Some kewl counters to Gotenks arguments

[kriss-]

He told them to train as much as possible and he didn't retract his statement so it's true until contradicted. Gotenks was most definitely considered a work in progress, even after becoming a Super Saiyan.

Piccolo can call his Ki incredible but that's not the same as saying he's as strong as Innocent Boo.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Which was well before he saw Super Saiyan Gotenks. He told them to train as much as possible when he was still under the impression that they weren't on Boo's level. Super Saiyan Gotenks hadn't appeared yet, so he can't have an opinion on something he never saw.

The point was to fight Boo a day later. His power isn't that incredible if it pales in comparison to the guy he has to fight.

 

[kriss-]

Piccolo knows how strong Super Saiyans are. Piccolo never confirms that Gotenks is as powerful as you're making him out to be, so you'll never be able to prove your theory at the end of the day.

 

[kriss-]

Well I'm done with this thread.

I was just having fun poking out the faults in these Gotenks arguments.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Knowing how strong Super Saiyans isn't the same as knowing how strong a merged Super Saiyan is. Big difference.

Don't need to. Goku said Fusion>Boo and Piccolo never denies this fact when Gotenks becomes a Super Saiyan. I'm good.

 

[kriss-]

When Super Saiyan multipliers change, let me know. When Piccolo states that it was true all along, let me know.

Smiles~

 

[Evil Vegeta]

What does that have to do with anything? Piccolo isn't a walking calculator, nor has he ever been implied to be. Fact is, the only Gotenks stated to be weaker than Boo is Base Gotenks. It's never mentioned for Super Saiyan Gotenks.

The story never mentions anything about multipliers, so how this relevant?

Smiles~

 

[kriss-]

When Piccolo states that Gotenks surpassed Innocent Boo, please inform me and I will undoubtedly change my chance.

Smiles~

 

[kriss-]

OH THIS IS FUNNY. FOR SOME REASON PICCOLO ISN'T A WALKING CALCULATOR BUT GOKU IS WHEN HE MAKES A DETERMINATION ABOUT FUSION!

LOL the hypocrisy.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The kids were sleeping on the lookout well after their Super Saiyan ran out. There was no urgency for them to train to match or surpass Boo because it wasn't necessary.

Goku has a better understanding of Fusion and Super Saiyan than Piccolo ever will. Simply saying Piccolo knows how strong a Super Saiyan is really isn't an indication of anything. If he was already aware of how strong he'd be, "Yeah, your Chi really is incredible" wouldn't have been stated because it would've been expected.

 

[kriss-]

There was no urgency for them to enter the Rosat after Super Boo powered up and Piccolo shit himself, only when Boo could sense Chi. Why? There is no reason other then the kids continuing to train to master the Metamoran dance. The better they are at it, the better the results. They had no need to physically train on their own. The dance doesn't work that way. Hence why the kids only achieved SSj3 6 hours before Piccolo enters the room, they spent most of their time mastering the dance as opposed to making solid gains individually. There is a huge difference between how Piccolo reacts to how they perform fusion before and after the Rosat.

Akira Toriyama even states that any number of people can fuse, regardless of size if they perfect fusion perfectly. The implication is that the better the fusees perform the dance, the better the results.

Being incredible doesn't mean Gotenks surpassed Innocent Boo, stop making things up. You're more then welcome to your own opinion, but I've got my own ideas that you are continually failing to discredit. Please respect mine.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

There was no urgency for them to enter the Rosat after Super Boo powered up and Piccolo shit himself, only when Boo could sense Chi. Why?

Piccolo was still watching Boo the entire time while the kids were sleep. When Krillin asked him about Gotenks' chances against the new Boo, Piccolo wasn't too confident. This strong implies he would've sent the kids in the rosat once they woke up. This is strongly implied when he later tells Krillin Fusion didn't have a chance against the new Boo.

There is no reason other then the kids continuing to train to master the Metamoran dance. The better they are at it, the better the results.

They already had Fusion down. For power gains, they need to train as a whole. Not fucking up the Fusion is all they needed to avoid doing. Their pose was exactly on point, so not an issue.

