the high damage levels are because they were Super Saiyan 2. He doesn't say it was because they were Super Saiyan 2 and highly powerful.

 

[SIAD]

That's not what the quote says.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If-if two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

Gohan directly says the high damage levels are because they were Super Saiyan 2. He doesn't say it was because they were Super Saiyan 2 and highly powerful.

But that's because Gohan knew that Goku and Vegeta were much more powerful than him in every way.

If Gohan had been just an SSJ, why would Goku have compared Dabura to a repressed form of Cell?

Also Goku SSJ's Ki was 3,000 Kiris. We don't know if he was Suppressed, but if he was, it wouldn't be by much, since in the best of cases, Goku SSJ (Suppressed) would have used less than his 10% power and Dabura wouldn't just mention that He is not afraid of someone with 4,000 Kiris, if Dabura were even more powerful.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That's not what the quote says.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If-if two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

Gohan directly says the high damage levels are because they were Super Saiyan 2. He doesn't say it was because they were Super Saiyan 2 and highly powerful.

“Further surpassed Super Saiyan” suggests Gohan himself is also above SSJ, only not as much as Goku. Unless you’re counting MSSJ as a beyond SSJ form, Gohan is definitely beyond SSJ1 here too.

Dabra is in no way comparable to Super Perfect Cell. Remember that Cell broke Kid Gohan's arm with a blast. Meanwhile, Dabra's magic blast hit a weaker Gohan directly and failed to do any noticeable damage to him. His feats are straight up worse than Cell's, and that's not even getting into whether Gohan was actually a SSj2 at all.

At most Dabra is stronger than FP Cell, but he'd get thrashed by Super Perfect Cell.

Given Dabra’s confidence later, it’s possible he was didn’t get to go all out vs Gohan.

 

[SSJ2]

“Further surpassed Super Saiyan” suggests Gohan himself is also above SSJ, only not as much as Goku. Unless you’re counting MSSJ as a beyond SSJ form, Gohan is definitely beyond SSJ1 here too.

I don't see how that's suggested at all.

 

[SSJ2]

But that's because Gohan knew that Goku and Vegeta were much more powerful than him in every way.

If this were the reason then why wouldn't he say it's due to their high power levels and that alone? Kaioshin has already seen SSJ2 Gohan fighting according to you, so there shouldn't be any need for Gohan to point this out.

If Gohan had been just an SSJ, why would Goku have compared Dabura to a repressed form of Cell?

I don't like having to make the connection to suppressed Cell, but it's the only way to make sense of the art that Toriyama drew.

Also Goku SSJ's Ki was 3,000 Kiris. We don't know if he was Suppressed, but if he was, it wouldn't be by much, since in the best of cases, Goku SSJ (Suppressed) would have used less than his 10% power and Dabura wouldn't just mention that He is not afraid of someone with 4,000 Kiris, if Dabura were even more powerful.

The kiri meter appeared to be maxed out at 3,000.



Which is also backed by the Daizenshuu. Babidi clearly wasn't using the new model shown here:

 

[Papasmurf]

Super Perfect Cell was significantly below SSJ2 Majin Vegeta judging by the fact that Gohan never once said Cell was above him even post-Zenkai, only that his power increased by a greater amount than he'd have thought (probably based on his standing Ki). Just being on SSJ2 tier, regardless of precisely how powerful the fighter is, increases damage dealt and taken. Even the weakest SSJ2 like Gohan is still above the strongest non-fused SSJ like Goku, judging by the fact that Piccolo said that "even Gohan was killed by Fat Boo" as if it has relevance to SSJ2 Vegeta. If Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura the damage he took from an off-guard blast should've moved the needle on Boo's meter, and Goku not contradicting Vegeta's confidence on being stronger than SSJ2 Gohan now despite later being surprised by him turning SSJ2 (with a speech bubble showing exclamation marks), none of that makes sense. There's some situational bits with the story narrative that suggest Gohan not turning SSJ2 is stupid, but that's what the art and many statements and feat imply.

