- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
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- 415
I want it to be in PM because we can at least debate this point by point rather than replying to each other days after days. This is just so many points piled up together. Choose one topic and ignore the rest, and afterwards we can return to the other topics. Let's Choose the Multipliers point, and debate it on DBzeta if you want. It's your choice, but I'd like it if you agreed. I countered your claims and if you wish to debate the Multipliers point, just counter the points I made about Multipliers. If you don't want to, then I'll probably reply to you in days
Again this is no issue because Goku has already did that multiple times for absolutely no reason to begin with. Against Krillin, he did it, which is absolutely not even needed. Goku also did go SsjB against Super Shenron who's around Krillin's power, so transforming here holds absolutely no merit
Except the issue here is not about whether they are near Goku's power or not. In general go transformed into SsjB, yet there is absolutely no reason to transform into any God form. Revert back or not, that's not an issue either since he still managed to casually defeat Trunks. Logically, that would mean one of the 3 points I mentioned
That statement would only apply to the current powers. Whis would he comparing what he is seeing in perspective. So this doesn't hold much value either
No you've got that all wrong. Just because Sparring with someone is better than doing it alone, doesn't mean it isn't throwing light attacks. That has never been stated at all. Sparring as the definition suggests, is not taking things seriously. DBZ has never went against this. Gohan was so weak in comparison to Goku, that not even sparring with him is worth it. In fact, Goku in DBS wanted to spar with literally anyone, even Master Roshi, meaning he isn't going to take it seriously (until Roshi concedes that he's so weak in comparison to Goku to even make him enjoy himself). It looked intense to us, because that's how dramatizing effects and sparks work. DBZ don't usually give weak effects and aftermath. So the fight is full of reactions which aren't a good judging basis at all
Except against Beerus, Goku was going all out as heavily implied. Against 17, Goku gave up and told 17 to stop meaning he can't fight him well as a Ssj3. Against Toppo, he's shown to be inferior and in all these cases, it's implied. Against Trunks, it's a sparring match rather than a serious one. Goku suggested that he wanted to spar which would mean both characters will be holding back Until stated otherwise, while Trunks is shown to have gone full power but Goku wasn't, so the safest assumption is that goku was holding back. Absolutely nothing contradicts this so it's a very fine statement, and saying Goku was using full power goes against any type of intention.
Wrong. Trunks was using his base form and attacked Goku while Bloodlusted. Goku was surprised Trunks can go Ssj2. As soon as Trunks goes Ssj2 in particular, Goku is shocked and says he hardly recognizes him. In context, this is a clear indication about Trunks going Ssj2, rather than Trunks himself. He never expected Trunks to achieve Ssj2 at all, and that's why he's surprised.
Because Goku said he wanted to test trunks in this sparring match and see where he got in power. Goku went Ssj3 just to show him that there's a form that's above Ssj2. Goku even wanted to surprise Trunks because he told him that he wants to surprise him using Ssj3 as the trigger to Trunks's reaction. In context, nothing suggests Goku needed it. Trunks did overpower Goku, but there's no proof Goku was using his all since it's a sparring match AND he used his finger to block Trunks's sword rather than trying to stop it using his hands or in any other way, like Gohan did against Dabura.
There's nothing that says he didn't want to show him how powerful Goku is or so. Goku as a Ssj3 dodges full power Ssj2 Trunks just fine without showing any serious intent like Trunks, and only did he go SsjG to knock him out completely. Goku might be holding back, but that doesn't mean Ssj3 Goku should be able to knock Ssj2 Trunks like that. Base Black hasn't been shown to have knocked Trunks to base form in one single attack, and so suggesting that Ssj3 Goku would in very wrong, since base black also managed to block a couple of attacks from Ssj2 Vegeta. Knocking someone flat in one attack is not as easy as you make it sound
Goku said that everyone including him and Vegeta are in trouble against Black solely because Ssj2 Trunks is fodder to black, so Goku concluded it's gonna be hard using trunks's assertion which contradicts what we saw later, which is Vegeta slapping Black.
At the start of the arc, Goku and Vegeta are evenly fighting in base form. If Vegeta is far above Goku, then that would never work
Wrong. SsjB transformation kills the person's stamina fast (stated in the anime as well, but was disregarded in the universe 6 arc, but reminded in the ToP arc) which would make Holding back a completely wrong issue. Because SsjB reduces stamina fast, Goku would need it to finish a job fast and maintain its power rather than wasting its power, yet Goku still uses it to hold back despite the obvious drawback. All forms can be used to hold back.
