RoF Power Chain Anime

[FeatsofPower]

Base Gohan from the Buu Saga blows Piccolo out of the water.

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

Base Gohan from the Buu Saga blows Piccolo out of the water.

At what point? Base Gohan in the beginning of the Buu Saga slacked off and was weaker than his Cell Game's self. CG Gohan was never stronger than Piccolo in base.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Base Kid Gohan is way stronger than Piccolo.

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

Base Kid Gohan is way stronger than Piccolo.

Piccolo fought the Cell Jrs in his "base" form. Kid Gohan wasn't going to be able to pull that off in base.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo's survival feats apparently were drastically overstated. He's strong enough to survive a Cell Jr who's toying around with him, that's his only feat. He's weaker than Base Teen Gohan, let alone Base Kid Gohan.

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

Piccolo's survival feats apparently were drastically overstated. He's strong enough to survive a Cell Jr who's toying around with him, that's his only feat. He's weaker than Base Teen Gohan, let alone Base Kid Gohan.

Piccolo was still standing even after Cell ordered the Cell Jrs to fight seriously and kill the Z fighters. So you're saying you think weak Buu Saga Gohan is beating a Cell Jr in base?

Vegeta and Trunks were struggling against the Cell Jrs while transformed. How much stronger do you think MSS Gohan was than Vegeta after his two trips into the HBTC? 30%, 50%, 2x, 5x? Even if you said something like he was 5x stronger, which he wasn't, that would mean Gohan's base in the Cell Games would have to have been as strong or stronger than Trunks and Vegeta while they were transformed. You think Gohan's base was 50x Vegeta/Trunks base?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo was still standing even after Cell ordered the Cell Jrs to fight seriously and kill the Z fighters. So you're saying you think weak Buu Saga Gohan is beating a Cell Jr in base?

Vegeta and Trunks were struggling against the Cell Jrs while transformed. How much stronger do you think MSS Gohan was than Vegeta after his two trips into the HBTC? 30%, 50%, 2x, 5x? Even if you said something like he was 5x stronger, which he wasn't, that would mean Gohan's base in the Cell Games would have to have been as strong or stronger than Trunks and Vegeta while they were transformed. You think Gohan's base was 50x Vegeta/Trunks base?

The Cell Jr's didn't kill anyone so they didn't follow through on Cell's orders.

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

The Cell Jr's didn't kill anyone so they didn't follow through on Cell's orders.

Doesn't matter. The Cell Jrs were equal with Vegeta and Trunks. Who were a bit stronger than Piccolo at best. If base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, then that would mean you have base Gohan =/> SS CG Vegeta/Trunks. So while a MSS, Gohan would have been > 50x stronger than Vegeta and the Cell Jrs. You really think SS Gohan was >50x stronger than Vegeta?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Crazy to see P arguing against Piccolo holding his own vs the Cell Jrs when he pretty much created this argument back then

 

[FeatsofPower]

Doesn't matter. The Cell Jrs were equal with Vegeta and Trunks. Who were a bit stronger than Piccolo at best. If base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, then that would mean you have base Gohan =/> SS CG Vegeta/Trunks. So while a MSS, Gohan would have been > 50x stronger than Vegeta and the Cell Jrs. You really think SS Gohan was >50x stronger than Vegeta?

In Super, characters are hundreds of times, if not thousands of times more powerful and their opponents are able to hold their own for a while.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Crazy to see P arguing against Piccolo holding his own vs the Cell Jrs when he pretty much created this argument back then

Yeah most of my debates are just going against positions I've previously held. I'm always debating myself lol.

With the Buu Saga/RoF logic, we are forced to accept Piccolo's weakness, the arguments are straight trash, but I'm trying out here haha

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

In Super, characters are hundreds of times, if not thousands of times more powerful and their opponents are able to hold their own for a while.

That took place in Z, not Super. There is also no evidence in Z to support base Gohan being > 50x stronger than Piccolo. Using Super as an example, is an association fallacy. What's your case here? The burden of proof is on you.

 

[FeatsofPower]

That took place in Z, not Super. There is also no evidence in Z to support base Gohan being > 50x stronger than Piccolo. Using Super as an example, is an association fallacy. What's your case here? The burden of proof is on you.

Super Saiyan isn't necessarily 50x.

Later sagas overwrite precious sagas.

The Buu Saga is clear that the Base Saiyans are the top dogs, it seems implied that the Base Saiyans are well beyond someone who is dimensions above Piccolo.

 

[Goku9001]

Base Gohan was stated to be stronger than Piccolo by Tagoma. There's no denying a concrete statement.

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

Super Saiyan isn't necessarily 50x.

