Super Gogeta vs Buuhan
- Thread starter FeatsofPower
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This is actually an interesting concept you've brought (either way, I've to say that Goku's attitude is changing while he's on Buu's body)...
In the statement, Goku said that Super Buu is still too strong for him and Vegeta to fight and that they would get killed if they get outside.
Goku: "Wait! Even though, Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we're simply no match for his strength! If we get outside like this, we'll definitely be done in...!"
But in the actual fact, the one that almost killed them is Kid Buu, creating an energy blast powerful enough that not even Goku and Vegeta together could knock back, and they just saved themselves due to secundary factors, not by themselves.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: "It-it's huge...! You gotta be kidding...! Do-does he intend to unleash that...!? We can't knock back something like that...!"
Facts > Statements.
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Or maybe you believe I'm more man than you... Either way, even if I'm a male, how can you also conclude that I have questionable beliefs...? You're just conspiranoic and delirant at this point, Yoshi.
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Hahaha someone that I haven't the least idea it existed and have a limited amount of information of him, you actually killed it. XDNatasha is Tosh.
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Classic cherrypicking.
Glad you agree that SSJ3 Goku can't do anything to Buutenks.
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No, you have failed to prove that I'm cherrypicking, that I question myself wheter I can take you seriously on that part or not.
Considering how soft Buu's body is, who really knows... As well that base Goku cut Gotenks Buu in half in an actual fact.
But, to put things a little more complicated to you, Goku said that when he leaves his body he will get killed... Would Super Buu let himself gather all the energy he was planning to get during the Kid Buu fight despite of how impatient he is...? Would they even have the chance to transform...? Because, it isn't as definitive as is taken if we go by that.
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The only argument to be made here is that Kid Buu was completely unpredictable by emitting a planetary-level attack that no one had anticipated. Therefore, they didn't have time to properly react to it. That was seen back on Planet Namek where Goku couldn't stop Frieza from nearly destroying its core. This was also seen in Broly where Ikari Broly emitted a mouth beam that could have wiped the Earth and both Goku and Vegeta were completely helpless despite the fact that they were stronger than Broly while in Blue. You deliberately picked one instance of Goku/Vegeta being completely helpless and omitted the context. Both Goku and Vegeta believed SSJ3 Goku had a chance in spite of that instance so clearly the narrative isn't supporting what you're insinuating here.
The narrative clearly isn't suggesting that Goku was referring to his base form specifically. I'm not even sure how that'd be an issue considering Goku had time to transform when that statement was made.
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Okay. I'll concede you on this. Even then, I don't see why Goku and Vegeta would be able to stop Kid Buu's planetary attack, if they were on the floor, regardless of SSJ3, Kaioken x3 Goku wasn't able to stop Vegeta's Garlick Gun, Gohan couldn't have stopped Super Buu's self explosion, all of this, despite of possesing a power advantage seemingly significative.
Even then, Goku would be transforming SSJ3 right off the bat despite of being a form that can only be used on the Other World and isn't still aware of the severly drain it can have on a living body? Vegeta serving as a shield would be too much against Super Buu too (Kid Buu could have one-shooted him, but he was clearly not taking the fight seriously)...
You are also ignoring Super Buu's impatience... before Vegeta's arrival on Earth, he wouldn't have given Goku time to fuse with a partner, even though he didn't have a good option to begin with, Buu was just to count to 5, Potara was introduced on a way because Buu wouldn't let Goku & Gohan to fuse, and that's what ended happening; Buu was about to kill Goku so he can't fuse with Gohan, but got saved by a miracle.
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Right. They were stronger and yet may or may not have been able to counter their opponent's attack. This actually proves my point because it doesn't establish Goku was weaker than Kid Buu. In fact, you very well just suggested that Goku can actually be stronger than Kid Buu here and still be completely helpless. Regardless, Goku was only helpless when he was ill-prepared to deal with Kid Buu's attack. Goku was helpless against Super Buu regardless of what he did. That's the implication behind that scene. Otherwise, Goku wouldn't have been adamant about fusing against Super Buu yet opted out of it against Kid Buu.
