SSB Vegetto (ToP) vs Jiren

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

You know that Base Kefla is SSJG-tier, right ? Her LSSSJ = Genkidama and her LSSJ2 is UI-tier.

Vegetto would be far higher than that with thw same multipliers

Except he isn't since he was at most comparable to LOJ merged zamasu whom is stated to be weaker than suppressed jiren in an even stronger form that Vegito couldn't damage. UI Goku was comparable to that jiren and ssj2 Kefla was superior to that level of power. So ssj2 Kefla is stronger than Ssb Vegito. How they compare in their base states is irrelevant.

Which means, again, that the multipliers weren't the same as in FT arc.

SSJG Goku > LSSJ Kale and SSJ2 Caulifla.

SSJB Goku and Vegeta are ridiculously stronger.

So with the same multipliers, Vegetto stomps.

Except you can't prove that the multipliers changed from the future trunks arc, so it's moot. Not sure why that idea even came up, but it has zero grounds in the story. Ssjg Goku being stronger than kale is irrelevant.

 

[Keedounan]

Except you can't prove that the multipliers changed from the future trunks arc, so it's moot.

SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta > LSSJ Kale and SSJ Caulifla

LSSJ Kefla > SSJB Vegetto.

You're right, I can't prove it

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Unless you can prove that base kale is equal to base goku and vegeta, you can't.

 

[Keedounan]

Unless you can prove that base kale is equal to base goku and vegeta, you can't.

So it doesn't matter that the strongest form of the two fusees is weaker than their second strongest form, it doesn't matter that LSSJ Kefla > SSJB Vegetto, if I can't prove that Base Kale = Base Goku or Vegeta, the multiplier is the same...

I know that your arguments make zero sense, but come on, try to make sense, at least once.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

You claimed that the multipliers changed because Ssb Goku and vegeta are stronger than kale, yet Kefla was stronger than Vegito. That in itself isn't evidence of anything, so this is a problem with your own comprehension, not mine.

Kefla>Vegito>Ssb Goku>ssjg Goku>kale. That's what's shown.

 

[Keedounan]

You claimed that the multipliers changed because Ssb Goku and vegeta are stronger than kale, yet Kefla was stronger than Vegito. That in itself isn't evidence of anything, so this is a problem with your own comprehension, not mine.

Kefla>Vegito>Ssb Goku>ssjg Goku>kale. That's what's shown.

And that's stupid. Take 3 and 4. Put them in the same multiplier. Which one is greater ?

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Your argument isn't even making sense. Obviously 4 is greater when multiplied by any positive number but you're assuming 3 and 4 are being multiplied by the same number for no reason.

And I don't even think that lssj Kefla is stronger than Vegito, only lssj2 Kefla is confirmed to be. But your argument isn't coherent, thus unconvincing. And you have to assume variables like kale base strength, so there's no way for you to prove that ssb's multiplier is greater than lssj's. In no way does anything that you said even slightly hint at the Ssb multiplier changing between the FT and TOP arc.

 

[Keedounan]

Your argument isn't even making sense. Obviously 4 is greater when multiplied by any positive number but you're assuming 3 and 4 are being multiplied by the same number for no reason.

Because it's exactly the same case.

But your argument isn't coherent, thus unconvincing.

Like yours was convincing in the first place

And you have to assume variables like kale base strength, so there's no way for you to prove that ssb's multiplier is greater than lssj's.

Whether or not you put Base Kale's power at a weak level, or a strong level, her LSSJ form still should have the same result (let's say 1000 for example), which is weaker than SSJG. So Base Kale either is strong, but her LSSJ has a weak multiplier (like 500 x 2), or her base form is weak, and her LSSJ has a strong multiplier (like 1 x 1000).

In no way does anything that you said even slightly hint at the Ssb multiplier changing between the FT and TOP arc.

Good, because I was talking about Potara multiplier.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

If you're talking about the potara, then you don't have an argument. There is no stated "potara multiplier" and it isn't stated that everyone gets the same boost. Again, this is entirely your problem, not the story's problem and it's not a problem from the power chain I posted earlier that the show has showed.

And even if Kefla and Vegito had the same "multiplier", it wouldn't mean anything because again you have to assume to substantiate your stance.

Just an example
Potara=a+b(10)

Base Kale: 1
Base Caulifla: 100

Lssj kale: 1,000

Base Goku: 100
Base Vegeta: 100

Ssb Goku: 10,000
Ssb vegeta: 10,000

Base Kefla: 1,010
Lssj Kefla: 1,010,000

Base Vegito: 2,000
Ssb Vegito: 200,000

So you haven't proved anything. Not that I think that lssj Kefla>Vegito but your argument makes zero sense. That seems to be the norm.

Lssj2 Kefla>Ssb Vegito. Period.

 

[Keedounan]

If you're talking about the potara, then you don't have an argument. There is no stated "potara multiplier"

and it isn't stated that everyone gets the same boost

And they'd get different boost because ?

And even if Kefla and Vegito had the same "multiplier", it wouldn't mean anything because again you have to assume to substantiate your stance.

Episode: 53
Time: 16:33-16:51
Context: Goku transform into Super Saiyan 2 against Zamasu
Gowasu: "Oh, my! He's mutated!"
Whis: "It's called "Super Saiyan"."
Zamasu: "Super Saiyan? His ki's increased several-fold... no, several tenfold!"

We already have some base.

So you haven't proved anything. Not that I think that lssj Kefla>Vegito but your argument makes zero sense. That seems to be the norm.