Ssj3 Goku is implied to have heavily suppressed his power against Fat Buu since. Goku also held back when he went Ssj2 against Yakon. Goku as a Ssj also held back plenty against Cell at the start, or when he used 50% infront of Korin. So suppression is something shown in every form. He would suppress his power that low for Trunks since the implication goes to say that Vegeta <= Goku and forms are set multipliers, and therefore it wouldn't work if Trunks was anywhere near Goku.
You're absolutely wrong here, or at least misunderstood the point. You're just showing me examples of Goku using a form, turns out to be useless, then he proceeds to the form afterwards. This is how it would work: Goku is already holding back against Trunks as a Ssj2, so Goku going Ssj3 would only mean that the suppressed Ssj3 Goku from that chapter is stronger than the suppressed Ssj2 Goku of that chapter. That's all. That doesn't mean that Ssj3 Goku is Stronger than any Ssj2 Goku in the world. That's not how it works
Suppressed Ssj3 Goku is not necessarily stronger than Unsuppressed Ssj2 Goku. That's a full throttle assumption. It isn't a surprise for Trunks that Goku's suppressed Ssj3 Power is that much only. Non of this means Goku wasn't holding back before.
The sequence isn't pointless at all. I don't even understand the logic behind that. Goku is suppressing his forms, so how does that break the sequence? Goku Ssj3 (Suppressed) > Goku Ssj2 (Suppressed) NOT Full Power Ssj2 Goku. You're under the assumption that no matter how much Goku tries to suppress his power as a Ssj3, it will always be above Ssj2 but that's a clear cut error.
Again, it's made clear for the current situation where Goku is suppressed. Trunks only surpassed Ssj2 Gohan CG as a Ssj2 only, while Goku can be implied to have done it from before the U6 arc and even in the RoF arc. Universe 6 arc also makes it clear enough to us that Goku's base forms and Ssj forms to be far above Buu Saga levels.
It doesn't defeat the purpose of the scene at all. This scene is something like this: Goku wants to spar with Trunks to see how far trunks has gone in power and gets surprised he has Ssj2, then Goku responds in kind without stating any reason for it. Goku then wishes to surprise Trunks that there's a form higher than Ssj2 and not that Goku will be using power higher than his Unsuppressed Ssj2 Form. Vegeta and Whis compare Trunks to the current Goku only, and they're surprised that Trunks even reached this far in power anyways. That's all.
Misleading fans is not an issue at all, because writers have already done that occasionally. Regardless, Toyotaro has done that because the intention was to let Goku spar with Trunks and see how powerful he got, not that Vegeta >>>>>> Goku, which using your logic, Base Vegeta would be above SsjG Goku. You're trying to escape this situation using another assumption which is SsjB transformation not having the same multiplier for each Saiyan using it.
It's not just some sort of belief, it's something stated in guides and has never been stated to be wrong at all. You're forming many assumptions while trying to say forms differ in multipliers depending on the people using it.
Yet again, that's an assumption. Trunks going Ssj2 is not transforming or improving hid Ssj2 form, it's just like this:
Ssj3 Goku = 400
Ssj2 Trunks = 400
therefore base Trunks = 4 and Goku's base = 1. Trunks didn't develop a new boost multiplier, Trunks just powered up and increased his power. Even Vegeta said trunks didn't transform or even did anything of that sort. It all depends on base forms
Your logic is not even understandable here. Trunks doesn't need a new form to improve his power. He has to train his base to get stronger, that's all. Train more and get stronger. Automatically his Ssj2 Form would become more powerful than before.
This doesn't prove your point at all. Trunks would obviously say Goku Black got stronger not because in particular his Ssj form did. Trunks deduced that Based on the performance of Ssj Black but not particularly that form. What trunks is implying is that black got stronger from the last time he fought him
It would mean his base got stronger. Trunks didn't say "Base form" because he didn't sense or see base Goku fight Vegeta for him to conclude. Base Black just blocked a couple of Vegeta's attacks and was powerful enough to deflect Vegeta's attacks in base. Using your logic, Base Black doesn't get stronger because Trunks only said that about his Ssj form but obviously that's wrong.
