Random Pickle Thought

[Pyro]

I'm watching ROF more closely than I did previously, specifically the big battle with Freeza's army. I've seen on Neoseeker particular people claiming the battle showed Tenshinhan was superior to Krillin, and I'm wondering where they got that from. What I'm watching doesn't show this at all.

We see Krillin breathing heavily after firing a chi barrage in the woods, but we saw Tenshinhan breathing heavily before that after firing a Kikoho. We see Krillin flying away from Freeza's men and avoiding being flanked, but...aren't they all, including Piccolo and Gohan, running from Freeza's men to avoid being overwhelmed by sheer number? We see Krillin being rescued by Gohan after hitting a tree and then taking a quick breather at Gohan's suggestion, but how does that mean Krillin is inferior to Tenshinhan at all? Because we never saw Tenshinhan get rescued or take a short breather? It's not like Krillin absolutely needed it, he took it because Gohan was there to hurry things up, and we see moments later that Krillin is back in top shape helping Roshi.

I just don't see what could possibly be compared here. Everyone was more or less doing just as well as everyone else, apart from Gohan who was clearly stated to be holding back and performing non-lethal moves.

 

[Clearin]

It's only really because Krillin ran into a tree and needed to be saved. But that's because Krillin is the comic relief character, that scene would have looked odd if it was Tien.

Krillin does make it seem like he'd have died without Gohan though.

 

[Southern Gothic]

I haven't seen anything like that. The screentime of each character probably makes that deceptive. For one, we see more of Krillin that we do on Tenshinhan, so of course we can see Krillin breathing more, getting hit more. He gets dialogue, while fighting. The only times we see Tenshinhan are quick cut aways just to remind us he is there.

Also, look at the tactics. Krillin either fights out in the open with Jaco or pulls that tactic in the trees to avoid the soldiers. Tenshinhan, on the other hand, uses a Kikoho to take out a bunch of dudes at once.

Didn't Krillin also step in to help Roshi? He may have taken on more than his share of dudes.

Overall no, I don’t see anything to put Tenshinhan over Krillin-san. Ten has literally the least amount of screentime during the fight, and does nothing to establish himself over the others.

 

[POOHEAD189]

All I saw was all of them fighting (screen time matters little. The entire time they are all fighting. Plus the KiKoHo drains him a ton yet he still kept at it, if you're using the argument that it was a simple and easy to use solution against a bunch of foes), Krillin needing help from Gohan and Tien not. I feel like if you don't see something so simple well...
Like I said earlier, I feel like it's the perfect representation of Tien vs. Krillin. Krillin is seen as less impressive but Jaco praises him instead. I honestly think it's because Tien is so quiet no one notices he's there enough to even think of him. Not that it'll sway anyone's minds here. But I saw that in the movie and just went "yeah, that's pretty much it."
However, even though Tien has an edge here, power levels are fucked up in this movie anyway so it matters very little.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

[No message]

 

[POOHEAD189]

[No message]

 

[FutureProtagonist]

[No message]

 

[POOHEAD189]

That doesn't say he didn't help with the movie. That's talking about the comic it originated from. Just because he didn't think it'd get published doesn't mean he didn't provide the base of it and help further. It's canon, whereas Bojack has no Toriyama in it (except maybe art assistance). There was no comic for it either.
Plus Toriyama is generally very light hearted in his interviews. Just because he waves it off as "some silly little thing I made" doesn't change the fact he made it.

And no I'm not trolling, Tenshithands is a joke to Vegeta because he doesn't know how to use his power, Krillin waited for the opportune moment and nearly managed to kill Nappa (would have, were it not for Vegeta).

Not to mention Krillin saving Gohan in the Freeza arc, nearly killing Freeza and providing invaluable aid to Piccolo and Goku in the final fight. Or being courageous enough to challenge Cell, any number of things really. The idea that he can't stand on his own, or is a coward is just your bias.

Stack that against the evidence presented in the manga and straight from Toriyama's mouth, along with several guidebooks and it's the end for Ten.

But hey, Tien is far more "badass" and "serious", so I guess it doesn't matter.

And you're being pretty biased. Especially since you're starting a discussion that veers off from what transpired in the movie. You're trying to turn this into a general Tien vs Krillin thread. And even if I can provide points and quotes to the contrary and flaws in your logic (not to say all Krillin > Tien is flawed. Clearin and Pyrus provide fair arguments), I won't engage in that. We've seen that too much.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

You're trying to turn this into a general Tien vs Krillin thread.

You already did that.

Like I said earlier, I feel like it's the perfect representation of Tien vs. Krillin.

My thesis about the movie is that Toei sees Krillin as a gag character, so he has a gag scene, while they see Tenshinhan as a badass, so he's a badass. This phenomenon is easily observable in basically any DBZ movie you care to name.

