Raditz Varying Levels

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

It might. I’d have to see the evidence for it though.

BBA > Galick Gun for sure.

I don’t know about Kamehameha being that high honestly. Did Raditz use full power to block it?

 

[GSM123]

@GreatSaiyaman123

It might. I’d have to see the evidence for it though.

BBA > Galick Gun for sure.

I don’t know about Kamehameha being that high honestly. Did Raditz use full power to block it?

As far as straight forward “Our amp is better now”, Piccolo’s line is the only statement ever in Z. BBA isn’t compared to GG in story for example (though Daizenshuu calls it a SSJ variant).

Talking about the Daizenshuu, the bio for the Final Flash says Vegeta narrowing the beam made it more dense, which made it powerful enough to maul Cell. I like that explanation, the amp is absurdly high otherwise.

Raditz tried to run away, had to brace himself to block the Kamehameha and was shaking afterwards. I think 1000 is good for the KHH, 1100ish feels too high. Goku thinks Raditz is an absolute monster for that block.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Why would Final Flash have an absurdly high amp? @GreatSaiyaman123

It pierced through someone who’s double his strength. It should be powerful.

How much have you nerfed this one now? Lol Bro you really do be nerfing everything.

 

[GSM123]

Why would Final Flash have an absurdly high amp? @GreatSaiyaman123

It pierced through someone who’s double his strength. It should be powerful.

How much have you nerfed this one now? Lol Bro you really do be nerfing everything.

Compared to other blasts I mean. BBA is like 1.33x and then FF is 3x while KHH is still like 2x. See the issue?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Compared to other blasts I mean. BBA is like 1.33x and then FF is 3x while KHH is still like 2x. See the issue?

I have BBA at 1.5x and FF at 2.5x.

Androids Kamehameha is 1.5x and CG Kamehameha is 2.5x as well.

 

[SSJ2]

@Power Level Guy let's take a step back here for a min. What exactly is the problem with the amps suggested in the story? Let's assume Goku was only 416 for the sake of argument. Where is the problem with his amp being that high? So long as everything progresses beyond that it should work out the same as a minimalist view.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@Power Level Guy let's take a step back here for a min. What exactly is the problem with the amps suggested in the story? Let's assume Goku was only 416 for the sake of argument. Where is the problem with his amp being that high? So long as everything progresses beyond that it should work out the same as a minimalist view.

This is a multi-layered issue. With ramifications all over the place.

Ok, let me ask you a series of questions and show you the issues.

1. How strong is the Saiyan Saga Kamehameha amp?
2. Is it a consistent amp?
3. What is the 23rd Budokai Amp for Super Kamehameha?
4. What was Piccolo's counter blast amp?
5. What is Light Grenade's amp?
6. What is Galick Gun's amp?
7. What is Freeza's Nova strike amp?


Let me see where you are at on these issues and it'll help me uncover some of the problems.

 

[SSJ2]

Sure. I wouldn't say I have a strong opinion on much of this stuff. I definitely haven't thought about it deeply like you have.

1. How strong is the Saiyan Saga Kamehameha amp?

For the sake of argument let's say 2.2x as the manga suggests.

2. Is it a consistent amp?

Well I think it depends on charge time of course. If Goku charges up the same amount as he did there it would be consistently 2.2x.

3. What is the 23rd Budokai Amp for Super Kamehameha?

That I don't know. Noticeably below 2.2x at minimum. Maybe 1.75x?

4. What was Piccolo's counter blast amp?

Probably 1.5x. It was overtaken quickly by Goku's blast.

5. What is Light Grenade's amp?

3-4x

6. What is Galick Gun's amp?

1.33x

7. What is Freeza's Nova strike amp?

Hm, I dunno. 2.5x?

 

[Power Level Guy]

That I don't know. Noticeably below 2.2x at minimum. Maybe 1.75x?

Goku specifically tells Piccolo right before they fight Raditz that he has no new techniques. Having a tremendously stronger Kamehameha is noteworthy, yet not a peep? I can't get behind it.

Goku's Kamehameha is as strong as the Super Kamehameha was at the 23rd Budokai imo.

Hm, I dunno. 2.5x?

What is Cooler's amp on his Supernova?

 

[SSJ2]

Goku specifically tells Piccolo right before they fight Raditz that he has no new techniques. Having a tremendously stronger Kamehameha is noteworthy, yet not a peep? I can't get behind it.

Goku's Kamehameha is as strong as the Super Kamehameha was at the 23rd Budokai imo.