Super Buu didn't even sniff them out when Goku made that statement... Look at the narrative. Elder Kaioshin and Goku only express concern about having enough time to fuse against Buutenks. No instance within the narrative suggests that transforming in front of Buu was the issue. Goku literally transformed into Super Saiyan 3 the moment Buu attempted to kill him so we know it wasn't an issue.
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Goku is definitely weaker than Kid Buu, as he wasn't taking the fight seriously, I am talking about them (Goku & Vegeta) together... Goku also regretted his decision of not taking the Potara as he was clearly overconfident on his capabilities:
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.5
Context: after Super Saiyan 3 Goku explains he need to gather ki for 1 minute to defeat pure Boo
Goku: "Dammit~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. ...Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!."
They had no other choice, but to try gathering energy as Goku was fighting all-out and was clearly failing. Yes, but are you also ignoring that this same Goku compared him with Fat Buu and implies that they were equals?
Of course, but the context is that Goku & Vegeta would get killed if they get outside... at what point exactly...? At the very same moment they get out? It's still ambiguos as all of we know is that they can be finished at that point in time... also, considering that Goku's first option was to use SSJ, even though (as you presented) he can use SSJ3 in an instant makes even more doubitative wheter he was scared or not to fight Super Buu or what was he suggesting when he made that statement, your own premises betrays you one way or another.Super Buu didn't even sniff them out when Goku made that statement... Look at the narrative. Elder Kaioshin and Goku only express concern about having enough time to fuse against Buutenks. No instance within the narrative suggests that transforming in front of Buu was the issue. Goku literally transformed into Super Saiyan 3 the moment Buu attempted to kill him so we know it wasn't an issue.
No, Old Kaioshin questions wheter Buu would let them do the dance, that's why he suggested the Potara, which is something he can use on an instant; at the end, that's what ended happening, Buu was trying to kill Goku so he can avoid to deal with a fusion of Goku and Gohan. You still haven't addressed wheter Buu would let him gather all the energy on that amount of time.
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Goku was confident he could win but that doesn't tell me that Kid Buu was stronger. Goku stated that Pure Buu was toying with him primarily because his ki doesn't drop. Kid Buu is capable of bouncing back from Goku's attacks unaffected primarily due to Buu's unique physiology but the same can't be said for Goku whose stamina was dropping even faster due to using Super Saiyan 3. But regardless, I'm just establishing how your examples don't really prove your case.
It's really not ambiguous. Your argument is equivalent to saying that if Goku claimed, "Hey wait! Super Buu is actually stronger than me", then the reader wouldn't know at what point that'd be the case. Base? Super Saiyan? That's obviously not what is expected by the reader. We know Goku can use Super Saiyan 3 and Vegeta knew about Super Saiyan 3 which Goku tried to hide before. The fact that Goku needs fusion to beat Buu means that based on the information we are given, Goku and Vegeta cannot defeat Buu. It's really not complicated. You are inserting your own subtext by trying to dismiss statements with arbitrary assumptions rather than accepting the narrative.
That said, Goku's first instinct when fighting Buu has always been to use Super Saiyan 3. Goku had done so against Fat Buu, did so against Buutenks immediately, and claimed that he needed to use Super Saiyan 3 from the get-go against Kid Buu.
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Of course, while one of them (Goku) was giving his all, the other one (Buu) was relaxed, playing around, mocking his opponent, something which 17 at no point could do with Piccolo on a real-equally matched fight. But yeah, Goku and Kid Buu are evenly matched...
