Roshi (Pre DBS) vs Tambourine

[ahill1]

It doesn't matter whether he did notice it or not, considering later implications show he did receive an increase. Goku didn't notice anything different when he got a good meal after the fight at Muscle Tower, yet we know he did get stronger compared to his 21st Budokai self. Heck, he didn't even notice an imediate increase upon being healed by a Senzu Bean when he was in the hospital after the fight against Vegeta.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

But there's a difference here. After Goku ate the fish, he clearly said he's back on his full power aka the power he used against Tenshinhan.

Goku did got stronger but that's because he was fighting against the RRA in which Vegeta even said the more Saiyans fight, the more they got stronger can perfectly apply to this as well. As for Post Vegeta fight, then he probably didn't since the plot didn't demand it. It's all about the plot really similar to Cell.

 

[ahill1]

Goku also concluded Yajirobe was tougher than Tenshinhan when this latter went uncastched over his beatdown, and we later learned via Yajirobe's reaction that Goku didn't use his full power against him. Care to explain how'd Goku conclude Yajorobe's resilience > Tenshinhan when he himself didn't even attack him with all he had?

Goku also went through many battles at the Budokai in the same day, and in one battle he used most of his strength, left clear by the fact he could barely do a decent KMHMH by the end, only a small one which could delay his fall. Later he was kncoked unconscious by Tambourine and kept in that condition for a whole day. I don't see the RRA's situation being harsher than this that would give Goku an increase at the expense of this situation, specially when there're later implications showing Goku (vs piccolo daimao) > Mutaito.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku also concluded Yajirobe was tougher than Tenshinhan when this latter went uncastched over his beatdown, and we later learned via Yajirobe's reaction that Goku didn't use his full power against him. Care to explain how'd Goku conclude Yajorobe's resilience > Tenshinhan when he himself didn't even attack him with all he had?

Toughness =/= strength,

Goku also went through many battles at the Budokai in the same day, and in one battle he used most of his strength, left clear by the fact he could barely do a decent KMHMH by the end, only a small one which could delay his fall. Later he was kncoked unconscious by Tambourine and kept in that condition for a whole day. I don't see the RRA's situation being harsher than this that would give Goku an increase at the expense of this situation, specially when there're later implications showing Goku (vs piccolo daimao) > Mutaito.

Like I said, if plot demands it then that's it. Krillin clearly stated that Goku got stronger since he fought in 21ST Budokai but nothing suggest from Goku getting stronger after Tambourine knocked him out other than his full power restored back after eating Yajirobe's fish.

 

[ahill1]

Toughness =/= strength,

Never said otherwise. I think you missed my point though.

Like I said, if plot demands it then that's it. Krillin clearly stated that Goku got stronger since he fought in 21ST Budokai but nothing suggest from Goku getting stronger after Tambourine knocked him out other than his full power restored back after eating Yajirobe's fish.

Yes, there're implications of Goku getting stronger after the 22nd Budokai, you just dismissed them with "AT was being inconsistent with that".

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Never said otherwise. I think you missed my point though.

Then what's your point?

Yes, there're implications of Goku getting stronger after the 22nd Budokai, you just dismissed them with "AT was being inconsistent with that".

It's not. Goku didn't get stronger and the inconsistent here is King Piccolo which is Toriyama's fault. Same thing with Freeza as well.

 

[Flame]

Tambourine wins.

 

[ahill1]

Then what's your point?

I repeat. Goku concluded Yajirobe is tougher (and by tougher he means more resilient) than Tenshinhan over him withstanding his beating without injuries, and that Goku wasn't even at full power based on Yajirobe's later reaction to Goku beating Tambourine up. If Goku wasn't at full power, then the power he used against the fat swordsman would be noticeably lower than his power at the 22nd Budokai, and that power wasn't even enough to hurt Tenshinhan THAT MUCH. It makes more sense if what Goku was using against Yajirobe was akin to his 22nd Budokai self (Oh, Yajirobe is tougher than Tenshinhan since he withstood a beating like nothing, whereas THIS SAME POWER was at least able to shake up Tenshinhan a bit), and what he used later against Tambourine and Piccolo Daimao was his "Zenkai" powers.

It's not. Goku didn't get stronger and the inconsistent here is King Piccolo which is Toriyama's fault. Same thing with Freeza as well.

