Ssj Vegeta/Goku > Ssj2 Gohan/Dabura

[Kyo]

But SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta filled the meter really fast. It would take almost all of SSJ Goku’s energy if he’s that strong. What’s wrong with that?

And this Kili Meter stuff is just speculation anyway since SSJ Goku’s power never got drained. If we stick to the facts, Vegeta is calling SSJ2 Gohan trash without spoiling to Goku that he has SSJ2 himself.

Damage fills it up. If Vegeta wrecked SSJ2 Gohan in 2 seconds (think Android 17 vs Trunks), he'd fill it up just as fast. This could, conceivably, also happen to a SSJ Goku that's stronger than SSJ2 Gohan.

Vegeta is (probably) talking about when they're in the same form when he says "Our powers are higher than his now." The Babidi spaceship stuff is weird because he acts like Gohan's hopeless against Dabura when he could, on paper, just turn SSJ2.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Damage fills it up. If Vegeta wrecked SSJ2 Gohan in 2 seconds (think Android 17 vs Trunks), he'd fill it up just as fast. This could, conceivably, also happen to a SSJ Goku that's stronger than SSJ2 Gohan.

Vegeta is (probably) talking about when they're in the same form when he says "Our powers are higher than his now." The Babidi spaceship stuff is weird because he acts like Gohan's hopeless against Dabura when he could, on paper, just turn SSJ2.

Yeah whatever. I’m going to agree because SSJ Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta sounds dumb. Goku probably knew Vegeta had SSJ2 and was surprised because of drama. Gohan was already using SSJ2 against Dabra.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Headcanon. The only time it ever seemed larger was in the Cell Games, when Gohan also tapped into anger to use his power.

So a Super Saiyan can kill a Super Saiyan 2 with a blast? Also, didn't Super confirm that Super Saiyan 2 was much larger than two times as well? Zamasu?

I don't see why Super Saiyan 2 wouldn't be quite large, Super Saiyan 3 seems to likely be around the same size as the Super Saiyan boost itself, so I don't know.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Vegeta is (probably) talking about when they're in the same form when he says "Our powers are higher than his now." The Babidi spaceship stuff is weird because he acts like Gohan's hopeless against Dabura when he could, on paper, just turn SSJ2.

Yeah, after my last research into the topic, it's best to conclude that everyone assumes Gohan's full power is his Super Saiyan power. How to explain the Budokai would probably have to go that Gohan got mad enough to transform, but no one expects Gohan to have that as his regular capable form.

Goku should really be telling Gohan to transform like he did at the Budokai, which would be much easier than releasing all of his rage.

It's just poorly written. AT's usual style is all about one-upmanship, greatly escalating things, powers, transformations, immediately and making yesterday's big thing, today's trash.

He attempts to do this by making Super Saiyan 2 the norm, but backtracks on Badibi's ship and wants to make Super Saiyan the norm again, to make Super Saiyan 2 feel more impactful.

He boxed himself into a corner and tries to pretend it never happened, meanwhile, the Super Saiyan 2 at the Budokai cannot be retconned as the power is necessary to ressurect Buu.

What he needs is some way to explain this and a changing of some of the terminology.

Goku and Gohan shouldn't be addressing what a fully enraged Gohan's power would look like, they should be talking about Super Saiyan 2 in general. But Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 seems to be directly attached to his rage post Budokai in GT and Super as well. It's more like Gohan has a "special" Super Saiyan 2 that taps into his dormant power.

This also fails miserably as well. This is even more egregious than the Piccolo issue which clearly showed him to be somewhat of a rival to the Super Saiyans at the Cell Game.

It's tough because the Buu Saga clearly needs to be rewritten for powerscaling purposes, but it'd be very hard to do so.

Also, he seemed to have changed his mind about how strong the boys were, on one hand, they were rivaling the adults, then later, can be easily one shot without worry.

I think he needed a lot more time, and less stress to figure out how to go about this saga properly, but he saw the end goal and just made it out of there as fast as he could. We still got some major classics out of it, Majin Vegeta, Ssj3 Goku, Fusion and so on were really cool concepts.