They had no need to physically train on their own.

Is that why we see Goten immediately start training on his own once they enter the rosat, with Trunks rushing to join him "so he won't get ahead of him"? That shows that there was without a doubt physical training taking place with nothing saying otherwise.

The dance doesn't work that way.

They had the dance down. That wasn't the issue. The issue was their lack of power in the Fusion.

Hence why the kids only achieved SSj3 6 hours before Piccolo enters the room, they spent most of their time mastering the dance as opposed to making solid gains individually.

No. The training started with them training separately. At some point, they merged and discovered a level beyond Super Saiyan. There's nothing in the story that says they've spent that time mastering the dance. Goten is shown training alone before Trunks joins him, giving the idea of training individually merit.

There is a huge difference between how Piccolo reacts to how they perform fusion before and after the Rosat.

Because they've gotten a lot stronger. The only thing Piccolo wonders about when they're doing the dance is why they're not beginning as Super Saiyans.

Akira Toriyama even states that any number of people can fuse, regardless of size if they perfect fusion perfectly. The implication is that the better the fusees perform the dance, the better the results.

Being incredible doesn't mean Gotenks surpassed Innocent Boo, stop making things up.

Being incredible without saying what he said (Not on Boo's level) to the last successful Fusion indicates that Super Saiyan Gotenks is capable of fighting Boo. Nothing more, nothing less. You say there's no evidence that Gotenks is on Boo's level, yet there's none that he isn't.

You're more then welcome to your own opinion, but I've got my own ideas that you are continually failing to discredit. Please respect mine.

Most of your ideas aren't remotely implied in the story.

 

[kriss-]

Nothing implies he was going to send them into the Rosat time at all, ever. Not until Super Boo arrives on the look-out because time was no longer a factor.

Further-more, Akira Toriyama clearly says during an interview that if fusion is perfected, any amount of people can fuse. Piccolo's reaction towards the new and improved Gotenks heavily implies that he perfected fusion after a week or so of training.

Nothing implies the kids powered up individually, ever. Nothing implies fusion scales linearly, ever.

There is nothing that suggests Gotenks SSj is on Boo's level, ever.

You also failed to counter what Akira Toriyama stated, so that argument still stands. (It's impossible for you to counter it because it's a word from god).

Everything points towards perfecting fusion for better results, not training individually.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Then I guess Super Boo's power changed from Earth to the lookout. Piccolo says Fusion was no match for the new Boo. That means Piccolo was either going to send them on a suicidal mission or send them into the rosat. The kids were sleeping, so you can't say what he was or wasn't going to do. It's very clear that Piccolo places importance on sleeping.

Piccolo: "Good!! It went perfectly!!"

What is that supposed to mean other than they didn't fuck up the pose? Piccolo didn't say they improved the Fusion or anything close to it. If you get the Fusion slightly wrong, the merged warrior comes out looking like shit. You're over-complicating something very simple for no reason.

Was Goten shown training alone as soon as they entered the rosat? Did Trunks tell Goten he was going to join him so he wouldn't surpass him? If the answer is yes to both questions, then it means they trained individually at some point whether you think they did or not.

Was it said by either of the kids that they spent all of their time mastering the dance? If the answer is no, then I guess we can assume this wasn't the case.

Piccolo only needing to see his speed suggests it, Piccolo only being worried that the kids are short on Fusion time when they go to fight Boo suggest it. Meanwhile, there's nothing that suggests Gotenks isn't a match for Fat Boo.

I don't need to counter what AT said when it doesn't even help you. What's shown is the kids training alone when they entered the rosat. What's later shown are the kids winded after reverting out of Fusion. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[kriss-]

Your perspective requires too much reaching. The kids powering up individually is a reach, it's never stated. Piccolo knowing that Gotenks SSj Pre is stronger then Innocent Boo is a reach, it's never stated. The effective of the dance resulting in gains not being what Akira Toriyama had in mind contradicts his interview, therefore arguing the opposite is a reach. Piccolo sending in the kids regardless is a reach, it's never stated.

