Raditz Varying Levels

[Power Level Guy]

Ok so here's a checklist of Raditz varying levels.

1- His initial power that tanks Piccolo's unamplified blast. He omega level tanks it, which puts Raditz at least at 2x the blast. Even though Goku and Piccolo have access to more power by removing their weights, there isn't any real confidence in defeating this level of Raditz, even with their full power. They still need a miracle, this is important to be aware of.

2. The power he uses against Goku and Piccolo once they remove their weights. Goku and Piccolo are both shocked at the new power Raditz has showcased.

3. Raditz blocks the Kamehameha, Goku is shocked by it, but perhaps this is just one of those situations where they don't know the full extent of the power of the individual.

4. Raditz dodges the Special Beam Cannon. Piccolo is clearly shocked by Raditz speed, which doesn't make sense since he's been exposed to it already. So this can only mean Raditz has increased his speed.


Special Beam Cannon >= Raditz (Full Power) > Raditz (Powered Up) > Kamehameha ~ Raditz (Initial) > Goku/Piccolo W/o Weights > Goku/Piccolo W/ Weights

 

[SIAD]

Raditz (Initial) = 654
(Power) = 981
(FP) = 1,308.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Raditz (Initial) = 654
(Power) = 981
(FP) = 1,308.

Looks pretty damn good.

But I do think Kamehameha and Initial Raditz must be quite close. Goku doesn't seem to have much confidence in defeating Raditz from the get-go. If Kamehameha is that much stronger, he should at least have some confidence.

 

[SIAD]

Looks pretty damn good.

But I do think Kamehameha and Initial Raditz must be quite close. Goku doesn't seem to have much confidence in defeating Raditz from the get-go. If Kamehameha is that much stronger, he should at least have some confidence.

@Power Level Guy

So Raditz (Initial) would be like 720, since Goku thought that the combined power between Goku (No Heavy Clothes) + Piccolo (Heavy Clothes) >= Raditz. Goku didn't know that Piccolo was in Heavy Clothes.

The same thing happens with Piccolo, he thought that Piccolo (No Heavy Clothes) + Goku (Heavy Clothes) >= Raditz. Piccolo didn't know that Goku was in Heavy Clothes.

 

[Power Level Guy]

So Raditz (Initial) would be like 720, since Goku thought that the combined power between Goku (No Heavy Clothes) + Piccolo (Heavy Clothes) >= Raditz. Goku didn't know that Piccolo was in Heavy Clothes.

I think he has to be ~ Kamehameha. Goku doesn't seem to think he can decisively win versus Raditz initially. If Kamehameha is >> Initial Raditz, he should have some significant confidence heading in.

 

[SSJ2]

Don’t forget that Raditz said he would increase his attack power with every attack. It might be more nuanced than 3 or 4 specific levels.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Don’t forget that Raditz said he would increase his attack power with every attack. It might be more nuanced than 3 or 4 specific levels.

You might be right. Well there are 4 instances I feel a rating is necessary. We don't need one for every single instance.

1. Initial
2. First attacking Goku/Piccolo W/o Weights
3. Stopping Kamehameha
4. Dodging Special Beam Cannon

If we can figure out these 4, that will already be 10x more in depth than anyone else. No one puts any time into this thing.

 

[SSJ2]

The tricky part with the KHH is that Goku never had any confidence in beating Raditz. If Raditz was only 6-700 initially, wouldn’t Goku have some reason for optimism there?

 

[Power Level Guy]

The tricky part with the KHH is that Goku never had any confidence in beating Raditz. If Raditz was only 6-700 initially, wouldn’t Goku have some reason for optimism there?

Exactly. This is why I go with this set instead.

Goku 600
~ Kamehameha 800

Raditz 800
~ Power-Up 1,000
~ Full Power 1,250

I think it's possible Goku hasn't realized the extent of Raditz' power-up. He has seen the speed, but hasn't felt the power yet. Raditz clearly is trying to avoid the blast as well. But it's weird, it feels like there could indeed be a power-up there as well.

I don't think Raditz is using full power to stop the Kamehameha, but I do think he has to use full effort at his less than full power level. He clearly goes all out to block the Kamehameha.

But then somehow Raditz speed shocks Piccolo later. It could be this...


Raditz (Vs SBC) > Raditz (Vs Kamehameha) > Raditz (Power-Up) > Raditz (Initial)

 

[SSJ2]

What about initially though? How does that fit with Piccolo’s blast?

 

[Power Level Guy]

What about initially though? How does that fit with Piccolo’s blast?

Well remember. Piccolo's blast isn't amped. Oh, I see, I'm giving you the unweighted numbers. Let me show you.


Goku/Piccolo W/ Weights 400
~ Piccolo's Blast 400

Goku/Piccolo W/o Weights 600
~ Kamehameha 800
~ Special Beam Cannon 1,350

Raditz 800
~ Power-Up 1,000
~ Full Power 1,250

So what's essential here is making Kamehameha a 1.33x amp. Why? So it can match Vegeta's Galick Gun later. So Goku has the same amp from 23rd World Tournament to Namek. His Kamehameha against Freeza is still 1.33x.

Everything suggests a 1.33x amp for Goku's Kamehameha is the best bet here.

This saga is far more difficult than anyone thinks. Plus, it's so hard to get the community to give me any input on this stuff because the official levels stay in their mind so much.

It's really difficult because I can't make too much progress on my own without lots of varying, challenging thought. Really goes to show you how community driven all of these topics are. One person can't figure this stuff out on their own, all ideas must be battle tested to death to get the highest level of accuracy.

 

[SSJ2]

I’m definitely not opposed to Goku and Piccolo surpassing 416/408. I mean it’s pretty absurd for Goku to be stalling Raditz on his own at that level, even if Raditz was only 800 or so there.

