Random Pickle Thought

[FutureProtagonist]

Has the screenplay that Toriyama wrote actually been released online? It would be good at telling us which parts were by him or not.

It was included in Volume F, but Kanzenshuu hasn't translated it.

 

[Southern Gothic]

Yes, no name calling please. I only really enforce two rules: no direct insults and no posting porn. That's a pretty easy yard to navigate, ya'll.

 

[Clearin]

Has the screenplay that Toriyama wrote actually been released online? It would be good at telling us which parts were by him or not.

It was included in Volume F, but Kanzenshuu hasn't translated it.

Yeah that's what I was referring to. I was hoping somebody in Japan had got their hands on it and translated it online like most leaked Super chapters.

 

[Yoshi]

Yeah, I guess I overreacted when I called POOHEAD a dumbass. I keep forgetting this isn't Shinden.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Has the screenplay that Toriyama wrote actually been released online? It would be good at telling us which parts were by him or not.

It was included in Volume F, but Kanzenshuu hasn't translated it.

Yeah that's what I was referring to. I was hoping somebody in Japan had got their hands on it and translated it online like most leaked Super chapters.

I posted a request for further information on the subject on Kanzenshuu. Hopefully I get some kind of response. This could be a very interesting subject.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Looks like I'm going to have to eat my cake here:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15533&start=1540#p1008891

Apparently it is basically the full script. I suppose I'll have to tentatively concede that Toriyama did write Krillin flying into a tree.

 

[Clearin]

It's vague enough that almost anything could have been written by Toriyama or added by Toei really. We'll have no idea unless we get the full thing.

On the plus side, we know Shishami wasn't included in the "as strong as Dodoria/Zarbon" in Toriyama's script, so we can ignore that to remove one bullshit power level.

 

[Pyro]

It's vague enough that almost anything could have been written by Toriyama or added by Toei really. We'll have no idea unless we get the full thing.

On the plus side, we know Shishami wasn't included in the "as strong as Dodoria/Zarbon" in Toriyama's script, so we can ignore that to remove one bullshit power level.

Now we just need to get rid of that 1,300,000 level.

 

[Clearin]

My new canon is Shishami was a soldier that Freeza recruited sometime during his training. It'd be weird if Shishami is Piccolo's level when Freeza is revived considering he'd dwarf Freeza's power, but if Freeza was already surpassing Boo by the time they found Shishami then everything works out perfectly.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

My new canon is Shishami was a soldier that Freeza recruited sometime during his training. It'd be weird if Shishami is Piccolo's level when Freeza is revived considering he'd dwarf Freeza's power, but if Freeza was already surpassing Boo by the time they found Shishami then everything works out perfectly.

shisami was already there

sorbet even introduced him to freeza, saying he is on-par with zarbon & dodoria at their peaks

also shisami was in the space-ship at the beginning

 

[Clearin]

My new canon is Shishami was a soldier that Freeza recruited sometime during his training. It'd be weird if Shishami is Piccolo's level when Freeza is revived considering he'd dwarf Freeza's power, but if Freeza was already surpassing Boo by the time they found Shishami then everything works out perfectly.

shisami was already there

sorbet even introduced him to freeza, saying he is on-par with zarbon & dodoria at their peaks

also shisami was in the space-ship at the beginning

If you look at the link FP posted, somebody on Kanzenshuu mentioned how Toriyama's script was changed, but only slightly, and one of the few changes he mentioned was the fact Shishami wasn't there when Freeza was first revived in Toriyama's script. So Toriyama never intended Shishami to be included in the Zarbon/Dodoria comment, and arguably might not have intended him to be in Freeza's army at all by that point (why would he not introduce a Piccolo level character that early himself?)

 

[Southern Gothic]

Okay, POOHEAD, I have a couple points where I feel differently about your original post. For the record, my stance isn't to say that FnF portrayed Krillin > Ten. Truthfully, I just feel that nothing was really established one way or another. Even Piccolo was sweating before he fought Sisami.

First, I do think screentime is important. Or rather, it can be important, provided the scenario. Here I think it counts for something. Not as proof positive, but rather in a circumstantial kind of way. All in all, we see Tenshinhan pop a few guys and roll out a Kikoho. On the other hand, Krillin uses a Kienzan to drop a cliff in water, flies through the forest, talks with Jaco while fighting, and dicks around with soldiers at random moments.

There is just overall more going on with him. If Ten had gotten similar screentime doing as much, I might be inclined to say he was portrayed as the stronger of the two. As it stands, I just don't see enough since it's arguable that all of the Z Fighters, save maybe Gohan, were somewhat on the ropes with Freeza's men.

I disagree slightly about the Kikoho too, as you mentioned it. A full on Kikoho usually weakens the lifeforce, true enough. However, if I can't see Tenshinhan in FnF using the same power behind the attack as he did against Cell and Majin Boo. If he did, those goons would be painted all over the wall. I believe he had to be nerfing the attack, meaning that either he can arguably spam more of them, or one use isn't going to drain him much.

