Raditz Varying Levels

[GSM123]

It's simple really. Just go with that is stated.

Buu/CG/Rosat Amp > Androids Saga Kamehameha > Namek/Saiyan Saga/23rd Budokai Kamehameha > Original Kamehameha > Krillen's Kamehameha 22nd Budokai > Goku's Initial Kamehameha

Those are all grounded in fact.

Why is Android > Namek? Namek should already be > Saiyan. Even Late Saiyan amp might be better than early Saiyan already. Goku trained his ki a lot with Kaio.

So 1st Rosat Vegeta has the same amp as CG Goku? And CG Vegeta hasn’t improved his amp?

I can see Boo Saga being the same. The Ki amp is high enough already. They can’t keep amping forever (unless it’s Super. Piccolo went from base to SSJB with a SBC lol).

I feel like all of this is a problem because I'm in disagreement with your minimalist approach here. You were saying you thought Light Grenade was a 2x boost right? I think it's 3-5x. If Piccolo is trash talking Cell, I don't think he'd be doing it over a 2x vs 1.33x difference. He's talking down to Cell as if they had made monumental gains on their amplification.

All of this leaves more room for the progression you are talking about.

2x over 1.33x is monumental. And Piccolo isn’t even that condenscending in the japanese text. Only in Viz he insults Cell.

Where is it implied that Piccolo has superior ki amp? It's good to assume the cast progress together in ki amp.

Makankosappo >>>>> Kamehameha

 

[Power Level Guy]

Namek should already be > Saiyan.

Show me the evidence where it's stated or suggested.

Even Late Saiyan amp might be better than early Saiyan already. Goku trained his ki a lot with Kaio.

Show me the statement.

So 1st Rosat Vegeta has the same amp as CG Goku? And CG Vegeta hasn’t improved his amp?

I'd say so. Goku and co. have caught up to Vegeta's Final Flash, but this is where ki amp progress stops until the Kamehameha x10 is revealed in GT.

I can see Boo Saga being the same. The Ki amp is high enough already. They can’t keep amping forever (unless it’s Super. Piccolo went from base to SSJB with a SBC lol).

Yeah, I mean we need evidence to elevate the ki amp. The Buu Saga has zero.

Makankosappo >>>>> Kamehameha

This is a bit different because it's a super charged attack that isn't realistically made for battle. The only reason it even works is because his opponent is literally being held down. In most battles, this opportunity never exists. So this technique is excluded as well as the Kikoho. Having to use your life force for a ki attack is outside the ki amp progress for the norm.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I feel like all of this is a problem because I'm in disagreement with your minimalist approach here. You were saying you thought Light Grenade was a 2x boost right?

No, I have the Light Grenade as a 1.5x amp.

I think it's 3-5x. If Piccolo is trash talking Cell, I don't think he'd be doing it over a 2x vs 1.33x difference. He's talking down to Cell as if they had made monumental gains on their amplification.

When you look at the original language, it's just stating that their amps have improved. The downplaying of the previous ki amp is a Viz overstatement as GSM mentioned.

All of this leaves more room for the progression you are talking about.

I think ki amp is extremely minimal, but I started a completely new comprehensive ki amp progressive chain of thought which includes all of the manga's feats.

So I rebuilt the system from scratch.

 

[GSM123]

You’re oversimplifying kt. Piccolo says Saiyan Saga amp is outdated. He doesn’t say they only now got better than that.

Ki amp is Ki control. As you said, Ki amp doesn’t improve with power. Goku sparring with Gohan isn’t what made the KHH stronger.

 

[Power Level Guy]

You’re oversimplifying kt. Piccolo says Saiyan Saga amp is outdated. He doesn’t say they only now got better than that.

Show me the evidence. From what I can see, Vegeta's amp on Namek is the same as it was on Earth despite a significant boost.

Prove to me exactly where the ki amp improved. Which statement was made that led you to this belief? Where is your evidence?

Ki amp is Ki control. As you said, Ki amp doesn’t improve with power. Goku sparring with Gohan isn’t what made the KHH stronger.

Ki amp is a totally different world of progress from ki power. Two totally separate entities. One does not affect the other. Think of ki amp as developing a new skill, ki power as developing your own strength. Ki power is lifting weights, ki amp is learning a new BJJ technique. Two separate worlds.

 

[GSM123]

Ki amp is a totally different world of progress from ki power. Two totally separate entities. One does not affect the other. Think of ki amp as developing a new skill, ki power as developing your own strength. Ki power is lifting weights, ki amp is learning a new BJJ technique. Two separate worlds.

I said Ki control, not Ki power.

I’ll show you the evidence, but I have to be sure you got the idea first. Vegeta has the same amp on Namek because he hasn’t trained.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I said Ki control, not Ki power.