That's rich coming from someone who think that the BoG scale still applies....

Besides, from where does it boost ? From their base form ? From their ultimate form ? Or from the form they were in right before fusing ?

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Vados didn't state that everyone gets the same exact boost from the potara. There lies your assumption. Kibitokai doesn't even end up stronger than vegeta despite shin being far stronger than the base saiyans yet base Vegito ends up stronger than ssj3 Goku.

And I already showed you why that doesn't matter even if it were true.

Spoiler

Potara=a+b(10)

Base Kale: 1
Base Caulifla: 100

Lssj kale: 1,000

Base Goku: 100
Base Vegeta: 100

Ssb Goku: 10,000
Ssb vegeta: 10,000

Base Kefla: 1,010
Lssj Kefla: 1,010,000

Base Vegito: 2,000
Ssb Vegito: 200,000

So there is no discussion to be had here. I honestly don't know why it's so hard to just follow the story instead of making assumptions like you're doing right now. Lssj2 Kefla>Ssb Vegito. It's that simple. There's no reason to assume a "retcon" or whatever because it doesn't fit your personal set of beliefs.

 

[Keedounan]

Vados didn't state that everyone gets the same exact boost from the potara.

So you just assume it isn't a general rule ?

Kibitokai doesn't even end up stronger than vegeta despite being far stronger than the base saiyans yet base Vegito ends up stronger than ssj3 Goku.

Because Goku and Vegeta are just that much stronger. Already explained by Old Kai.

And I already showed you why that doesn't matter even if it were true.

Spoiler

Potara=a+b(10)

Base Kale: 1
Base Caulifla: 100

Lssj kale: 1,000

Base Goku: 100
Base Vegeta: 100

Ssb Goku: 10,000
Ssb vegeta: 10,000

Base Kefla: 1,010
Lssj Kefla: 1,010,000

Base Vegito: 2,000
Ssb Vegito: 200,000

So there is no discussion to be had here. I honestly don't know why it's so hard to just follow the story instead of making assumptions like you're doing right now. Lssj2 Kefla>Ssb Vegito. It's that simple. There's no reason to assume a "retcon" or whatever because it doesn't fit your personal set off beliefs.

And yet things like retcons, inconsistencies, asspulls and others kind of bad writings aren't things that is rare in the franchise. Humans go from aware of concepts like Ki, with the likes of Panputt and the others, to worshipping Mister Satan and buying his blatant lies in less than one decade. What about Freeza believing he is the strongest in the universe, yet he was aware of beings like Majin Boo and Beerus ? What about the guy who sealed Old Kai, stated to be weaker than Majin Boo, who turns out to be Beerus, a guy much, much stronger than any form of Boo ? Or Kid Boo being the result of Good Boo ripped out of Super Boo despite the fact that Evil Boo absorbing Good Boo = Super Boo, and so on.

 

[Keedounan]

Base Kefla = SSJG-tier+
LSSJ = Genkidama-tier (above SSJBKKx20).

Over x20 boost for from base form to LSSJ. 25x at least.

Base Kale = SSJ-tier would be the highest level possible with the lowest multiplier possible (25x).

LSSJ = SSJ3-tier, perhaps more, considering her performance against SSJG Goku.

Happy now ? I've estimated Base Kale's highest power possible.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

What about the guy who sealed Old Kai, stated to be weaker than Majin Boo, who turns out to be Beerus, a guy much, much stronger than any form of Boo ?

To be fair on this part, Elder Kaioshin never specifically said the one who sealed him was stronger, only that he wasn't as "bad" as Boo. It's most likely he was talking about their character and that it's easier to reason with Beerus than it would with Fat Boo.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I'm not assuming that the potara boost isn't static. That isn't stated yet you claimed this to be the case. What's shown is lssj2 Kefla>Vegito.

And the base saiyans aren't stronger than shin, yet vegeta>Kibitokai and base Vegito>ssj3 Goku. Don't even know why you're bringing up old kai when he has nothing to do with anything being discussed here. There's an obvious numerical disparity despite both parties being boosted "tens of times". If shin>>>Frieza>base saiyans yet vegeta>Kibitokai and base Vegito>ssj3 Goku, then base Vegito is getting a boost massively bigger than Kibitokai.

I'm not interested in what you think was retconned. Only what's shown in the story matters. There was no "retconned potara boost" because a static potara boost was never established, so assuming that to be the case is an assumption.

Again we're back to where we started. Lssj2 Kefla>Suppressed jiren=initial UI Goku>power stressed merged zamasu>Ssb Vegito.

 

[SIAD]

Then Kefla use LSSJ and LSSJ2?

 

[SIAD]

Given Kefla's strength, it seems like the only logical conclusion. Either that, or Vegeta's new strength somehow makes that much of a difference.

I got to thinking that maybe because of Goku from the End of the Zamasu Arc to the Mini Arc Hit, Goku was training to face him. It does not necessarily increase its Peak power, but surely increase its power in its lower forms. Therefore Goku Base (ToP) is 10x stronger than in the End of the Zamasu Arc, while Vegeta Base (ToP) is more than 20x stronger than in that Arc. Thus:

Vegeta Base (ToP) >>> Goku Base (ToP)> Caulifla Base (ToP)> Kale Base (ToP) >>>>>>>> Goku Base (Final Arc Zamasu) >> Vegeta Base (Final Arc Zamasu).

Vegetto Base (ToP) >>>>> Kefla Base (ToP) >>>>> Vegetto Base (Arco Zamasu).