"It's not."... yeah, because I didn't even responded something with "it is"... Again, you're blaming Toriyama as an attempt to dismiss the implications of Goku getting stronger post 22nd Budokai without even attempting to refute the evidences. If your last resort is "It's AT's fault" (which is just a mediocre one, since it could be said against anything that challenges what you like), without EVEN attempting to explain why this should be seen as an inconsistency, then I think you aren't even worthy my time anymore.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I have no idea what you're trying to prove in your first rebuttal.

As for that second passage of yours.

King Piccolo's statement implies that Goku is the strongest he ever fought if that's the case then 22nd Goku should be stronger than Mutaito himself which is not the case according to Roshi. And no, Goku didn't get stronger after he woke up and ate Yajirobe's fish since nothing implies that he did.

It's Toriyama's fault. It's exactly the same thing with Freeza being surprised to see how strong Goku is and how Goku is stronger than Captain Ginyu even though Freeza fought Piccolo and Vegeta who are league above Ginyu yet he was surprised to see someone stronger than Ginyu? Lol

Another inconsistent of Toriyama is how Vegeta can claimed that Goku is number 1 despite the fact that he saw how Gotenks and Gohan fared against Super Boo who Goku doesn't even want to fight. By your logic, Goku probably got stronger against Pure Boo in order for Vegeta to claimed that Goku is number 1.

 

[ahill1]

King Piccolo's statement implies that Goku is the strongest he ever fought if that's the case then 22nd Goku should be stronger than Mutaito himself which is not the case according to Roshi.

That's not the case according to Roshi because this latter only has knowledge about 22nd Budokai Goku... he doesn't know how strong [beating up tambourine] Goku is, which according to Piccolo is > Mutaito.

And no, Goku didn't get stronger after he woke up and ate Yajirobe's fish since nothing implies that he did.

Yes, he did and yes, it does. I already presented the evidences to you and you dismissed it with "hurr, durr, AT's fault...".

It's Toriyama's fault. It's exactly the same thing with Freeza being surprised to see how strong Goku is and how Goku is stronger than Captain Ginyu even though Freeza fought Piccolo and Vegeta who are league above Ginyu yet he was surprised to see someone stronger than Ginyu? Lol

It's not even close to being the same thing. Freeza treating Goku being above Ginyu as a good deal can easily be chalked up to inconsistency, since even pre Zenkai Gohan has powers surpassing him, nevermind his post Zenkai self or Piccolo and Vegeta, the two latters with powers reaching 1 and 2 millions (at the bare minimum) respectively. Goku (vs Piccolo) being above Mutaito can easily be explained by him getting a boost after his fierce battle with Tenshinhan and being knocked out cold by Tambourine for a whole day, unlike the Ginyu situation, which can't be explained in any way possible.

Another inconsistent of Toriyama is how Vegeta can claimed that Goku is number 1 despite the fact that he saw how Gotenks and Gohan fared against Super Boo who Goku doesn't even want to fight. By your logic, Goku probably got stronger against Pure Boo in order for Vegeta to claimed that Goku is number 1.

Again, not remotely comparable. You are searching for apparent contradictions AT has made and trying to apply such for this instance when it could be easily explainable by "Goku got stronger". No, it doesn't work that way. If you want to treat Piccolo's statement as an inconsistency and tap your ears for a pretty logical conclusion of Goku simply getting stronger, then that's your own problem.

Vegeta calling Goku #1 doesn't even have to be an inconsistency. Vegeta was pretty much praising Goku as an individual, praising his own ways ("not killing his opponents, not fighting to win, but to not lose in any way possible, a Saiyan that doesn't fight for his owns selfish motives, but still loves to fight"), so "you're number #1" can easily be looked upon in another way besides being the strongest. We don't even know if Vegeta could sense everyone's chi from the otherworld, or if he saw Gohan and Gotenks fighting Super Boo, so what he said means very little in face of Goku admitting inferiority to Super Boo.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

That's not the case according to Roshi because this latter only has knowledge about 22nd Budokai Goku... he doesn't know how strong [beating up tambourine] Goku is, which according to Piccolo is > Mutaito.

First of all, Roshi clearly stated that Mutaito > 22nd Goku but according to King Piccolo Goku > Mutaito which is inconsistency itself. And you can't just claim that Goku got stronger which nothing implies he did. We all know when someone got stronger, they'll always be a statement from someone but it seems that you're just trying to make your opinion as fact. While I call it as inconsistency on Toriyama's part.