Ki control is a separate issue from ki amp progression.

I’ll show you the evidence, but I have to be sure you got the idea first. Vegeta has the same amp on Namek because he hasn’t trained.

People train their entire lives and never progress their ki amp. Coming up with new techniques takes time, it never happens in a short time period without dedicated focus on it often highlighted as a new move.

Goku wasn't trying to come up with a super ki blast, he had no time for that. Goku is desperately trying to get strong enough to be able to somewhat compete with people stronger than Vegeta. That's his mission. He has zero time for new techniques.

 

[GSM123]

Ki control is a separate issue from ki amp progression.


People train their entire lives and never progress their ki amp. Coming up with new techniques takes time, it never happens in a short time period without dedicated focus on it often highlighted as a new move.

Goku wasn't trying to come up with a super ki blast, he had no time for that. Goku is desperately trying to get strong enough to be able to somewhat compete with people stronger than Vegeta. That's his mission. He has zero time for new techniques.

How is the ability to gather you Ki and heighten it not Ki control? So what is Ki amp then? Why does it happen? How is it improved?

 

[Power Level Guy]

How is the ability to gather you Ki and heighten it not Ki control? So what is Ki amp then? Why does it happen? How is it improved?

Typically one has to come up with a new technique. Like Vegeta and Piccolo keep doing. Only Goku seems to be capable of reinventing his old technique.

Think of ki amp more like technique than something that just improves.

It's very likely Krillen is still using the original Kamehameha. Because that's what he learned. He never learned Super Kamehameha, or what might be called Ultra Kamehameha later on and so on. These are just techniques. Krillen improved his power tremendously since the 22nd Budokai right, well, let me use Yamcha here because Krillen's KHH was weak back then. Yamcha improved insanely from 22nd Budokai until he fought the Saibamen. Yet, his Kamehameha is most likely the same.

Why? Because that's the technique he learned.

 

[SSJ2]

When you look at the original language, it's just stating that their amps have improved. The downplaying of the previous ki amp is a Viz overstatement as GSM mentioned.

And Piccolo isn’t even that condenscending in the japanese text. Only in Viz he insults Cell.

What manga are you guys reading?

Chapter: 363 (DBZ 169), P9.1-3
Cell: “Son Goku…Piccolo…and Vegeta’s cells were collected during the fight when Vegeta and co. came to Earth…”
Piccolo: “…Goku, from back then huh?...So that’s why your Kamehameha just now wasn’t anything special…”



In what world is this not Piccolo talking down to Cell?

 

[GSM123]

Typically one has to come up with a new technique. Like Vegeta and Piccolo keep doing. Only Goku seems to be capable of reinventing his old technique.

Think of ki amp more like technique than something that just improves.

It's very likely Krillen is still using the original Kamehameha. Because that's what he learned. He never learned Super Kamehameha, or what might be called Ultra Kamehameha later on and so on. These are just techniques. Krillen improved his power tremendously since the 22nd Budokai right, well, let me use Yamcha here because Krillen's KHH was weak back then. Yamcha improved insanely from 22nd Budokai until he fought the Saibamen. Yet, his Kamehameha is most likely the same.

Why? Because that's the technique he learned.

The way I see it, improving their Ki control also improves their Ki amp. It makes no sense to think that Ki control is just about learning suppression. They learn how to better use their powers. All the talk about letting everything out in a single burst applies perfectly to blasts.

On Namek we see how much Goku’s Ki control has improved when he does those burst attacks and when he says he can pull of a Kaioken x10. He has definitely improved his technique to perfection.

For the androids his training was just sparring afaik and his gains weren’t as good as before. He was maxed out. I don’t see any room for him to come up with a Ultra Kamehameha here.

@SSJ2 not being anything special =/= being trash. This doesn’t warrant a 1.33x vs 3-5x difference at all.

 

[SSJ2]

Bro he’s literally laughing at Cell despite pretending to have been beaten by Cell. It doesn’t get much more condescending than that.

 

[GSM123]

The panel you posted is from when Piccolo is still pretending to lose. He’s not laughing.

Btw the vizism I talked about is from when Piccolo tells Kuririn and Trunks in the next chapter. Just thought I’d clear that up.

 

[GSM123]

I’m definitely not opposed to Goku and Piccolo surpassing 416/408. I mean it’s pretty absurd for Goku to be stalling Raditz on his own at that level, even if Raditz was only 800 or so there.

Sorta going back to the main topic for a minute. I think having Goku and Piccolo peak at the 600-700 range would help the Part 1 numbers make a bit more sense.

