Prime Garp vs current Kaido

[SSJ2]

I’d say he does without a doubt.

 

[ahill1]

Wel

Nah not all. Only Big Mom and Kaido were said to have gotten much stronger since then. Rocks Xebec was also said to be the strongest enemy Roger had ever faced, and somehow he and Garp beat him, Shiki, WB, BM, Kaido, and several more.

They can't have been too far from their primes.

Well, if Whitebeard wasn't far from his prime, wouldn't Roger and Garp have lost to them? After all WB and Roger are pretty much stalemate... adding a supposedly > WB to the count would void Roger and Garp's chances... unless Whitebeard was also far from his prime, which I think is more likely.

 

[SSJ2]

Wel

Well, if Whitebeard wasn't far from his prime, wouldn't Roger and Garp have lost to them? After all WB and Roger are pretty much stalemate... adding a supposedly > WB to the count would void Roger and Garp's chances... unless Whitebeard was also far from his prime, which I think is more likely.

I'd be willing to say that Roger and Whitebeard did get stronger, but the God Valley incident occurred after Roger had been around the entire Grand Line + New World. Kaido says in Wano that pirates will always betray you, so maybe Rocks bailed on the war or WB could have switched sides. We don't really know at this point. But the implication from that incident up until Roger's death was that he and Garp were always pretty close.

Also about the Smoker example, I really don't see it. Smoker really almost killed Luffy, what, once? And that was before the SHC reached the Grand Line. Roger speaks to Garp as though they have been at odds constantly during the span of his piracy. Smoker and Luffy don't have that kind of connection.

 

[Future Warrior]

Guys I think y’all are overrating Sengoku a bit too much. Garp is considered a legend in comparison to him. I don’t think Prime Sengoku has to be stronger than Current Akainu.

 

[SSJ2]

Sengoku was the only other Marine that was worth anything to Roger. Given what we know now, would Roger really be excited to fight someone on Akainu's level? Half dead Whitebeard could fight him with no advanced Haki as you pointed out.

 

[Future Warrior]

Yes he would. Any of the Admirals and Yonko would give a good fight to Roger.

 

[SSJ2]

But weren't you saying that WB was the weakest Yonko at Marineford? Roger is stronger than the strongest Yonko currently alive, whoever that is. It could be by a little or a lot, but if Whitebeard was equal to an Admiral in his state, I really don't see Roger getting a good fight out of that. Look at how easily he swatted away Oden who was on the level of a Yonko.

 

[Future Warrior]

You'll probably disagree with me on this and that's fair but during Marineford I actually believe any of the Admirals would beat Whitebeard during MF even in a one on one fight. That's how much fucked up he was. WB might have had the edge in terms of brute strength but he would not outlast the Admirals at all.

I actually believe that even though the Admirals might not have Conquerors Haki, they make up for it with their vastly superior Observation and Armament Haki (protecting the whole execution stand, Aokiji possibly using Future Sight against WB). Not to mention probably having DF awakening. I don't think Oden was Yonko level at that point either.

 

[SSJ2]

I'm getting close to Marineford in my reread so I'll be able to give a better answer then. Iirc none of the Admirals managed anything of significance against WB while he was still fresh early on. I recall Aokiji freezing WB but wasn't able to hurt him at all. I can't see any of them winning up until he had the heart attack. It would be a task for any of the Admirals to survive long enough for WB's health to get the best of him.

Regarding Oden, I can't see him being any weaker than that.



For one, Kaido puts Oden on the same pedestal as Prime Roger/Whitebeard, Xebec, and then also Shanks. Including Oden here would be strange given the context was around the select few people capable of fighting Kaido. We're not given reason to believe that Kaido has improved significantly since then.

Second, there's the battle of the WB pirates and the Roger pirates. We know WB and Roger were fighting against one another for the entire 3 days, meaning Rayleigh and or Gaban were fighting Oden. Nobody else within the Roger pirates was implied to be on that level, and Rayleigh and Gaban were even considering teaming up at the start, implying Oden was at least around Rayleigh's level.

 

[Future Warrior]

For one, Kaido puts Oden on the same pedestal as Prime Roger/Whitebeard, Xebec, and then also Shanks. Including Oden here would be strange given the context was around the select few people capable of fighting Kaido. We're not given reason to believe that Kaido has improved significantly since then.

Second, there's the battle of the WB pirates and the Roger pirates. We know WB and Roger were fighting against one another for the entire 3 days, meaning Rayleigh and or Gaban were fighting Oden. Nobody else within the Roger pirates was implied to be on that level, and Rayleigh and Gaban were even considering teaming up at the start, implying Oden was at least around Rayleigh's level.

''Returning many times stronger than when he left''. The Oden that fought Kaido was not the same one that fought Roger.

 

[SSJ2]

It's true, but I'd argue that Oden made most of his gains in the 2 years with WB as opposed to the 1 year with Roger. He was already established by the time he met Roger and was given a bounty and such. Roger was looking forward to meeting him based on the rumours and he and the top members of his crew weren't disappointed. The time with Roger seemed to be spent tracking down poneglyphs more-so than battling.

 

[Future Warrior]

Fair. I'm not opposed to the idea that Oden was Yonko level or close but I'd be hard pressed to think that he would beat a Hybrid Kaido from this day and age. I agree he's insanely strong but stronger than Prime Rayleigh? Eh, a bit weird that he's more powerful than Roger's right hand man.

 

[ahill1]

Regarding Marineford, I think Whitebeard got a resolve boost from Ace's death when smashing Akainu. He didn't seem as dominant when he clashed with Akainu beforehand, and he was healthier.

 

[Future Warrior]

Regarding Marineford, I think Whitebeard got a resolve boost from Ace's death when smashing Akainu. He didn't seem as dominant when he clashed with Akainu beforehand, and he was healthier.

How do you think WB compares to Admirals during MF?

 

[ahill1]

How do you think WB compares to Admirals during MF?

I think he's stronger than them when healthy. The way everyone (even the narrator) seemed to refer to WB as the strongest man alive makes it hard to me to have him below the admirals. WB was the main force of the pirates and the one to be stopped, drawing everyone's attention... It'd be a little weird if there were 3+ opponents there holding strength greater than his. I think he got a resolve boost when smashing Akainu and his resolve boost made him employ temporarily what his full power would be capable of. I think there's a line from Sengoku showing surprise at WB's destructions feats "in his condition", which may put a hench on my "WB put out full power when enraged", but I could argue Sengoku was surprised WB could summon FP even for an instant in that state or some shit like this. Btw yeah, Sengoku also seems in awe at WB's feats... I'd be hard pressed to keep WB noticeably above the admirals.

I personally have Akainu about as strong as Kaido, give it or take. Don't judge me!

 

[Future Warrior]

I agree that WB in his best state would ultimately beat the admirals, I just don't think he could do it during MF.

 

[ahill1]

Well, I think the war would be pretty much decided from the get go if even the strongest guy of the pirates were outmatched by 4 marines.

 

[Future Warrior]

Us the viewers wouldn't have known that from the start.