It is firmly established against Frieza that it is at least close. Goku used KKx20 against Frieza when he was at 1/2 power and still could not win. Meaning that had Goku used a hypothetical KKx40 he would lose to full power Frieza. Yet when Goku does get SS he is able to defeat Frieza. This means that SS has to be stronger than KKx40 at the absolute minimal and that's a low ball.

Later sagas overwrite precious sagas.

This still wouldn't make you right when the Cell Game's happened. It would mean a retcon happened. This is also you assuming the post sagas establish a different power level for Piccolo back then which is does not. So a retcon didn't happen.

Piccolo gets stoned by Dabura right out the gates. There is no way to establish his power in conjunction to his CG self. Only that he should be stronger than he was after having 7 more years to train. Piccolo's power is not changed during this time by Buu Saga, therefore Buu Saga being a later saga is irrelevant.

The Buu Saga is clear that the Base Saiyans are the top dogs, it seems implied that the Base Saiyans are well beyond someone who is dimensions above Piccolo.

implied=/=clear

Are you talking about Shin? Piccolo saying the word dimensions is disambiguation. This is a baseless assumption. Piccolo's use of words here is open to interpretation. He could have just been referring to Shin's status as a Supreme Kai. Even if it were to be taken at face value, why would he enter a tournament with the saiyans if he felt they would stomp him in their base forms?

18 also shows otherwise. According to you, the Saiyans are >50x than there CG selves. Yet in the Buu Saga, Gohan thinks Goten is comparable to him and that he was worried Goten and Trunks would pass him if he didn't continue to train. This puts Goten at least somewhat comparable to Buu Saga Gohan whom you claim is >50x stronger than Piccolo. The same Piccolo who was already stronger than 18 after fusing with Kami. The same 18 who fought the same Goten and Trunks who scale to Gohan who you say is >50x than Piccolo. This would form a chain of: Buu Saga Base Gohan > Buu Saga Piccolo > CG Piccolo > Kamiccolo > 18 > Base Goten/Trunks = Buu Saga Base Gohan??? How does that work?

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

Base Gohan was stated to be stronger than Piccolo by Tagoma. There's no denying a concrete statement.

In RoF, not Buu Saga or Cell Saga.

 

[Goku9001]

In RoF, not Buu Saga or Cell Saga.

How strong is RoF Gohan?

 

[FeatsofPower]

It is firmly established against Frieza that it is at least close. Goku used KKx20 against Frieza when he was at 1/2 power and still could not win. Meaning that had Goku used a hypothetical KKx40 he would lose to full power Frieza. Yet when Goku does get SS he is able to defeat Frieza. This means that SS has to be stronger than KKx40 at the absolute minimal and that's a low ball.

Base Goku's energy was restored after acquiring Super Saiyan. It's quite possible that when his power was restored, he also received a zenkai. Base Goku while dealing with a weakened 100% Freeza seems much more capable than the Base Goku who was getting trashed by Warm Up Freeza. If we look at later sagas, it seems the implication is there that Super Saiyan is indeed 10x and therefore Goku must have received a zenkai when he acquired Super Saiyan against Freeza. It would be the only way to keep things consistent.

This still wouldn't make you right when the Cell Game's happened. It would mean a retcon happened. This is also you assuming the post sagas establish a different power level for Piccolo back then which is does not. So a retcon didn't happen.

Indeed. Ok, after thinking about your position, the most accurate answer would be to say that Piccolo is > 50% Goku at the CG and then Toriyama either forgot or retcons Piccolo's strength in the Buu Saga to be below the Base Saiyans. This thought seems continued into RoF as well.

Piccolo gets stoned by Dabura right out the gates. There is no way to establish his power in conjunction to his CG self. Only that he should be stronger than he was after having 7 more years to train. Piccolo's power is not changed during this time by Buu Saga, therefore Buu Saga being a later saga is irrelevant.

Piccolo is called trash by Dabura and Badibi in comparison to the Base Saiyans. Everyone in the cast and audience thinks Piccolo is below Kaioshin, who is implied to be beneath the Base Saiyans. The Saiyans intend to fight the Tournament in Base and win and Piccolo is of no concern. Gohan literally watches Piccolo quit against someone, then goes to fight his friend and never once considers Super Saiyan.

The evidence against Piccolo is far too strong.

18 also shows otherwise. According to you, the Saiyans are >50x than there CG selves. Yet in the Buu Saga, Gohan thinks Goten is comparable to him and that he was worried Goten and Trunks would pass him if he didn't continue to train. This puts Goten at least somewhat comparable to Buu Saga Gohan whom you claim is >50x stronger than Piccolo. The same Piccolo who was already stronger than 18 after fusing with Kami. The same 18 who fought the same Goten and Trunks who scale to Gohan who you say is >50x than Piccolo. This would form a chain of: Buu Saga Base Gohan > Buu Saga Piccolo > CG Piccolo > Kamiccolo > 18 > Base Goten/Trunks = Buu Saga Base Gohan??? How does that work?