Goku (Weighted): 334
~ Unweighted: 416
~ Full power: 693 (75% of 924, the KHH level)

Piccolo (Weighted): 322
~ Unweighted: 408
~ Full power: 665 (1/2 of 1330, SBC level)

Kami: 500?
Mr Popo: 375

Tenshinhan FP: 300
Kuririn FP: 240
Yamcha FP: 225

It’s still too small, but better than Kami being 20% above Tenshinhan at most.

 

[SSJ2]

The panel you posted is from when Piccolo is still pretending to lose. He’s not laughing.

Btw the vizism I talked about is from when Piccolo tells Kuririn and Trunks in the next chapter. Just thought I’d clear that up.

You can’t seriously be this blind. Piccolo standing there with a big grin on his face is apparently not being condescending to Cell.

 

[SSJ2]

Sorta going back to the main topic for a minute. I think having Goku and Piccolo peak at the 600-700 range would help the Part 1 numbers make a bit more sense.

Goku (Weighted): 334
~ Unweighted: 416
~ Full power: 693 (75% of 924, the KHH level)

Piccolo (Weighted): 322
~ Unweighted: 408
~ Full power: 665 (1/2 of 1330, SBC level)

Kami: 500?
Mr Popo: 375

Tenshinhan FP: 300
Kuririn FP: 240
Yamcha FP: 225

It’s still too small, but better than Kami being 20% above Tenshinhan at most.

No shot. Kami was fodder to Piccolo. Heavily weakened Piccolo >> Kami and the entire rest of the group.

 

[Power Level Guy]

The way I see it, improving their Ki control also improves their Ki amp. It makes no sense to think that Ki control is just about learning suppression. They learn how to better use their powers. All the talk about letting everything out in a single burst applies perfectly to blasts.

Yeah, like I said, zero evidence. If this was the case, SSJB's training would have warranted a 10x Kamehameha or whatnot. Ki control and ki amp are different things. One is balancing stamina, the other is outputting your ki into a big blast. Two completely different skills.

In what world is this not Piccolo talking down to Cell?

Super Kamehameha > Original Kamehameha type gap is what I'm saying. It's a small incremental difference.

Sorta going back to the main topic for a minute. I think having Goku and Piccolo peak at the 600-700 range would help the Part 1 numbers make a bit more sense.

Yeah, but it's probably better to lower the Kamehameha and raise their power as well.

Kami: 500?
Mr Popo: 375

In your dreams. Battle Damaged Piccolo and Goku were still beyond Kami.

Less than Half Piccolo (23rd Budokai) > Kami

Kami and Popo are trash, they are multifolds weaker than Goku and Piccolo from 5 years ago, let alone today.

No shot. Kami was fodder to Piccolo. Heavily weakened Piccolo >> Kami and the entire rest of the group.

Yep, he doesn't realize once you change one number, you might as well change them all.

 

[GSM123]

You can’t seriously be this blind. Piccolo standing there with a big grin on his face is apparently not being condescending to Cell.

It’s more of a “Heh, I see how you could do it” smirk. Laughing at Cell and calling him weak at this point goes totally against his plan of pretending to be weaker th

The Kamehameha clearly wasn’t that weak if Piccolo had to jump 100m away from it.

No shot. Kami was fodder to Piccolo. Heavily weakened Piccolo >> Kami and the entire rest of the group.

Yeah I imagined. Piccolo can’t even stand up but solos everyone. Worth the attempt at least.

One is balancing stamina, the other is outputting your ki into a big blast. Two completely different skills.

So it’s just a big coincidence that the Super Kamehameha was invented when Goku was training Ki control with Kami?

Super Kamehameha > Original Kamehameha type gap is what I'm saying. It's a small incremental difference.

So Cell was using the original Kamehameha? That’s the only way this could work. Nowhere is it said Goku invented a new Kamehameha.

Yeah, but it's probably better to lower the Kamehameha and raise their power as well.

But we can’t lower the Kamehameha. The number is said in the story. The Kamehameha didn’t get weaker when Goku fired it.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

100% coincidence. Where’s this omega ki amped blast they learned from training with Whis? The level of Ki control required for Ultra Instinct should have jakked the Kamehameha up to 20x amp now. Where is it?

You have to lower the number. It’s contradicted by the story.

 

[GSM123]

@GreatSaiyaman123

100% coincidence. Where’s this omega ki amped blast they learned from training with Whis? The level of Ki control required for Ultra Instinct should have jakked the Kamehameha up to 20x amp now. Where is it?

You have to lower the number. It’s contradicted by the story.

I'm not buying it. Every time Vegeta introduces a new technique, it has a higher amp right? So is Gamma Burst Flash >>> Kamehameha or did he just make a new technique for the pose?

The story is that the Kamehameha has a level of 924+. I dare say it even cracks the 1k range given Raditz's reaction.