I don't care if there's "some" Toriyama in there, it's not straight from Toriyama, it's new material (consistency be damned), it's not canon. Toriyama would never pen that scene with Krillin; absolutely not.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27729&start=26600#p924169

Any time you wish to show, using the manga, that Krillin is a weakling who can't stand on his own, you go right ahead and do that, but you'll be searching for a long time.

 

[POOHEAD189]

You already did that.

Other than me observing that this is how I often see Tien vs. Krillin things, I did nothing of the sort.

My thesis about the movie is that Toei sees Krillin as a gag character, so he has a gag scene, while they see Tenshinhan as a badass, so he's a badass. This phenomenon is easily observable in basically any DBZ movie you care to name.

Other than his Trunks fight, Tien is never seen as any kind of threat in any DBZ movie.

I don't care if there's "some" Toriyama in there, it's not straight from Toriyama, it's new material (consistency be damned), it's not canon. Toriyama would never pen that scene with Krillin; absolutely not.

This sounds pretty personal. I'll just go ahead and quote my edit.

Plus Toriyama is generally very light hearted in his interviews. Just because he waves it off as "some silly little thing I made" doesn't change the fact he made it.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27729&start=26600#p924169

Any time you wish to show, using the manga, that Krillin is a weakling who can't stand on his own, you go right ahead and do that, but you'll be searching for a long time.

I never said that, nor do I think Krillin is a weakling at all. I like Krillin a lot. Who wouldn't? But in the movie he needed help. It's simple.

Please, only speak of the movie and not in general. Either way, I made my points. Good day sir.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Other than me observing that this is how I often see Tien vs. Krillin things, I did nothing of the sort.

Bringing up Tien vs Krillin isn't bringing up Tien vs Krillin, huh? You took what was in the movie, and tied into the the Tien vs Krillin debate as a whole. Only natural that I question your very premise and line of thought, considering nothing remotely resembling what happens in this move exists outside of it.

Other than his Trunks fight, Tien is never seen as any kind of threat in any DBZ movie.

Doesn't need to be a threat to be portrayed as a "badass", he just needs to look cool and fight seriously. He does that. Krillin, on the other hand, gets mocked by Piccolo or trips and slams his balls into an icicle.

Plus Toriyama is generally very light hearted in his interviews. Just because he waves it off as "some silly little thing I made" doesn't change the fact he made it.

Right. He made a memo about what the basic structure of the movie would be. There's a pretty significant dividing line between that and writing a real script. A real script contains exact descriptions of every event and line of dialog in the movie; Toriyama explictly makes it clear that what he wrote is not that. I don't care if it's "lighthearted".

I never said that, nor do I think Krillin is a weakling at all. I like Krillin a lot. Who wouldn't? But in the movie he needed help. It's simple.

There you go moving the goalposts. First you claimed that this encapsulated some recurring theme you've seen throughout the series, now you claim your point only pertained to the movie. Do you need to be reminded of what you said?

Like I said earlier, I feel like it's the perfect representation of Tien vs. Krillin.

This implies that you have something from somewhere else that falls into line with what the movie had, so do not claim that you are speaking only of the movie. If not, then what you're saying is "I think this is how Tien vs Krillin should be, so even if it's inconsistent with the manga, I'm going to run with it." If you're going to tell me that you aren't speaking in general, then I'm really going to have to question why you think this is a "perfect" representation of Ten vs Krillin because you should have come up with this thesis by reading other media.

Please, only speak of the movie and not in general.

Follow your own advice.

 

[POOHEAD189]

Ok now I'm sure you're trolling. Or you're angry at something. So before bed I'll make this quick.
Me saying this is how I often see Tien vs Krillin is not the same as me bringing up quotes about which one is superior throughout the series and going saga by saga trying to prove which is better in the android arc, cell arc, buu arc, etc. And one other way I'm certain you're trolling is that your first quotes was for a saga where Tien vs Krillin isn't even debated. Pretty much everyone knows Tien > Krillin in the Saiyan arc. Somehow you seem to think an offhand comment implies a giant general debate though. It does not. If you saw something in a movie and then said "this is a good representation of how this always is to me" I'd still only discuss what happened in the movie to you, because you were bringing up a thought and opinion of how you often view things. Plus that comment wasn't even a Tien biased one. Because people who argue FOR krillin use the quotes, like I said they did. It's a mere observation. Not a real argument, going in guns blazing. So no, I won't engage in that.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Ok now I'm sure you're trolling. Or you're angry at something.

Nothing of the sort, but that's an easy way to deflect criticism, I suppose. I guess I don't appreciate being called a troll.

I'm certain you're trolling is that your first quotes was for a saga where Tien vs Krillin isn't even debated. Pretty much everyone knows Tien > Krillin in the Saiyan arc.

Slow down there for a second, I do not contend that Tenshinhan is stronger in the Saiyan arc, you misunderstood the point of that quote. Your thesis is about Krillin's attitude/temperament vs Tenshinhan's attitude/temperament as well as power. That quote is my way of countering that: Krillin isn't some worthless gag character who makes mistakes and needs to be bailed out like he is in the movie. In many ways, his combat skills have been portrayed as superior to Tenshinhan's. Krillin is the only human to have been given a compliment by Vegeta, and on multiple occasions. If that doesn't say something about him, I'm not sure what does.