I bring up the Kikoho because I think we were sort of in disagreement whether the way it was used in FnF was kind ofva cheap tactic to thin the heard. The stuff I wrote is why I did indeed feel he way doing so, although I don't hold it against him, lol.


@FutureProtagonist, can't blame ya for thinking what you did about Toriyama's involvement. The way he made it sound in the memo was that he had basically turned in single page of notes. 53 pages may not be a full script, but it is certainly considered a "treatment" by Hollywood standards, and is enough to start production.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Well, the thing about 53 pages drew my attention as well. When I took (high school) film class, the general rule I heard was that 1 page of script = 1 minute of runtime. I was going to bring that up to the fellow that posted the response, but then I thought about Toriyama said about the script, that potential screenwriters should not use it as an example of how to write a script. That led me to believe that its layout is just kind of freeform, and each page might contain more information than a page in a regular script would, though it is interesting what he said about transposing it to a word document results in. Generally scripts have a lot of white space, a word document would not.

I'm not sure honestly.

 

[POOHEAD189]

Looks like I'm going to have to eat my cake here:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15533&start=1540#p1008891

Apparently it is basically the full script. I suppose I'll have to tentatively concede that Toriyama did write Krillin flying into a tree.

It's ok. I can see why you'd have thought otherwise. Toei DOES make Krillin a gag character in movies. I wouldn't feel bad about it. It's an understandable thought.

I just have to wonder one thing. Do you think Jaco is superior to Krillin? Because he was shown to never need rescuing in his fight, as opposed to Krillin. So if that's the only thing that's putting Ten ahead, then Jaco has to be ahead of Krillin too, doesn't he? It's the same merit.

Maybe he is. Jaco seemed to be pretty tricky with everything he did though too. Perhaps he mainly evaded the enemies and took them out as best he can. But if he's superior to Krillin, I wouldn't think it's too farfetched (although I do kinda think he's just a bit more cautious with his foes since he seemed so reluctant to fight earlier).
However, even if Tien IS stronger than Krillin in the movie, the movie PL matters little even if it's canon since everything seems so skewed. Although if I read what Clearin posted earlier correctly, one of the big inconsistent PL's wasn't there because of AT at all. (That 1,300,000 is still pretty BS though).

Okay, POOHEAD, I have a couple points where I feel differently about your original post. For the record, my stance isn't to say that FnF portrayed Krillin > Ten. Truthfully, I just feel that nothing was really established one way or another. Even Piccolo was sweating before he fought Sisami.

First, I do think screentime is important. Or rather, it can be important, provided the scenario. Here I think it counts for something. Not as proof positive, but rather in a circumstantial kind of way. All in all, we see Tenshinhan pop a few guys and roll out a Kikoho. On the other hand, Krillin uses a Kienzan to drop a cliff in water, flies through the forest, talks with Jaco while fighting, and dicks around with soldiers at random moments.

There is just overall more going on with him. If Ten had gotten similar screentime doing as much, I might be inclined to say he was portrayed as the stronger of the two. As it stands, I just don't see enough since it's arguable that all of the Z Fighters, save maybe Gohan, were somewhat on the ropes with Freeza's men.

I think all of them were on the ropes, but I guess we just have differing viewpoints with this one. I feel as if, since the fight had commenced, everyone was fighting until the last guy was down. Krillin gets more screentime since he is more popular, which is also why I think Toriyama generally talks about Krillin and not Tien. Krillin is more outspoken and both Toriyama and the Public want to see him more. But unless something shows that Tien wasn't fighting during the time everyone was fighting, I have to respectfully disagree.

I disagree slightly about the Kikoho too, as you mentioned it. A full on Kikoho usually weakens the lifeforce, true enough. However, if I can't see Tenshinhan in FnF using the same power behind the attack as he did against Cell and Majin Boo. If he did, those goons would be painted all over the wall. I believe he had to be nerfing the attack, meaning that either he can arguably spam more of them, or one use isn't going to drain him much.

I bring up the Kikoho because I think we were sort of in disagreement whether the way it was used in FnF was kind ofva cheap tactic to thin the heard. The stuff I wrote is why I did indeed feel he way doing so, although I don't hold it against him, lol.

I DO think he's probably trained his KiKoHo more, like how in DB one could have maybe killed him if used wrong but he used 8 against Semi Perfect Cell. Not that I think it makes much difference and it still drains him more than any other ki attack he could do, but I agree it probably wasn't as draining as a normal full powered one, yes.

Also, thanks Clearin for asking the questions that clear everything up.

 

[Southern Gothic]

 

[Papasmurf]

I DO think he's probably trained his KiKoHo more, like how in DB one could have maybe killed him if used wrong but he used 8 against Semi Perfect Cell. Not that I think it makes much difference and it still drains him more than any other ki attack he could do, but I agree it probably wasn't as draining as a normal full powered one, yes.

Also, thanks Clearin for asking the questions that clear everything up.

Just checked the manga and he actually fired off at least 10, but yeah he's definitely reduced the strain of using Kikoho a great deal by that point.