It's implied that Black only goes Ssj when he's cornered, and trunks once fought him when Goku Black was a Ssj, which would mean at one point trunks has forced Black to go Ssj, but then we see base black whooping Trunks completely implying base black got stronger and trunks also says in general that black got stronger. He told Goku about Ssj specifically because that was the form he's in, not that Base Black didn't get stronger:
So what you showed me doesn't in any way prove that Super Saiyan is not a set multiplier.
I'm using something which is stated and heavily supported in guides and never contradicted in the Manga or Anime at all. That's why our approaches are different. You're using this to escape the anomaly that occurs when you believe Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj3 Goku and just how inconsistent It is. It's a clear cut thing that Vegeta and Goku are equivalent, if not Vegeta being a bit inferior, in every form
Alright, but that only means Vegeta also had his base stronger. Vegeta didn't transform or create a new booster. He just got a rage boost which increased his power.
The next paragraph of yours is a repetition of what you said earlier.
No, not at all. The sparring match shows Base Trunks > Base Goku but the opposite is shown which would mean Goku was holding back. What you just did here is a red herring fallacy. Also, it doesn't prove that at all. It shows that goku is holding back which is affirmed later on. Their base forms has done so many changes in power it isn't even funny
What? No. Not at all. That's utterly wrong. Vegeta didn't only know of Goku's superiority when Vegeta went Ssj2. That's completely wrong. Vegeta said Goku surpassed him in general. That in no way means Ssj2. Vegeta himself has Ssj2 prior to the Majin Boost, and Vegeta already sensed Goku going Ssj, therefore he'd already have concluded that goku surpassed him from before.
Again, Guides say transformations are set multipliers and nothing him the Anime or Manga disagree. Saying otherwise is just flat out abysmal
What? Vegeta was surprised that Goku could go Ssj2 in the Buu Saga. Nothing about power has been even referenced at all. The same difference has been applied and it has never been contradicted at all. Not even remotely contradicted
All their powers are reliant on their base forms. Goku holding back against Trunks is very much supported if we use the RoF arc and the Universe 6 Arc. Also, This concept has never been contradicted so guides are supported here and stand firm
If Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj3 Goku as you're saying, then absolutely wrong. But we won't come to an agreement if each person goes on another tangent in this debate with different basis
Vegeta isn't even aware of Goku having MSsjB in the black arc until he fused with Goku yet he didn't think he's above Goku at all. He didn't even say that he surpassed him at one point, not even once. Vegeta said that he has never surpassed Goku by a large margin at all.
That has nothing to do you Vegeta surpassing Goku. Vegeta wanted to surpass Goku, but that doesn't mean he did. Lesser forms can surpass higher forms depending on the bade forms but you're assuming that Vegeta succeeded. To assume Ssj2 Vegeta surpassed Ssj3 Goku by more than 100x is just pure headcanon and needs far more evidence. You're just showing me minor evidence which can easily be debunked. Extraordinary claims need Extraordinary evidence, but you're only showing me a simplistic idea rather than truly backing it up, and your evidence is easily countered.
That's a False Dilemma Fallacy where you're suggesting that because this is not shown to have temporary boost, it means he maintained it while not accepting other possibilities. Just because it hasn't been shown, doesn't mean he maintained it. He could also have lost this boost. Which would throw this feat rendered as vague and therefore using it would be utterly opinionated
And there wasn't anything for the other side so that's pure assumption. If the Black saga shows him doing that while we know Multipliers are set, Goku was holding back against Black, and Vegeta and Goku are equivalent, then that's more than enough to suggest that Vegeta is above Goku the same way you're suggesting. We have no reason to believe such an unsupported claim at all.
No one said Base Trunks is an outlier. I don't even understand what you're pulling here. No one is claiming that Base forms are always below Ssj form, since the opposite can be shown easily. Multiple times has this been affirmed.
Power Scaling and Guide references beat any Author intentions. This is where you reach the Appeal to Authority fallacy for relying on unsupported intentions, since death of the author has already been reached here. Regardless, the story also supports me and shows that goku was holding back since Goku's base is far beyond what Trunks has ever shown and Trunks's Ssj forms are nothing.
That's an obvious inconsistency that you should also be aware of. Goku said that THEY will have trouble. Goku said that he and Vegeta will have trouble yet that goes against Ssj2 Vegeta stomping Black and goes against your logic of SsjB Goku being equal to SsjB Vegeta who could whoop Black's was.
Later on, when Goku sensed Black, he says it won't be as easy as he thought it'd be, meaning he thought it was going to be easy in his mind but didn't bring it up to Trunks. If anything this is just an intended foreshadowing that Goku and Vegeta won't find it easy indeed.