Somehow you seem to think an offhand comment implies a giant general debate though. It does not.

I believe it does. Saying that this movie encapsulated your view of Tenshinhan vs Krillin as a whole is a pretty heavy opinion, one that I strongly disagree with. It may have been an offhanded comment, but you're saying a lot, just like this offhanded comment says a lot:

Resurrection F perfectly encapsulates my beliefs about Cell Games Piccolo vs Zarbon.

An offhanded comment, but one that comes with a lot of implications and demands further inquiry, exaggerated for effect, but not unlike yours.

It is not too much to ask for you to explain why you believe that scene perfectly encapsulates Tien vs Krillin is it? It's not unreasonable for me to provide my view on the subject either.

 

[POOHEAD189]

Nothing of the sort, but that's an easy way to deflect criticism, I suppose. I guess I don't appreciate being called a troll.

I apologize if I offended you. I wasn't trying to dismiss you, but I was honestly confused on why this turned into this.

Slow down there for a second, I do not contend that Tenshinhan is stronger in the Saiyan arc, you misunderstood the point of that quote. Your thesis is about Krillin's attitude/temperament vs Tenshinhan's attitude/temperament as well as power. That quote is my way of countering that: Krillin isn't some worthless gag character who makes mistakes and needs to be bailed out like he is in the movie. In many ways, his combat skills have been portrayed as superior to Tenshinhan's. Krillin is the only human to have been given a compliment by Vegeta, and on multiple occasions. If that doesn't say something about him, I'm not sure what does.

My entire point was on their power. If you want to discuss skill we can make an extra thread for that.

I believe it does. Saying that this movie encapsulated your view of Tenshinhan vs Krillin as a whole is a pretty heavy opinion, one that I strongly disagree with. It may have been an offhanded comment, but you're saying a lot, just like this offhanded comment says a lot:

Resurrection F perfectly encapsulates my beliefs about Cell Games Piccolo vs Zarbon.

I can see how you'd think that, but honestly, while my opinion sways towards Tien being superior, yes, it was simply stating that while Tien is seen doing things Krillin is seen being talked about. It doesn't need to be a Tien > Krillin comment (though yes I was implying that). Whereas Cell Games Piccolo vs. Zarbon needs an elaborate explanation. I apologize again though, if that opinion was heavy enough for you to wish to debate it. But we'd probably need a separate thread for that. Or a PMing session. I will go ahead and say it was my bad.

 

[Pyro]

Well, this spiraled. Naturally.

 

[Pyro]

All I saw was all of them fighting (screen time matters little. The entire time they are all fighting. Plus the KiKoHo drains him a ton yet he still kept at it, if you're using the argument that it was a simple and easy to use solution against a bunch of foes), Krillin needing help from Gohan and Tien not. I feel like if you don't see something so simple well...
Like I said earlier, I feel like it's the perfect representation of Tien vs. Krillin. Krillin is seen as less impressive but Jaco praises him instead. I honestly think it's because Tien is so quiet no one notices he's there enough to even think of him. Not that it'll sway anyone's minds here. But I saw that in the movie and just went "yeah, that's pretty much it."
However, even though Tien has an edge here, power levels are fucked up in this movie anyway so it matters very little.

I just have to wonder one thing. Do you think Jaco is superior to Krillin? Because he was shown to never need rescuing in his fight, as opposed to Krillin. So if that's the only thing that's putting Ten ahead, then Jaco has to be ahead of Krillin too, doesn't he? It's the same merit.

 

[Clearin]

Are we ignoring context? Because if so I want to say Roshi is stronger than Gohan because Roshi only ate one senzu bean and Gohan ate two.

 

[Yoshi]

Ok now I'm sure you're trolling. Or you're angry at something.

You're a dumbass. You do know Toriyama just wrote a note to Toei Animation and they were the ones who made that awful movie and bastardized his name, right? This means FNF is definitely non-canon. Not only that, there is nothing to back up Tenshithands as the strongest human in the Manga, and we even have a quote in the Boo Arc that sites Krillin as the strongest human. You are literally arguing against objective fact, man.

 

[Clearin]

Has the screenplay that Toriyama wrote actually been released online? It would be good at telling us which parts were by him or not.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Ok now I'm sure you're trolling. Or you're angry at something.

You're a dumbass. You do know Toriyama just wrote a note to Toei Animation and they were the ones who made that awful movie and bastardized his name, right? This means FNF is definitely non-canon. Not only that, there is nothing to back up Tenshithands as the strongest human in the Manga, and we even have a quote in the Boo Arc that sites Krillin as the strongest human. You are literally arguing against objective fact, man.

not sure why u need to start insulting members around here

maybe that's the reason why u got demoted

not h8ing bro