 

[SIAD]

Does anyone have a translation of what Goku and Vegeta say about Gohan when he faces Dabura?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So a Super Saiyan can kill a Super Saiyan 2 with a blast? Also, didn't Super confirm that Super Saiyan 2 was much larger than two times as well? Zamasu?

I don't see why Super Saiyan 2 wouldn't be quite large, Super Saiyan 3 seems to likely be around the same size as the Super Saiyan boost itself, so I don't know.

Not any more than Goku could ever hope to kill Vegeta without Kaio-Ken in the Saiyan Saga. DBS goes the other way around because Gowasu says SSJ2 is "tens of times" stronger than base form. The manga also has Zeno not even notice SSJ2 is different from SSJ1 (though that could be because of the appearance).

2x is ridiculously large. 4x for SSJ3 even more so. I think you're leaning towards bloating numbers for the sake of it instead of sticking to what's reasonable.

Yeah, after my last research into the topic, it's best to conclude that everyone assumes Gohan's full power is his Super Saiyan power. How to explain the Budokai would probably have to go that Gohan got mad enough to transform, but no one expects Gohan to have that as his regular capable form.

I think it makes more sense for him to just give Gohan the wrong aura for whatever reason. Even when Dabra is introduced and compared to Cell, he's still on this "yesterday's best is today's trash" mindset. SSJ Majin Vegeta is massive yes, but is this not because their friend is being possessed?

The issue here is that Toriyama made a mistake and contradicted himself, and we don't know if we should call it a retcon or ignore it. I say ignore it. With all the contradictions Super pulls off, it's simply more logical to ignore any contradictions instead of going back and whacking our brains with how the old stories work now. Because Toriyama is not thinking "Now I think last chapter should've been like this", he's simply not thinking about last chapter at all.

Does anyone have a translation of what Goku and Vegeta say about Gohan when he faces Dabura?

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

 

[FeatsofPower]

SSJ Majin Vegeta is massive yes, but is this not because their friend is being possessed?

No, because everyone is surprised he has Super Saiyan 2 and he's still the definitive threat, not Dabura. What is the point if Dabura is a bigger threat?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No, because everyone is surprised he has Super Saiyan 2 and he's still the definitive threat, not Dabura. What is the point if Dabura is a bigger threat?

But if Goku can just go SSJ2 and one shot Dabra and Vegeta at once, what's the drama?

 

[SIAD]

Not any more than Goku could ever hope to kill Vegeta without Kaio-Ken in the Saiyan Saga. DBS goes the other way around because Gowasu says SSJ2 is "tens of times" stronger than base form. The manga also has Zeno not even notice SSJ2 is different from SSJ1 (though that could be because of the appearance).

2x is ridiculously large. 4x for SSJ3 even more so. I think you're leaning towards bloating numbers for the sake of it instead of sticking to what's reasonable.



I think it makes more sense for him to just give Gohan the wrong aura for whatever reason. Even when Dabra is introduced and compared to Cell, he's still on this "yesterday's best is today's trash" mindset. SSJ Majin Vegeta is massive yes, but is this not because their friend is being possessed?

The issue here is that Toriyama made a mistake and contradicted himself, and we don't know if we should call it a retcon or ignore it. I say ignore it. With all the contradictions Super pulls off, it's simply more logical to ignore any contradictions instead of going back and whacking our brains with how the old stories work now. Because Toriyama is not thinking "Now I think last chapter should've been like this", he's simply not thinking about last chapter at all.



Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

Thank you very much

It is much easier to compare the powers of someone who is fighting, than someone who is standing. Vegeta comments that Gohan was stronger when he was a child, but he did not imply that he has lost too much power.

The fight between Gohan vs Dabura reminds me a lot of the fight between Goku vs Cell. In both cases they seemed even, but as the fight went on, both Dabura and Cell showed themselves to be stronger.

That's why I have Dabura (Vs Gohan) = SPC.