 

[SIAD]

Super Perfect Cell was significantly below SSJ2 Majin Vegeta judging by the fact that Gohan never once said Cell was above him even post-Zenkai, only that his power increased by a greater amount than he'd have thought (probably based on his standing Ki). Just being on SSJ2 tier, regardless of precisely how powerful the fighter is, increases damage dealt and taken. Even the weakest SSJ2 like Gohan is still above the strongest non-fused SSJ like Goku, judging by the fact that Piccolo said that "even Gohan was killed by Fat Boo" as if it has relevance to SSJ2 Vegeta. If Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura the damage he took from an off-guard blast should've moved the needle on Boo's meter, and Goku not contradicting Vegeta's confidence on being stronger than SSJ2 Gohan now despite later being surprised by him turning SSJ2 (with a speech bubble showing exclamation marks), none of that makes sense. There's some situational bits with the story narrative that suggest Gohan not turning SSJ2 is stupid, but that's what the art and many statements and feat imply.

So is it possible that Kid Gohan SSJ2 (Enraged)> Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre Majin) >>> Goku SSJ (Boo) >> Vegeta SSJ (Pre Majin)> Dabura (FP)> SPC?

 

[Papasmurf]

So is it possible that Kid Gohan SSJ2 (Enraged)> Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre Majin) >>> Goku SSJ (Boo) >> Vegeta SSJ (Pre Majin)> Dabura (FP)> SPC?

Nah. Vegeta said with uncertainty that Gohan could be above them if he snapped and went on a frenzy, saying "We don't know what could happen." Only one certain that SSJ2 Enraged Gohan would be above everyone was Galu, and retroactively we know he was bullshitting because he had SSJ3 and he doubted even SSJ2 post-Z Sword Gohan could beat Fat Boo.

 

[SIAD]

@Captain Cadaver

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't see how that's suggested at all.

"Further surpassed" > just "surpassed". Gohan's statement suggests there were at least two kinds of power beyond SSJ1: Weak SSJ2 and strong SSJ2, which surpasses average SSJ1 power further than a weak SSJ2 does.

If this were the reason then why wouldn't he say it's due to their high power levels and that alone? Kaioshin has already seen SSJ2 Gohan fighting according to you, so there shouldn't be any need for Gohan to point this out.


I don't like having to make the connection to suppressed Cell, but it's the only way to make sense of the art that Toriyama drew.


The kiri meter appeared to be maxed out at 3,000.

View attachment 687

Which is also backed by the Daizenshuu. Babidi clearly wasn't using the new model shown here:

View attachment 688

Kili Meters are supposed to be read clockwise, not left to right. See Bottom Bitch Yamu's meter in the Daizenshuu entry.

The Daizenshuu topic is about the average Energy Meter so logically the image would represent such. Newer models are just a foot note and I see no reason why Babidi wouldn't have one with him.

@Captain Cadaver

Shame how CC introduced the idea of Dabra > SPC here on Zeta and then vanished

 

[SIAD]

I was watching the Anime and Manga, indeed Goku SSJ had a power of 3,000 Kiri. I don't think 3,000 Kiri is the maximum that the device can read, since Babidi would have let it be known that Goku exceeded 3,000 Kiris. In addition Dabura speaks that he is not afraid to fight against opponents that have 3,000 or 4,000 Kiris, which means that this maximum capacity device must read at least 4,000 Kiris.

What catches my attention a bit is Goku's surprise when he saw Majin Vegeta SSJ2. It will mean that:

Goku / Majin Vegeta SSJ2> Kid Gohan SSJ2 (Enraged)> Goku / Majin Vegeta SSJ> Dabura (Suppressed vs Gohan) = SPC = Dabura> Goku SSJ (Suppressed against Yakon).

Or that Goku expected the power of Majin Vegeta SSJ2 to be equal to the power of Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre Majin).

Goku had commented that he doubted that Gohan (Post Sword Z) was the most powerful, but he does not speak of a hypothetical Gohan SSJ2 (Enraged) (Post Sword Z).