This is why the faulty crap that is Gotenks logic is sheer bullshit and doesn't work. I prefer my own explanation and ideals. They fit with the story and make much more sense and does not require all the reaching.

In short I'm arguing:

Piccolo makes no comment on the kids individually, he doesn't notice a difference in power. And because they have to be at the same power to form successfully, means that he didn't notice any difference regardless. Therefore fusion does not scale linearly. Piccolo then ascertains that the kids performed it perfectly, far better then beforehand; this results in a greater fusion and increased strength for Gotenks.

Whereas your argument suggests:

The kids clearly powered up individually, but we have no statement to suggest that it's true. Despite the kids being at the same battle power before performing fusion, Piccolo fails to tell us that this battle power is greatly different from what it was beforehand, but who cares. Gotenks arrives and he's much stronger then before, because fusion scales linearly. Albeit, the boys didn't surpass their previous SSj form in Base.

Nonesense.

In short, I'm arguing:

Super Boo showed up and Piccolo didn't immediately send them into the Rosat because they still had a full day left to perfect fusion.

Whereas your argument suggests:

Piccolo was going to send them in regardless. This is what I think even though nothing supports it. It's not stated but who cares.

Nonsense.

So no, I won't buy your bullcrap. It's too faulty, has plot holes and requires all the reaching. If your ideas were more consistent with the story I would give them more thought, but as of now, they aren't. You're welcome to have the last word, but that won't take away from all the loop-holes your train of thought creates.

 

[kriss-]

I'm just ranting here for the sake of ranting:

Goku is not a genius he can't do mathematics. It's impossible for him to determine, with accuracy, that two specific power levels would result in such and such strength. All he says is that two weak guys turned into someone substantial, that's it. He later builds on his expectation about Gotenks during his battle with Pure Boo and states that he wanted the younger generation to find a way to win one way or another. If he was so confident in what the fusion would result as, it contradicts his later statement of them finding a way to win 'one way or another'; which implies that strength isn't the only relevant factor, and it wasn't all along. During his discussion with Piccolo -after sensing the full power of Goten and Trunks, he changes his perfective about them performing fusion properly to performing it perfectly and applies the word gamble, in a conversation that takes place an entire issue after Goku stated that time would be considered a gamble -so it's obviously a reference to something wholly different then time. It's no wonder Akira Toriyama doesn't explicitly tell us AFTER Gotenks SSj finally arrives that he definitely surpassed Innocent Boo.

People need to reevaluate their analysis regarding Gotenks.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Your perspective requires too much reaching. The kids powering up individually is a reach, it's never stated. Piccolo knowing that Gotenks SSj Pre is stronger then Innocent Boo is a reach, it's never stated. The effective of the dance resulting in gains not being what Akira Toriyama had in mind contradicts his interview, therefore arguing the opposite is a reach. Piccolo sending in the kids regardless is a reach, it's never stated.

You say that like he hasn't went back on things clearly presented differently in his original story. In the actual manga, Piccolo said any gain from the kids will make Gotenks a lot stronger. What you're basically saying is AT wrote that line just to fool his readers. The kids were sleep, and Piccolo wanted Boo to let them sleep. When Boo forced his hand, he rushed them into the rosat. That's not the say he was never going to send them in at all. Also, you're basically saying Piccolo was fine with allowing their last hope in the world to fight Boo with no hopes of winning. GG.

This is why the faulty crap that is Gotenks logic is sheer bullshit and doesn't work. I prefer my own explanation and ideals. They fit with the story and make much more sense and does not require all the reaching.

You're reaching just as much as us Gotenks enthusiasts, though.

Piccolo makes no comment on the kids individually, he doesn't notice a difference in power. And because they have to be at the same power to form successfully, means that he didn't notice any difference regardless. Therefore fusion does not scale linearly. Piccolo then ascertains that the kids performed it perfectly, far better then beforehand; this results in a greater fusion and increased strength for Gotenks.