Yes, he did and yes, it does. I already presented the evidences to you and you dismissed it with "hurr, durr, AT's fault...".

No evidence to support that.

It's not even close to being the same thing. Freeza treating Goku being above Ginyu as a good deal can easily be chalked up to inconsistency, since even pre Zenkai Gohan has powers surpassing him, nevermind his post Zenkai self or Piccolo and Vegeta, the two latters with powers reaching 1 and 2 millions (at the bare minimum) respectively.

It's definitely inconsistency from Toriyama's part which can be apply to my earlier claim.

Goku (vs Piccolo) being above Mutaito can easily be explained by him getting a boost after his fierce battle with Tenshinhan and being knocked out cold by Tambourine for a whole day, unlike the Ginyu situation, which can't be explained in any way possible.

We all can explain the story on different way but that doesn't make it as fact. There's no way Goku got stronger since not even Goku can claimed that he got stronger after he recovered. Look, Toriyama is careful on this thing, but he's not perfect. He makes mistakes too. Why do you guys can't just admit that Toriyama fucked this power scalling?

If you really want to use Krillin's statement then the only fights he withnessed Goku getting stronger was during the RRA and Baba's arc since he doesn't know that Goku got stronger from Karin's training as well.

Again, not remotely comparable. You are searching for apparent contradictions AT has made and trying to apply such for this instance when it could be easily explainable by "Goku got stronger". No, it doesn't work that way. If you want to treat Piccolo's statement as an inconsistency and tap your ears for a pretty logical conclusion of Goku simply getting stronger, then that's your own problem.

To each his own, your opinion or theory are just theory. Admit it, they're inconsistency and move on. You really expect Toriyama to be perfect? smh...

Vegeta calling Goku #1 doesn't even have to be an inconsistency. Vegeta was pretty much praising Goku as an individual, praising his own ways ("not killing his opponents, not fighting to win, but to not lose in any way possible, a Saiyan that doesn't fight for his owns selfish motives, but still loves to fight"), so "you're number #1" can easily be looked upon in another way besides being the strongest. We don't even know if Vegeta could sense everyone's chi from the otherworld, or if he saw Gohan and Gotenks fighting Super Boo, so what he said means very little in face of Goku admitting inferiority to Super Boo.

Vegeta said ''none'' can fight Pure Boo other than Goku, does that make sense? Can't Gohan and Gotenks fight Boo? Of course they can but how come Vegeta didn't know that? After all, once Goku and Vegeta cut Boo's absorption, Boo's power fell a lot which came from Gohan and the kids so why can't Vegeta know that Gohan made Boo that powerful?

In Vegeta's eyes, Gohan and Gotenks > Super Boo > Super Boo, yet he later claimed that Goku is no.1? How can that even makes sense? Maybe Goku got stronger here as well just like how you can claim that Goku got stronger after he ate that fish and surpassed Mutaito.

 

[ahill1]

First of all, Roshi clearly stated that Mutaito > 22nd Goku but according to King Piccolo Goku > Mutaito which is inconsistency itself.

Nope, it means Goku got stronger. You are the one treating it like an inconsistency.

And you can't just claim that Goku got stronger which nothing implies he did.

You just presented what implies he did... Roshi stated Mutaito > 22nd Budokai Goku and old Piccolo Daimao stated Goku post 22nd Budokai > Mutaito. That is, in order for it to make sense, Goku got stronger after Tenshinhan's fight and Tambourine's beatdown. No need to treat it as inconsistency.

We all know when someone got stronger, they'll always be a statement from someone but it seems that you're just trying to make your opinion as fact. While I call it as inconsistency on Toriyama's part.

There's not a need to there be a clear cut statement of someone getting stronger when we can put the evidences together and reach a fine conclusion that said character did get stronger. Not everything needs to be stated in a clear cut manner for it to be true.

While I call it as inconsistency on Toriyama's part.

Yeah, you call it an inconsistency because you won't want to accept Goku getting stronger. You are the one who wants to treat it as such, when it doesn't need to be one.

No evidence to support that.

Yes, there're. You just dismissed them with "AT was inconsistent".

It's definitely inconsistency from Toriyama's part which can be apply to my earlier claim.