Beerus's statement is easily contradicted and shown to be wrong on the spot. So yes, we have factual material from before showing that Base Saiyans can surpass their prior Ssj forms.
Evil Vegeta said:
Again this is no issue because Goku has already did that multiple times for absolutely no reason to begin with. Against Krillin, he did it, which is absolutely not even needed. Goku also did go SsjB against Super Shenron who's around Krillin's power, so transforming here holds absolutely no merit
Except the issue here is not about whether they are near Goku's power or not. In general go transformed into SsjB, yet there is absolutely no reason to transform into any God form. Revert back or not, that's not an issue either since he still managed to casually defeat Trunks. Logically, that would mean one of the 3 points I mentioned
That statement would only apply to the current powers. Whis would he comparing what he is seeing in perspective. So this doesn't hold much value either
No you've got that all wrong. Just because Sparring with someone is better than doing it alone, doesn't mean it isn't throwing light attacks. That has never been stated at all. Sparring as the definition suggests, is not taking things seriously. DBZ has never went against this. Gohan was so weak in comparison to Goku, that not even sparring with him is worth it. In fact, Goku in DBS wanted to spar with literally anyone, even Master Roshi, meaning he isn't going to take it seriously (until Roshi concedes that he's so weak in comparison to Goku to even make him enjoy himself). It looked intense to us, because that's how dramatizing effects and sparks work. DBZ don't usually give weak effects and aftermath. So the fight is full of reactions which aren't a good judging basis at all
Except against Beerus, Goku was going all out as heavily implied. Against 17, Goku gave up and told 17 to stop meaning he can't fight him well as a Ssj3. Against Toppo, he's shown to be inferior and in all these cases, it's implied. Against Trunks, it's a sparring match rather than a serious one. Goku suggested that he wanted to spar which would mean both characters will be holding back Until stated otherwise, while Trunks is shown to have gone full power but Goku wasn't, so the safest assumption is that goku was holding back. Absolutely nothing contradicts this so it's a very fine statement, and saying Goku was using full power goes against any type of intention.
Wrong. Trunks was using his base form and attacked Goku while Bloodlusted. Goku was surprised Trunks can go Ssj2. As soon as Trunks goes Ssj2 in particular, Goku is shocked and says he hardly recognizes him. In context, this is a clear indication about Trunks going Ssj2, rather than Trunks himself. He never expected Trunks to achieve Ssj2 at all, and that's why he's surprised.
Because Goku said he wanted to test trunks in this sparring match and see where he got in power. Goku went Ssj3 just to show him that there's a form that's above Ssj2. Goku even wanted to surprise Trunks because he told him that he wants to surprise him using Ssj3 as the trigger to Trunks's reaction. In context, nothing suggests Goku needed it. Trunks did overpower Goku, but there's no proof Goku was using his all since it's a sparring match AND he used his finger to block Trunks's sword rather than trying to stop it using his hands or in any other way, like Gohan did against Dabura.
There's nothing that says he didn't want to show him how powerful Goku is or so. Goku as a Ssj3 dodges full power Ssj2 Trunks just fine without showing any serious intent like Trunks, and only did he go SsjG to knock him out completely. Goku might be holding back, but that doesn't mean Ssj3 Goku should be able to knock Ssj2 Trunks like that. Base Black hasn't been shown to have knocked Trunks to base form in one single attack, and so suggesting that Ssj3 Goku would in very wrong, since base black also managed to block a couple of attacks from Ssj2 Vegeta. Knocking someone flat in one attack is not as easy as you make it sound
Goku said that everyone including him and Vegeta are in trouble against Black solely because Ssj2 Trunks is fodder to black, so Goku concluded it's gonna be hard using trunks's assertion which contradicts what we saw later, which is Vegeta slapping Black.
At the start of the arc, Goku and Vegeta are evenly fighting in base form. If Vegeta is far above Goku, then that would never work
Wrong. SsjB transformation kills the person's stamina fast (stated in the anime as well, but was disregarded in the universe 6 arc, but reminded in the ToP arc) which would make Holding back a completely wrong issue. Because SsjB reduces stamina fast, Goku would need it to finish a job fast and maintain its power rather than wasting its power, yet Goku still uses it to hold back despite the obvious drawback. All forms can be used to hold back.