I was more confused because you said there was a 4th level in your first post. I thought you were implying Raditz blocking Piccolo’s blast was weaker than 800.

I don’t know if matching the Galick Gun is needed though. Kaioken might interfere with amped attacks.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I don’t know if matching the Galick Gun is needed though. Kaioken might interfere with amped attacks.

Kamehameha should match Galick Gun in regards to amp. Kaioken is another issue.

While the KKx3 matches the Galick Gun, this is strictly because of the Kaioken amp. There should be no additional amp on Kaioken Kamehamehas.

Narratively speaking, I like the idea of Kamehameha and Galick Gun matching each other. It fits perfectly with this deep rivalry between Goku and Vegeta. This isn't Goku vs Piccolo, a match-up Goku has proven to have the ki amp advantage in. No, Vegeta is far more his rival than Piccolo is.

On Namek, there's a precedent set as well. Vegeta's Final Crash being 1.33x seems to be in line with what he was able to accomplish on Earth as well. These amps seem to line up with Freeza and Cooler's as well.

Add to the fact the dismissal of Goku's Saiyan Saga amp by Piccolo in the Androids Saga, it's best to assume that Androids > Saiyan Saga/Namek Saga.

We want to keep the Light Grenade as small as possible, this isn't possible unless you start setting things up from the very beginning.

Considering that we want Light Grenade = Big Bang Attack > Namek Kamehameha, this is the best way to go about it.

Also remember, BBA should also be as low as possible. Although it may not be full power, even the second one on 18, if it's too high amped, Vegeta can possibly take her out.

If you do a deep dive on creating a progressive ki amplification narrative throughout the series, you will be the better for it.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Piccolo gets 1.5x stronger taking off his weights, should that also apply to his fight with Freeza?

I think each saga has a slightly better amp than the last. After all the training Goku did on the way to Namek you think his amp is the same? No way. He was flexing his Ki control on everyone’s faces on Namek.

Not sure when or how the amp increases later.

 

[SSJ2]

If Piccolo gets 1.5x stronger taking off his weights, should that also apply to his fight with Freeza?

His boost from the weights becomes smaller the stronger he became. After fusing with Kami his weighted version was still rivaling 17/18. On Namek it can be somewhere between BoZ and the Android arc.

 

[SSJ2]

Narratively speaking, I like the idea of Kamehameha and Galick Gun matching each other. It fits perfectly with this deep rivalry between Goku and Vegeta. This isn't Goku vs Piccolo, a match-up Goku has proven to have the ki amp advantage in. No, Vegeta is far more his rival than Piccolo is.

I can see logic in believing otherwise though. Vegeta was not skilled in Ki when he was on earth. He might have been skilled compared to the average fighter, but he couldn't actively suppress his ki which is a pretty elementary display of skill. I wouldn't be surprised if his ki amp was lagging behind as well.

 

[SSJ2]

Considering that we want Light Grenade = Big Bang Attack

Where is this implied?

 

[Power Level Guy]

If Piccolo gets 1.5x stronger taking off his weights, should that also apply to his fight with Freeza?

How strong did Goku get when taking off his weights at the 23rd Budokai?

I think each saga has a slightly better amp than the last. After all the training Goku did on the way to Namek you think his amp is the same? No way. He was flexing his Ki control on everyone’s faces on Namek.

I don't think ki amp scales with power increases. Goku's Kamehameha didn't improve in 5 years from 23rd Budokai to BoZ. The best method is to treat ki amp progression like we treat power-ups in general. Never assume a power-up and wait for clear evidence. Saiyan Saga/Namek Saga Goku's ki amp is pitiful, nothing to write home about.

Not sure when or how the amp increases later.

It's simple really. Just go with that is stated.

Buu/CG/Rosat Amp > Androids Saga Kamehameha > Namek/Saiyan Saga/23rd Budokai Kamehameha > Original Kamehameha > Krillen's Kamehameha 22nd Budokai > Goku's Initial Kamehameha

Those are all grounded in fact.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I can see logic in believing otherwise though. Vegeta was not skilled in Ki when he was on earth. He might have been skilled compared to the average fighter, but he couldn't actively suppress his ki which is a pretty elementary display of skill. I wouldn't be surprised if his ki amp was lagging behind as well.

You'll run into some major issues.

Big Bang Attack / Light Grenade make the Saiyan Saga amp look pitiful, so however high you make it, you need to make sure everything else scales with it.

Vegeta is by far the most skilled person in ki Goku has ever met. He matched a KKx3 Kamehameha. No one has ever displayed that level of ki ability as far as I know. Tien's Kikoho is probably the only thing.

Are you saying that Vegeta's Galick Gun can only match up with the Original Kamehameha that every cast member can do easily?

Where is this implied?

Where is it implied that Piccolo has superior ki amp? It's good to assume the cast progress together in ki amp.

 

[SSJ2]

You'll run into some major issues.

Big Bang Attack / Light Grenade make the Saiyan Saga amp look pitiful, so however high you make it, you need to make sure everything else scales with it.

Vegeta is by far the most skilled person in ki Goku has ever met. He matched a KKx3 Kamehameha. No one has ever displayed that level of ki ability as far as I know. Tien's Kikoho is probably the only thing.

Are you saying that Vegeta's Galick Gun can only match up with the Original Kamehameha that every cast member can do easily?

I feel like all of this is a problem because I'm in disagreement with your minimalist approach here. You were saying you thought Light Grenade was a 2x boost right? I think it's 3-5x. If Piccolo is trash talking Cell, I don't think he'd be doing it over a 2x vs 1.33x difference. He's talking down to Cell as if they had made monumental gains on their amplification.

All of this leaves more room for the progression you are talking about.