No, the Buu Saga Saiyans are comparable to the CG Saiyans. Sure, Goku and Vegeta are stronger, but they are comparable. The only explanation is Piccolo's power has been retconned. So we can choose to dismiss previous feats as fallaciously pointing towards something, or we can accept an outright retcon. Either way, Base Saiyans > Piccolo is true in the Buu Saga.

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

Base Goku's energy was restored after acquiring Super Saiyan. It's quite possible that when his power was restored, he also received a zenkai. Base Goku while dealing with a weakened 100% Freeza seems much more capable than the Base Goku who was getting trashed by Warm Up Freeza. If we look at later sagas, it seems the implication is there that Super Saiyan is indeed 10x and therefore Goku must have received a zenkai when he acquired Super Saiyan against Freeza. It would be the only way to keep things consistent.

Baseless claim that he got a zenkai. The answer is much more simple. Plot required base Goku to not inst-die to 100% Frieza. If base Goku was near 100% Frieza, then SS Goku should have 1-shot him, even if it was only 10x power increase. Changing the SS multiplier to 10 would not be consistent considering he just showed us earlier that a possible KKx40 wasn't enough. Plot-Induced Stupidity doesn't justify a baseless claim that Goku HAD to get a zenkai. There is no evidence for this otherwise. Base Goku survived due to PIS, nothing more.

Indeed. Ok, after thinking about your position, the most accurate answer would be to say that Piccolo is > 50% Goku at the CG and then Toriyama either forgot or retcons Piccolo's strength in the Buu Saga to be below the Base Saiyans. This thought seems continued into RoF as well.

IF, a retcon did take place, it's thrown out the window by 18 overpowering Goten and Trunks when she is much weaker than CG Piccolo, let alone Buu Saga Piccolo. Later feats/statements trump old ones, remember?

Piccolo is called trash by Dabura and Badibi in comparison to the Base Saiyans. Everyone in the cast and audience thinks Piccolo is below Kaioshin, who is implied to be beneath the Base Saiyans. The Saiyans intend to fight the Tournament in Base and win and Piccolo is of no concern. Gohan literally watches Piccolo quit against someone, then goes to fight his friend and never once considers Super Saiyan.

Piccolo himself says if it had been anyone else he would not have thrown the match. Which means he felt comfortable fighting anyone including the saiyans. He specifically singles out Shin. Since Shin is not the most powerful person at the tournament, it is safe to say Piccolo withdrawing was not due to power reasons. He also tells Vegeta to show Shin respect for his position as Supreme Kai. You are misinterpreting what Piccolo said and his words support this.

No, the Buu Saga Saiyans are comparable to the CG Saiyans. Sure, Goku and Vegeta are stronger, but they are comparable. The only explanation is Piccolo's power has been retconned. So we can choose to dismiss previous feats as fallaciously pointing towards something, or we can accept an outright retcon. Either way, Base Saiyans > Piccolo is true in the Buu Saga.

Your whole argument relies on Shin being stronger. Which the above paragraph says he is not. Piccolo willingly entered a tournament knowing he would have to face the saiyans, scales massively above 18 who fought Goten and Trunks, and specifies his withdraw was not for power reasons like you want it to be. Nothing suggest he was weaker or got retconned. Your use of a "loaded" statement does not help your case. Piccolo being stronger makes more sense. Why he was willing to face the saiyans, made such a big deal out of Shin's position and not power, and scales above the base saiyans even in the Buu Saga.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Baseless claim that he got a zenkai. The answer is much more simple. Plot required base Goku to not inst-die to 100% Frieza. If base Goku was near 100% Frieza, then SS Goku should have 1-shot him, even if it was only 10x power increase. Changing the SS multiplier to 10 would not be consistent considering he just showed us earlier that a possible KKx40 wasn't enough. Plot-Induced Stupidity doesn't justify a baseless claim that Goku HAD to get a zenkai. There is no evidence for this otherwise. Base Goku survived due to PIS, nothing more.

Negative, the entire manga of all Super Saiyan transformations suggest a zenkai is the best answer for consistency in this universe.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying, let me outline it. I think this is probably our best approach.


Base Goku 3,000,000
KKx10 Goku 30,000,000
KKx20 Goku 60,000,000

Weakened Goku Goku 750,000

Refreshed Goku W/ Zenkai 15,000,000
Super Saiyan 150,000,000

See?