Ssj3 Goku is implied to have heavily suppressed his power against Fat Buu since. Goku also held back when he went Ssj2 against Yakon. Goku as a Ssj also held back plenty against Cell at the start, or when he used 50% infront of Korin. So suppression is something shown in every form. He would suppress his power that low for Trunks since the implication goes to say that Vegeta <= Goku and forms are set multipliers, and therefore it wouldn't work if Trunks was anywhere near Goku.
You're absolutely wrong here, or at least misunderstood the point. You're just showing me examples of Goku using a form, turns out to be useless, then he proceeds to the form afterwards. This is how it would work: Goku is already holding back against Trunks as a Ssj2, so Goku going Ssj3 would only mean that the suppressed Ssj3 Goku from that chapter is stronger than the suppressed Ssj2 Goku of that chapter. That's all. That doesn't mean that Ssj3 Goku is Stronger than any Ssj2 Goku in the world. That's not how it works
Suppressed Ssj3 Goku is not necessarily stronger than Unsuppressed Ssj2 Goku. That's a full throttle assumption. It isn't a surprise for Trunks that Goku's suppressed Ssj3 Power is that much only. Non of this means Goku wasn't holding back before.
The sequence isn't pointless at all. I don't even understand the logic behind that. Goku is suppressing his forms, so how does that break the sequence? Goku Ssj3 (Suppressed) > Goku Ssj2 (Suppressed) NOT Full Power Ssj2 Goku. You're under the assumption that no matter how much Goku tries to suppress his power as a Ssj3, it will always be above Ssj2 but that's a clear cut error.
Again, it's made clear for the current situation where Goku is suppressed. Trunks only surpassed Ssj2 Gohan CG as a Ssj2 only, while Goku can be implied to have done it from before the U6 arc and even in the RoF arc. Universe 6 arc also makes it clear enough to us that Goku's base forms and Ssj forms to be far above Buu Saga levels.
It doesn't defeat the purpose of the scene at all. This scene is something like this: Goku wants to spar with Trunks to see how far trunks has gone in power and gets surprised he has Ssj2, then Goku responds in kind without stating any reason for it. Goku then wishes to surprise Trunks that there's a form higher than Ssj2 and not that Goku will be using power higher than his Unsuppressed Ssj2 Form. Vegeta and Whis compare Trunks to the current Goku only, and they're surprised that Trunks even reached this far in power anyways. That's all.
Misleading fans is not an issue at all, because writers have already done that occasionally. Regardless, Toyotaro has done that because the intention was to let Goku spar with Trunks and see how powerful he got, not that Vegeta >>>>>> Goku, which using your logic, Base Vegeta would be above SsjG Goku. You're trying to escape this situation using another assumption which is SsjB transformation not having the same multiplier for each Saiyan using it.
It's not just some sort of belief, it's something stated in guides and has never been stated to be wrong at all. You're forming many assumptions while trying to say forms differ in multipliers depending on the people using it.
Yet again, that's an assumption. Trunks going Ssj2 is not transforming or improving hid Ssj2 form, it's just like this:
Ssj3 Goku = 400
Ssj2 Trunks = 400
therefore base Trunks = 4 and Goku's base = 1. Trunks didn't develop a new boost multiplier, Trunks just powered up and increased his power. Even Vegeta said trunks didn't transform or even did anything of that sort. It all depends on base forms
Your logic is not even understandable here. Trunks doesn't need a new form to improve his power. He has to train his base to get stronger, that's all. Train more and get stronger. Automatically his Ssj2 Form would become more powerful than before.
This doesn't prove your point at all. Trunks would obviously say Goku Black got stronger not because in particular his Ssj form did. Trunks deduced that Based on the performance of Ssj Black but not particularly that form. What trunks is implying is that black got stronger from the last time he fought him
It would mean his base got stronger. Trunks didn't say "Base form" because he didn't sense or see base Goku fight Vegeta for him to conclude. Base Black just blocked a couple of Vegeta's attacks and was powerful enough to deflect Vegeta's attacks in base. Using your logic, Base Black doesn't get stronger because Trunks only said that about his Ssj form but obviously that's wrong.
It's implied that Black only goes Ssj when he's cornered, and trunks once fought him when Goku Black was a Ssj, which would mean at one point trunks has forced Black to go Ssj, but then we see base black whooping Trunks completely implying base black got stronger and trunks also says in general that black got stronger. He told Goku about Ssj specifically because that was the form he's in, not that Base Black didn't get stronger:
So what you showed me doesn't in any way prove that Super Saiyan is not a set multiplier.