 

[SSJ2]

"Further surpassed" > just "surpassed". Gohan's statement suggests there were at least two kinds of power beyond SSJ1: Weak SSJ2 and strong SSJ2, which surpasses average SSJ1 power further than a weak SSJ2 does.

This is just headcanon that you are asserting into the story. In no way shape or form is it ever implied that there is a surpassed and further surpassed Super Saiyan. They are one in the same. Vegeta actually refers to it as surpassing Super Saiyan earlier:

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…”

Kili Meters are supposed to be read clockwise, not left to right. See Bottom Bitch Yamu's meter in the Daizenshuu entry.

The Daizenshuu topic is about the average Energy Meter so logically the image would represent such. Newer models are just a foot note and I see no reason why Babidi wouldn't have one with him.

The model that Spopovitch/Yamu had matches that of the one shown in the Daizenshuu. It's clear that is the model that exceeds 3,000 kiri as it was able to get a clear read on SSJ2 Gohan's power. If it was the old model then we would have seen Gohan take the meter to its limit. The new model is read in the clockwise direction but there's nothing that says the old model works the same way.

It would also make little sense for Babidi to react in such a way if the energy meter was barely past the first notch. He and Dabra were shocked that there was a power of 3,000 kiri on earth, so why on earth is he using a meter that measures up to some 20,000 kiri or so? That model maxes out at 3,000 kiri son.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This is just headcanon that you are asserting into the story. In no way shape or form is it ever implied that there is a surpassed and further surpassed Super Saiyan. They are one in the same. Vegeta actually refers to it as surpassing Super Saiyan earlier:

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…”

Basic semantics is not headcanon. “Further” implies it’s even above the standard than someone already has. It’s not the only time SSJ2 Goku says he’s further surpassed SSJ1 either.

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P13.6
Context: Goku decides to use Super Saiyan 3 against Boo
Goku: “Alright then. How about I show you a Super Saiyan [SSJ3] that has even further [than SSJ2] surpassed a Super Saiyan [Low SSJ2 tier or strong, post Rosat SSJs] who has surpassed a Super Saiyan [NormalSSJ]…”

It’s definitely a bit confusing, maybe Toriyama lost count of the forms. But what the story suggests is that Goku is more above the average SSJ1 power than Gohan already is. It’s about the power, not transformations. Otherwise Gohan would’ve just said “Father is fighting in a form above SSJ” without the “further beyond”. The statement you posted supports that.

The model that Spopovitch/Yamu had matches that of the one shown in the Daizenshuu. It's clear that is the model that exceeds 3,000 kiri as it was able to get a clear read on SSJ2 Gohan's power. If it was the old model then we would have seen Gohan take the meter to its limit. The new model is read in the clockwise direction but there's nothing that says the old model works the same way.

It would also make little sense for Babidi to react in such a way if the energy meter was barely past the first notch. He and Dabra were shocked that there was a power of 3,000 kiri on earth, so why on earth is he using a meter that measures up to some 20,000 kiri or so? That model maxes out at 3,000 kiri son.

SSJ2 Gohan’s power send the Meter n actually, so it was definitely an older model.

Spoiler: SSJ2 Gohan fucks up the Kili Meter

I really don’t know why Babidi picked up his best meter to estimate someone he believed to be weak, but I’m pretty sure the Kili Meter is supposed to be read left to right. It’s only the reading order that’s supposed to be backwards. Maybe he gave all the old ones to Yamu and Spopovich?

 

[SIAD]

Dabura and Babidi were surprised that a power of 3,000 Kiris existed.

Does that mean: Gohan SSJ2 (Vs Dabura)> 3,000 Kiris> Gohan SSJ2 (TB25)?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Dabura and Babidi were surprised that a power of 3,000 Kiris existed.

Does that mean: Gohan SSJ2 (Vs Dabura)> 3,000 Kiris> Gohan SSJ2 (TB25)?