You are using an example of the reader as if everyone would think the same, even though, there will always be people that is more attent and think of different possibilities, and not just one.It's really not ambiguous. Your argument is equivalent to saying that if Goku claimed, "Hey wait! Super Buu is actually stronger than me", then the reader wouldn't know at what point that'd be the case. Base? Super Saiyan? That's obviously not what is expected by the reader. We know Goku can use Super Saiyan 3 and Vegeta knew about Super Saiyan 3 which Goku tried to hide before. The fact that Goku needs fusion to beat Buu means that based on the information we are given, Goku and Vegeta cannot defeat Buu. It's really not complicated. You are inserting your own subtext by trying to dismiss statements with arbitrary assumptions rather than accepting the narrative.
That said, Goku's first instinct when fighting Buu has always been to use Super Saiyan 3. Goku had done so against Fat Buu, did so against Buutenks immediately, and claimed that he needed to use Super Saiyan 3 from the get-go against Kid Buu.
Goku suggest Fusion at a point in which he had more than enough time to do so, as Buu hadn't appeared yet, he can also be unsure wheter Buu would let him gather all of that ki, as he wasn't willing to let him fuse on Earth before of Vegeta's arrival and needed to use IT to dodge him, as well as afterwards, Buu was trying to use a blast towards him & Vegeta.
Wrong, Goku wanted to avoid using SSJ3 against Fat Buu because of the repercutions of a transformation that he is not accustomed of, but had to make Trunks time to found the radar.
Wrong again, Goku was willing to fuse with Gohan while arriving on Earth, but his plan failed and had no other choice but to use SSJ3 to take the less damage possible and can contend with Buu in the time Gohan find the earring and they can fuse.
You still haven't answer the question of wheter Buu would let Goku to gather all of that ki or not...
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Android 17 can't regenerate from attacks and we never got to see the fight as it ended just as when Piccolo's stamina started to drop. No one also claimed that they were evenly matched in general. In terms of power, there's nothing placing Kid Buu stronger than Goku. The extreme close-up shots we are given show two equals duking it out. The childlike behavior is an example of Pure Buu's character. Goku at an equal battle power can't kill him short of a full power blast so Kid Buu wouldn't believe he was in any danger.
No. I'm providing you with a straightforward interpretation of Goku's statement given what we know. To against that by suggesting, "Oh, maybe Goku was referring to Super Saiyan" is not only inserting your own subtext into Goku's statement, but it's also suggesting that Goku could actually do something after all which is blatantly contradicting the narrative. If a character claims that they are stronger than them, then we assume the fighter is stronger given what we know unless suggested otherwise. It's as simple as that.
You just acknowledged that Goku opted for Super Saiyan 3 against Fat Buu and Buutenks when Goku realized fusion was out of the picture and had to fight Buu directly. This is no different. Fusion is out of the picture, so Goku would resort to Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu because it's consistent with his character. Why wouldn't he anyways?
Because it's not relevant. There's no reason to believe that a full-energy blast from Goku could have defeated Super Buu and Buutenks.
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17 considers himself the victor because his stamina doesn't drop; with every movement they make they lose stamina, something which is pointed out on the fight between Vegeta & 18 by Piccolo. Of course, Kid Buu would be acting like a child against Goku, but would get nervous and worried due to the thought of getting touched by the Genkidama... it truly seems logical.
If you're talking about the fight itself between Piccolo & 17, 18 states that they were fighting on par, before of that, Cell & 16 tell us that he can contend with both androids. Goku and Cell were trading blows, as well as Vegeta with 18, yet, in both ocassions they weren't equal, what makes Kid Buu vs Goku situation any different?
So, when Cell claims that Trunks is stronger than him, we asume that he is talking about his power in general or just his resting state?
Against Gotenks Buu, fusion wasn't out of the picture; had Gohan catched the earring properly he and his father would've fused... Against Fat Buu, he was the only one that can do something, he don't have secundary options.
We are given that Goku go straight to SSJ and actually was threaten him which oppose to his previous scary attitude with the thought of fighting Base Super Buu.
Oh, so you can't give an answer, but more of what you think is the case... I'm fine with that (also, I'm not claiming Goku can defeat Gotenks Buu or Super Buu, don't know what makes you think that is the case).
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