Because the power of the Base kids individually wouldn't be shit worth commenting on. Piccolo was obviously not that hopeful going in ("Please give me a miracle"), which explains why he got so excited at sensing the new power of Base Gotenks. If Goten and Trunks got a bit stronger individually in the rosat, the Fusion is already more powerful than before. The kids most likely trained in the Fusion as well before reaching Super Saiyan 3, so there's lots of different ways of looking at it. One thing that doesn't make much sense is the idea of perfectly Fusion granting greater power. Fusion is treated as a very black and white power-up in the story. You either fuck it up or you successfully merge. Base Gotenks and Super Saiyan Gotenks are examples of Fusion being a success; Fat and Thin Gotenks are the rejects.

The kids clearly powered up individually, but we have no statement to suggest that it's true. Despite the kids being at the same battle power before performing fusion, Piccolo fails to tell us that this battle power is greatly different from what it was beforehand, but who cares. Gotenks arrives and he's much stronger then before, because fusion scales linearly. Albeit, the boys didn't surpass their previous SSj form in Base.

Like I said, Piccolo is going in hoping that Fusion will be strong enough to handle Boo. The Base form of the kids pale in comparison to anything relevant, so there's no reason to comment on it. Whatever they gained wouldn't be noticeable enough individually, but that changes with Fusion. I don't see why you're calling something directly mentioned (small gains=better Fusion) in the story as nonsense.

Super Boo showed up and Piccolo didn't immediately send them into the Rosat because they still had a full day left to perfect fusion.

Piccolo was going to send them in regardless. This is what I think even though nothing supports it. It's not stated but who cares.

Piccolo was going to send them on a suicide mission instead. You think that makes more sense, so go with that.

So no, I won't buy your bullcrap. It's too faulty, has plot holes and requires all the reaching. If your ideas were more consistent with the story I would give them more thought, but as of now, they aren't. You're welcome to have the last word, but that won't take away from all the loop-holes your train of thought creates.

Learning to dance while remaining the same isn't reaching....

 

[kriss-]

Akira Toriyama's interview about perfecting fusion allows people of different stature and a greater amount of people to fuse implies that perfecting fusion has greater results; what type of results? Within the context of the Manga, strength. Because Goten and Trunks are not implied to get any stronger at all, despite Piccolo sensing their battle powers before fusing, which HAVE to be of equal strength. However, the comparison between their equal strength after entering the Rosat in comparison to beforehand is so insignificant that it's not worth mention, so the logical consensus is that they didn't increase much. Simultaneously, this means that perfecting fusion yields greater results. This is implied within the Manga when the kids perform it properly and Piccolo's initial reaction is about how much better their dance is now in comparison to beforehand, and not their strength. So, when Super Boo first arrives on the look-out, they still have a full day to perfect fusion for greater results, they don't need to train and improve individually to get stronger. The initial consideration also implies that Piccolo isn't aware of perfecting fusion to get stronger, but he still believes that with 1 day of training, they can manage something against Super Boo. It isn't until the day isn't a factor that Piccolo has to react. But after the Rosat, the boys powered up without getting stronger individually. The better the dance, the better the results is hereby confirmed. There was much the boys discovered that Piccolo wasn't aware of and things that even Goku wasn't aware of (Toriyama Interview).

 

[kriss-]

Piccolo said that any increases for Goten and Trunks will result in better increases for Gotenks, so he would obviously expect them to get stronger in the Rosat, because that's all he knows. But he doesn't notice a change in battle power, the only thing worth mentioning is that they perfected fusion.

But you choose to ignore that. Another reach.

I'm done wasting my time in this silly debate.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Like I said, Fusion is a very black and white concept. You get it right or you don't. The kids got it right and successful merged into Base Gotenks. What you're talking about has nothing to do with additional power. Piccolo wouldn't comment on their Bases because their Bases are quite weaker compared to what he's expecting to see in Fusion.

Anyway, we see Goten training alone, so the idea of them training separately is shown. Trunks think their Base improved enough to equal Boo, so it's also clear they trained while being merged. The idea of them gaining some hidden power through doing the Fusion exactly how they did it the 2 other times it ended up being successful is silly. You can't talk about reaching when that's exactly what your stances hinges on. Seriously.