I'm using something which is stated and heavily supported in guides and never contradicted in the Manga or Anime at all. That's why our approaches are different. You're using this to escape the anomaly that occurs when you believe Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj3 Goku and just how inconsistent It is. It's a clear cut thing that Vegeta and Goku are equivalent, if not Vegeta being a bit inferior, in every form
Alright, but that only means Vegeta also had his base stronger. Vegeta didn't transform or create a new booster. He just got a rage boost which increased his power.
The next paragraph of yours is a repetition of what you said earlier.
No, not at all. The sparring match shows Base Trunks > Base Goku but the opposite is shown which would mean Goku was holding back. What you just did here is a red herring fallacy. Also, it doesn't prove that at all. It shows that goku is holding back which is affirmed later on. Their base forms has done so many changes in power it isn't even funny
What? No. Not at all. That's utterly wrong. Vegeta didn't only know of Goku's superiority when Vegeta went Ssj2. That's completely wrong. Vegeta said Goku surpassed him in general. That in no way means Ssj2. Vegeta himself has Ssj2 prior to the Majin Boost, and Vegeta already sensed Goku going Ssj, therefore he'd already have concluded that goku surpassed him from before.
Again, Guides say transformations are set multipliers and nothing him the Anime or Manga disagree. Saying otherwise is just flat out abysmal
What? Vegeta was surprised that Goku could go Ssj2 in the Buu Saga. Nothing about power has been even referenced at all. The same difference has been applied and it has never been contradicted at all. Not even remotely contradicted
All their powers are reliant on their base forms. Goku holding back against Trunks is very much supported if we use the RoF arc and the Universe 6 Arc. Also, This concept has never been contradicted so guides are supported here and stand firm
If Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj3 Goku as you're saying, then absolutely wrong. But we won't come to an agreement if each person goes on another tangent in this debate with different basis
Vegeta isn't even aware of Goku having MSsjB in the black arc until he fused with Goku yet he didn't think he's above Goku at all. He didn't even say that he surpassed him at one point, not even once. Vegeta said that he has never surpassed Goku by a large margin at all.
That has nothing to do you Vegeta surpassing Goku. Vegeta wanted to surpass Goku, but that doesn't mean he did. Lesser forms can surpass higher forms depending on the bade forms but you're assuming that Vegeta succeeded. To assume Ssj2 Vegeta surpassed Ssj3 Goku by more than 100x is just pure headcanon and needs far more evidence. You're just showing me minor evidence which can easily be debunked. Extraordinary claims need Extraordinary evidence, but you're only showing me a simplistic idea rather than truly backing it up, and your evidence is easily countered.
That's a False Dilemma Fallacy where you're suggesting that because this is not shown to have temporary boost, it means he maintained it while not accepting other possibilities. Just because it hasn't been shown, doesn't mean he maintained it. He could also have lost this boost. Which would throw this feat rendered as vague and therefore using it would be utterly opinionated
And there wasn't anything for the other side so that's pure assumption. If the Black saga shows him doing that while we know Multipliers are set, Goku was holding back against Black, and Vegeta and Goku are equivalent, then that's more than enough to suggest that Vegeta is above Goku the same way you're suggesting. We have no reason to believe such an unsupported claim at all.
No one said Base Trunks is an outlier. I don't even understand what you're pulling here. No one is claiming that Base forms are always below Ssj form, since the opposite can be shown easily. Multiple times has this been affirmed.
Power Scaling and Guide references beat any Author intentions. This is where you reach the Appeal to Authority fallacy for relying on unsupported intentions, since death of the author has already been reached here. Regardless, the story also supports me and shows that goku was holding back since Goku's base is far beyond what Trunks has ever shown and Trunks's Ssj forms are nothing.
That's an obvious inconsistency that you should also be aware of. Goku said that THEY will have trouble. Goku said that he and Vegeta will have trouble yet that goes against Ssj2 Vegeta stomping Black and goes against your logic of SsjB Goku being equal to SsjB Vegeta who could whoop Black's was.
Later on, when Goku sensed Black, he says it won't be as easy as he thought it'd be, meaning he thought it was going to be easy in his mind but didn't bring it up to Trunks. If anything this is just an intended foreshadowing that Goku and Vegeta won't find it easy indeed.
Beerus's statement is easily contradicted and shown to be wrong on the spot. So yes, we have factual material from before showing that Base Saiyans can surpass their prior Ssj forms.