I don’t think so. Babidi underestimated the energy needed and thought what Yamu and Spopovich collected was from hundreds of normal humans. Plus they expected Yakon and Pui Pui to collect the energy, even though Babidi knew Yakon’s BP was 800 Kili.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

@GreatSaiyaman123 I think you're reading too much into that quote about Super Saiyan 3. A Super Saiyan who has surpassed a Super Saiyan would just be a SSj2, and a SSj3 further surpasses that. The dialogue in the scene where Goku demonstrates his transformations to Boo supports this, as he refers to Super Saiyan 2 as a "Super Saiyan which has gone beyond Super Saiyan" whilst doing so, as shown in the video below

 

[SSJ2]

Basic semantics is not headcanon. “Further” implies it’s even above the standard than someone already has. It’s not the only time SSJ2 Goku says he’s further surpassed SSJ1 either.

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P13.6
Context: Goku decides to use Super Saiyan 3 against Boo
Goku: “Alright then. How about I show you a Super Saiyan [SSJ3] that has even further [than SSJ2] surpassed a Super Saiyan [Low SSJ2 tier or strong, post Rosat SSJs] who has surpassed a Super Saiyan [NormalSSJ]…”

It’s definitely a bit confusing, maybe Toriyama lost count of the forms. But what the story suggests is that Goku is more above the average SSJ1 power than Gohan already is. It’s about the power, not transformations. Otherwise Gohan would’ve just said “Father is fighting in a form above SSJ” without the “further beyond”. The statement you posted supports that.

It's not basic semantics though. There are quotes that go directly against this notion that Goku's SSJ2 has further surpassed other forms of SSJ2.

Even if further surpassed was meant to imply some next level of SSJ/power, you're forgetting about the Grade forms which were already known as surpassing Super Saiyan.

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P9.1-2
Trunks: “Father really did surpass the limits of Super Saiyan…He obtained absolutely incredible power, like he has in that form now…But one day, I even further surpassed that realm…! I realized that this was what Son Goku had been talking about…”

Trunks claims that he further surpassed a surpassed Super Saiyan which is referring to Grade 3. SSJ2 is no different in that it is further surpassing a surpassed version of SSJ.

You're also making the statement from the Boo arc more convoluted than it needs to be. Goku gave us a direct definition of SSJ2 shortly after and the word further surpassed never came up:

Chapter: 474 (DBZ 280), P3.3-8, P4.1, P7.5
Context: Goku demonstrates the different forms of Super Saiyan to Boo
Goku: “First, this is my regular state. This is Super Saiyan. Then this is what I showed your before, a Super Saiyan that has surpassed Super Saiyan…’Super Saiyan 2’, you could call it. [ ] And so…[ ] This…Ev-even further surpasses that…[ ] …This is Super Saiyan 3. Sorry that took so long. I’m still not used to this transformation.”

So according to you Goku is referencing two different forms of SSJ2? It doesn't make any sense man. Whether he calls it surpassed or further surpassed, both are in reference to the same form.

SSJ2 Gohan’s power send the Meter n actually, so it was definitely an older model.


I really don’t know why Babidi picked up his best meter to estimate someone he believed to be weak, but I’m pretty sure the Kili Meter is supposed to be read left to right. It’s only the reading order that’s supposed to be backwards. Maybe he gave all the old ones to Yamu and Spopovich?

I'm not sure what you're seeing here. Gohan's power clearly didn't bring the meter to its limit.

The model that Spopovitch is holding is read left to right as we know that Gohan filled less than half of Boo's energy. We have absolutely no reason to believe that a completely different model of the energy meter functions in the same way. It simply wouldn't make sense. Babidi is expecting Pokus and Yakon (800 kili) to take care of these guys without a problem. How would he even get a reading on their power when the first notch is equal to 3000 kili? The notch shouldn't even move if they're as weak as Babidi is expecting.

 

[SIAD]

The main issue here is that it would be completely inconsistent for Goku to compare Dabura to a Suppressed version of his Perfect form.

I think @GreatSaiyaman123 point is that Gohan was a weak SSJ2 compared to the other 2 SSJ2 who were much more powerful in all their forms.

If Gohan were an SSJ, the main reason for Vegeta's anger would be that Gohan fails to use the SSJ2 form, instead of being enraged because he decreased power in general.