Well, not to be overly literal but it's technically true even if Goku improved his KHH. The emphasis was on a new technique that hadn't been seen.

It could just be that it wasn't worth mentioning because Goku knew it was still weaker than Raditz.

 

[GSM123]

I think you’re picking and choosing @Power Level Guy. If we’re using Toei movies to dictate the gaps shouldn’t we also use Movie 5 to say 1.5x = tank?

 

[Power Level Guy]

I think you’re picking and choosing @Power Level Guy. If we’re using Toei movies to dictate the gaps shouldn’t we also use Movie 5 to say 1.5x = tank?

It’s easier to tank with TOEI and it’s a body tank.

@SSJ2

Historically I don’t think that holds up. Always assume any ki amp progress has some sort of statement. Goku says he doesn’t have a new one, so I assume it’s all the same.

If Yamcha’s improved WFF is noteworthy, I’d require a similar note for an improved Kamehameha.

 

[GSM123]

Roga Fufuken = 1.1x
Dodonpa = 1.1x
Shin Roga Fufuken = 1.2x
Kamehameha = 1.33x
Kikoho = 1.5x
Makosen/Bakurikimaha = 1.33x
Super Dodonpa = 1.5x
Super Kamehameha = 1.5x

Makankosappo = 2.25x*
Kakusandan = 1.25x each blast
Self destruction = 2.5x
Masenko = 1.12x
Garlic Gun/Final Crash/Garlic Cannon = 1.33x
Death Beam = 2.5x
Nova Strike/Super Nova = 1.5x*

Big Bang Attack = 1.5x
Light Grenade = 1.5x
Final Flash = 2.5x

No post-23TB Kamehameha’s included. Idk their amps.

*If Super KHH is 1.5x, then BoZ Goku and Piccolo are ~600 and SBC ironically gets the KHH’s old amp.
*If KKx20 is a 20 and SSJ Goku is a 50, Cooler is either 30 or 33,3.This can give Supernova and Death Strike a bit of room.

Just made this one from the top of my head. Full of flaws, I didn’t give this much thought. Let’s weed out the inaccuracies.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Great work.

Looks very clean.

But problematic. So Piccolo is downplaying a Kamehameha that exceeds his own power?

Is the claim that Kamiccolo of all people can't match amp for amp with 416 Goku?

Death Beam gotta be an error, right?



Light Grenade = BBA = Androids Saga KHH > Namek/Saiyan/23rd Budokai Kamehameha

Start a thread with this post and let's dive into it.

 

[SSJ2]

Historically I don’t think that holds up. Always assume any ki amp progress has some sort of statement. Goku says he doesn’t have a new one, so I assume it’s all the same.

If Yamcha’s improved WFF is noteworthy, I’d require a similar note for an improved Kamehameha.

But how often did we actually get statements about ki amp progress? We wouldn't have known the KHH was improving if Piccolo didn't mention it to Cell way later on.

 

[Power Level Guy]

But how often did we actually get statements about ki amp progress? We wouldn't have known the KHH was improving if Piccolo didn't mention it to Cell way later on.

That's when you know. When you get an actual comment on it. The author notifies us every time there is a change like he always has. It's not on us to assume ki amp progress is occurring. Same as it's not on us to assume people are powering up.

People are powering up when we are told. People gain power when we are told. Ki amp occurs when we are told. It's the same format.

 

[GSM123]

So Piccolo is downplaying a Kamehameha that exceeds his own power?

You think Weighted Piccolo > Cell’s KHH? That won’t work unless Cell’s amp was even lower that it should be.

That's when you know. When you get an actual comment on it. The author notifies us every time there is a change like he always has. It's not on us to assume ki amp progress is occurring. Same as it's not on us to assume people are powering up.

People are powering up when we are told. People gain power when we are told. Ki amp occurs when we are told. It's the same format.

But your logic is self defeating. You’d get FF >> CG KHH because the KHH is not stated to improve. If you think theFF alone means the KHH improved, then you admit it doesn’t have to be stated.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Cell’s KhH is shown to be improved and the law of everyone being equal should be applied here

 

[Kyo]

Cell’s KHH improving is such bs btw but I guess Toriyama had a story to progress. It would’ve been cool if Cell could suck extra DNA out of people with his tail and learned how to power his moves up that way.

 

[Papasmurf]

Cell’s KHH improving is such bs btw but I guess Toriyama had a story to progress. It would’ve been cool if Cell could suck extra DNA out of people with his tail and learned how to power his moves up that way.

Well he did say he would become the perfect being upon absorbing #18. It's not as stupid as other things from the show that we could name.