Yeah, Freeza treating Goku as being stronger than Ginyu is definitely an inconsistency. Now, you are saying that since AT was inconsistent in the Freeza saga with a mere line of Goku being stronger than Ginyu he also HAS to be inconsistent in the Piccolo Daimao saga with the implications of post 22nd Budokai Goku > Mutaito? Pathetic.

Might as well argue AT was inconsistent in all instances where I don't like a character being that strong... not!

We all can explain the story on different way but that doesn't make it as fact. There's no way Goku got stronger since not even Goku can claimed that he got stronger after he recovered. Look, Toriyama is careful on this thing, but he's not perfect. He makes mistakes too. Why do you guys can't just admit that Toriyama fucked this power scalling?

Except it doesn't have to be a fucked up thing by AT's part... we can easily conclude Goku got stronger and everything makes perfect sense. Look, I put up that Yajirobe's argument, which you just didn't understand, and then I put up this "Goku post 22nd Budokai > Mutaito > Goku 22nd Budokai" argument, which you just dismissed with "AT fucked up"... then I do ask, do you really think you are countering my arguments with evidences or just denying them (or, rather, dismissing them) in order to not admit you might have been wrong when saying Goku didn't get stronger? Yeah, I thought so.

If you really want to use Krillin's statement then the only fights he withnessed Goku getting stronger was during the RRA and Baba's arc since he doesn't know that Goku got stronger from Karin's training as well.

Did I ever refer to Kuririn's statement in the Freeza saga? Not that I remember. And even if I did, Kuririn's statement can easily work since Goku got stronger post 21st Budokai after a fierce battle with Kame-Sen'nin and fierce battles on the Muscle Tower... then it's pretty much implied to us he got stronger after the 22nd Budokai. AT obviously didn't think of Goku being a Saiyan back then, but it doesn't change the fact that he was (retroactively speaking), since the "Goku being a Saiyan" was introducced by nobody less than the creator of the story... so Goku IS a Saiyan at DB and DOES HAVE the ability of getting stronger through fierce battles, even if him being a Saiyan wasn't really thought up by that time. The "gaining power through fierce battles" were arguably thought up by AT since Goku got stronger after the 21st Budokai, and also got stronger after the 22nd Budokai even before drinking the God water. Even thougn the 2nd one is based more on implications and not on set on stone statement, it doesn't make it any less true when we do have deductive logic and can lump those statement together to reach a fine conclusion.

To each his own, your opinion or theory are just theory. Admit it, they're inconsistency and move on. You really expect Toriyama to be perfect? smh...

What does "expecting Toriyama to be perfect" has to do with not treating an obvious implication of Goku getting stronger post 22nd Budokai as an inconsistency? Now we have to treat an obvious implication that Goku did get stronger as an inconsistency when it can be explained by, well... Goku getting stronger just because AT has shown to be inconsistent before? Touché!

Vegeta said ''none'' can fight Pure Boo other than Goku, does that make sense? Can't Gohan and Gotenks fight Boo? Of course they can but how come Vegeta didn't know that? After all, once Goku and Vegeta cut Boo's absorption, Boo's power fell a lot which came from Gohan and the kids so why can't Vegeta know that Gohan made Boo that powerful?

Yeah, because Goku and Vegeta were the only one alive at that time while eveyone else was dead. So the only one between Goku and Vegeta who is able to fight Kid Boo being Goku is an obvious conclusion

And now that, which can obviously be explainable in other way (rather than Goku's somehow blatant admittance of inferiority towards Super Boo) is somehow comparable to the situation where Roshi implied Mutaito > Goku, and Piccolo Daimao implied Goku > Mutaito, which can also be easily explainable by Goku getting stronger through fierce battles, rather than dismissing the whole implication as a lazy (to say the least) "AT is inconsistent, he isn't perfect, smh"... yeah, really ridiculous.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

Can go either way tbh.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Come on now, from what I've seen in your post. All you claimed is that it "could explain that Goku got stronger in order for chain to work" but I've got a news for you, Goku didn't get stronger even Goku himself can tell the difference of his power but he can't since he didn't get stronger, you got that?

If you will just assume that Goku got stronger then I guess Ginyu was stronger than Piccolo and Vegeta all along and only Goku managed to surpassed Ginyu then just like according to Freeza? Sorry, that doesn't work that way.