RoF Power Chain Anime

[FeatsofPower]

IF, a retcon did take place, it's thrown out the window by 18 overpowering Goten and Trunks when she is much weaker than CG Piccolo, let alone Buu Saga Piccolo. Later feats/statements trump old ones, remember?

How does that affect the retcon? Piccolo got retconned from around 50% Goku to say Semi Perfect Cell level. 18 has nothing to do with this.

Piccolo himself says if it had been anyone else he would not have thrown the match. Which means he felt comfortable fighting anyone including the saiyans. He specifically singles out Shin. Since Shin is not the most powerful person at the tournament, it is safe to say Piccolo withdrawing was not due to power reasons. He also tells Vegeta to show Shin respect for his position as Supreme Kai. You are misinterpreting what Piccolo said and his words support this.

Piccolo can't beat the Saiyans, yet he shows up. He has absolutely no chance against the Super Saiyans and even the Base Saiyans don't respect his power.

Every piece of source material has Kaioshin > Piccolo, are you going to be the one guy suggesting otherwise?

Your whole argument relies on Shin being stronger. Which the above paragraph says he is not. Piccolo willingly entered a tournament knowing he would have to face the saiyans, scales massively above 18 who fought Goten and Trunks, and specifies his withdraw was not for power reasons like you want it to be. Nothing suggest he was weaker or got retconned. Your use of a "loaded" statement does not help your case. Piccolo being stronger makes more sense. Why he was willing to face the saiyans, made such a big deal out of Shin's position and not power, and scales above the base saiyans even in the Buu Saga.

No, Kaioshin > Piccolo is only one source. The Base Saiyans confidence at the Budokai is another source, and Badibi and Dabura's dismissal of Piccolo is another one.

RoF is the final straw in the hat. Base Gohan >>> Piccolo proves that Piccolo is nowhere near strong enough.

We know Base Gohan isn't even as strong as Ssj Trunks, so Piccolo is nothing.

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

How does that affect the retcon? Piccolo got retconned from around 50% Goku to say Semi Perfect Cell level. 18 has nothing to do with this.

Because a retcon didn't take place in Buu Saga. You claim Gohan was >50x Piccolo in base. Again, Gohan says Goten is comparable to him in power. Which would put Goten also at 50x Piccolo in base. Yet this Goten struggles with 18. Either 18 powered up massively, which she didn't, or Piccolo is stronger than base Goten/Gohan.

Piccolo can't beat the Saiyans, yet he shows up. He has absolutely no chance against the Super Saiyans and even the Base Saiyans don't respect his power.

Every piece of source material has Kaioshin > Piccolo, are you going to be the one guy suggesting otherwise?

You're grouping Shin with the base saiyans as if they're equals. Shin could just be stronger than the base saiyans himself. His feats suggest this. So if he's stronger than Piccolo, it doesn't mean Piccolo can't also be stronger than the base saiyans.

No, Kaioshin > Piccolo is only one source. The Base Saiyans confidence at the Budokai is another source, and Badibi and Dabura's dismissal of Piccolo is another one.

Piccolo was confident he could win too, so that's a moot point.

Babadi and Dabura's dismissal of Piccolo can be because he was suppressed when hiding from Dabura. Regardless, it's a bad comparison considering Dabura calls Gohan trash as well and said he could handle him easily. Does that mean Gohan was weaker than base Goku/Vegeta?

RoF is the final straw in the hat. Base Gohan >>> Piccolo proves that Piccolo is nowhere near strong enough.

We know Base Gohan isn't even as strong as Ssj Trunks, so Piccolo is nothing.

In RoF I agree. Tagoma tells us this clearly.

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

Negative, the entire manga of all Super Saiyan transformations suggest a zenkai is the best answer for consistency in this universe.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying, let me outline it. I think this is probably our best approach.


Base Goku 3,000,000
KKx10 Goku 30,000,000
KKx20 Goku 60,000,000

Weakened Goku Goku 750,000

Refreshed Goku W/ Zenkai 15,000,000
Super Saiyan 150,000,000

See?

There is the problem. Suggest =/= fact. This is still a baseless claim. Daizenshuu 7 tells us base Goku is 3 million. Times SS/50x is 150 million. It is never suggested in universe he got a zenkai and we have feats from KK that show SS has to be greater than 40x in power. Goku didn't get a zenkai. You are using circular reasoning.

 

[Goku9001]

How strong is RoF Base Gohan?

 

[FeatsofPower]

There is the problem. Suggest =/= fact. This is still a baseless claim. Daizenshuu 7 tells us base Goku is 3 million. Times SS/50x is 150 million. It is never suggested in universe he got a zenkai and we have feats from KK that show SS has to be greater than 40x in power. Goku didn't get a zenkai. You are using circular reasoning.

No I'm making an inference based on a deductive argument

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

No I'm making an inference based on a deductive argument

A deductive argument is the presentation of statements that are assumed or known to be true as premises for a conclusion that necessarily follows from those statements.

Which would require the premise to be true through evidence. In this case, Goku getting a zenkai is the premise but there is no real evidence for this. Since the premise is wrong, the conclusion is wrong. There is no proof Goku got a zenkai. You're reaching on this.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Super Saiyan is a 10x boost in every other saga.
Super Saiyan is a consistent boost.

Therefore, Goku had a 10x boost on Namek.

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

Super Saiyan is a 10x boost in every other saga.

Then why didn't Goku just use KK x 20 to power up? It would have made him twice as strong as SS and would have just 1-shot everyone.

Given that SS multipliers have SS2 at only 2x SS, minus Goku's slightly smaller base than Gohan's, this would make Goku's KKx20 as strong as Gohan's SS2. Why didn't he just use that to stomp Cell like we saw Gohan do? Simple, SS is not only 10x in the Cell Game's either.

Super Saiyan is a consistent boost.
Therefore, Goku had a 10x boost on Namek.

Pontification on your part. Also a Red Herring considering SS multipliers was not the original argument.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Pontification on your part. Also a Red Herring considering SS multipliers was not the original argument.

This is irrelevant. If the premises are true, the conclusion is as well. Which premise do you disagree with?

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

This is irrelevant. If the premises are true, the conclusion is as well. Which premise do you disagree with?

The only two we have been talking about for the last 3 pages.......

 

[Goku9001]

How strong is RoF Base Gohan?

 

[FeatsofPower]

So pick a premise and tell me why it's untrue.

 

[Warrior_of_Mite]

So pick a premise and tell me why it's untrue.

I already have for three pages.

I see this is going nowhere but circles.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I already have for three pages.

I see this is going nowhere but circles.

Pick one specific premise and argue exactly why it's false. Stick to one point.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Super Saiyan is a 10x boost in every other saga.
Super Saiyan is a consistent boost.

Therefore, Goku had a 10x boost on Namek.

Those two claims are contradictory.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Those two claims are contradictory.

How so? When does it contradict? It's possible Base Goku got a zenkai before turning Super Saiyan. He was near death and was healed, those are the usual conditions of zenkais are they not?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How so? When does it contradict? It's possible Base Goku got a zenkai before turning Super Saiyan. He was near death and was healed, those are the usual conditions of zenkais are they not?

This isn’t Super yet pal. Toriyama says he imagined a 50x boost and then a 10x one afterwards. Calling it 10x on Namek is not supported anywhere.

 

[FeatsofPower]

This isn’t Super yet pal. Toriyama says he imagined a 50x boost and then a 10x one afterwards. Calling it 10x on Namek is not supported anywhere.

I outlaid premises that could lead to that conclusion.