Suppressed Piccolo ~ Humans

[Victorious]

50x boost for SSJ is critical IMO. It explains why Kaioken was abandoned, as well as why no one should give a shit about Oozaru. You'd figure Vegeta would be pissed at not having his tail if SSJ didnt make it irrelevant.

 

[p123]

Agreed

 

[ahill1]

Gero's power sensor seems to work just fine for powers much lower than himself. He seems to indicate that Vegeta joining would make the fight more interesting.

Base Vegeta > Piccolo Suppressed

Gero says that if he absorbs the remaining people, minus Vegeta of course, he can tangle with Vegeta.

Gero + Gohan, Tien, Krillin, Piccolo Suppressed = Beating Vegeta

After he absorbs Piccolo, when presented with the possibility of absorbing Piccolo, he offers the same statement, that he could tangle with Vegeta should he add this last piece.

Thus, Gohan + Tien + Krillin ~ Piccolo Suppressed

Here's how I have it...

Piccolo Suppressed 25,000,0000
Gohan 10,000,000
Krillin 8,000,000
Tien 7,000,000

It is not 100% concrete, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than pulling shit out of your ass. It gives us structure in a diifcult area.

But if that's the case, wouldn't a hypothetical SSJ Gohan be A LOT weaker than Goku SSJ from the same saga? I take Goku saying that Gohan will be a worth training partner (or something along those lines) to indicate that base Gohan isn't that different from base Goku.

 

[p123]

I'm sure a Super Saiyan makes for a much better sparring partner than a Base Saiyan does, don't you think?

Base Saiyan Gohan is a hell of a lot different than Base Saiyan Goku. Nothing indicates that Gohan is drastically on a different level than the humans and the humans and Gohan only comprise a percentage of Suppressed Piccolo, who is not as strong as Base Vegeta.

I believe it was GS who did bring up a point which made me alter the power of Gohan to 12 million and dropped the humans a bit down to 7 million.

I wouldn't feel comfortable widening the gap much more than that.

 

[Victorious]

I'm still not buying that 2x bullshit for SSJ2. I just read those figures came out in the Super Exciting Guide in 2003, 7 years after Z ended. Lol.

 

[p123]

I use 2.5x boost for Super Saiyan 2 Vic. It works great as far as I can see. No real issues. But don't forget, I wouldn't be able to get away with that unless I changed the amplification on ki blasts, which I did.

I think the big blasts are 2x.

So Super Saiyan 3 can deflect a Super Saiyan 2's amplified blast and a Super Saiyan 2 can deflect a Super Saiyan's amplified blast. I think that's pretty damn good.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think SSJ3 can tank even a Final Flash from SSJ2. SSJ2 can take SSJ's amplified blasts too, but would be quite wounded by a Final Flash or so.

 

[p123]

Tank? Where is that suggested?

Even Super Perfect Cell needs to brace himself for Super Saiyan Vegeta's amplified blast.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Just the way i see things. SSJ can take everything a base throws at him, so i think this carry to the other levels as well.

SPC didn't even see the blast coming, so it's not a far comparison.

 

[p123]

Super Saiyan is 50x stronger than Base. Are you saying we should make every transformation equal to that? Because that would be crazy.

2nd Form Freeza didn't see Vegeta's blast coming, yet he completely tanked it. Why would this be different?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not necessarily 50x, but something big enough to make the prior form an ant.

Freeza tanking Vegeta is defintely not the best case. We've seen wider gaps do more damage with off guard attacks.

 

[p123]

So tell me which instances suggest that the following form can tank the other, because I'm not buying it.

Super Saiyan Grade 3 is suggested to be a tremendous boost, yet I don't hear anyone talking about Trunks being able to tank Super Vegeta. That would be ridiculous seeing what happened to Cell.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nowhere. It's just the way i interpret the story and the multipliers.

But Cell tanked Vegeta, and Trunks >> Cell...

 

[Victorious]

Trunks is probably tanking Vegeta without moving

 

[p123]

Super Vegeta's Final Flash. We are talking amplified blasts you fool!

 

[Victorious]

Ohh no. He probably gets wrecked too..and dies. I've got that blast 2x Cell. So like 1.5-1.6x Grade3 Future Trunks.

 

[p123]

Don't you think that's a bit much? Why does it have to be that much more powerful?

 

[Victorious]

Its not needed no. But the lowest I can see is

Super Vegeta : 50
Warm up Cell : 100
Final Flash : 150

And Grade 3 Trunks can be like : 125-135. Going by absolute minimums Grade 3 Trunks can come out like Recoome did after the Final Crash I guess.

However, as far as myself and my numbers are concerned. Remember I see Cell arc KHH >>> Saiyan arc KHH = 2.22x. So the Cell arc KHH when fully charged has got to be at least 3.5x. And considering Vegeta's always got great amp and the Final Flash took so damn long to charge I think it deserves to be slightly more highly amplified than the Cell arc KHH. So I see it as 4x.

So my numbers come out like

Super Vegeta : 50
Warm up Cell : 100
Grade 3 Trunks : 130
Final Flash : 200



I

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What about Goku's Kamehameha with Kaioken, Vic? Wouldn't it have killed Freeza and Vegeta if Goku had a >2x amp on his Kamehameha?

 

[p123]

Final Flash should indeed be above Kamehameha. It's charged up to the extreme as well. If Goku charged up Kamehameha, perhaps he could hit similar amplifications, there just isn't time for it though.

How strong do you have Final Explosion and honestly, I think I might have to up Super Saiyan 2 or 3, Base Gotenks > SSJ Kids > Piccolo. That should at least be the standard. Base Gotenks power is all over the place, but that one we should be able to make at least. Damn...

I'm trying to see if any of my gaps need tightening up. But I don't think so. It feels like huge gaps, but they are realistic. The issue with Cell is that if you follow the gaps, the Androids become a bit too weak in comparison to the Base Saiyans. That's a bit rough, but still workable.

I go with this for now...


Yardrat Goku 750
Trunks 600
Gohan 1 Arm 550
Future 17 450
Gohan 2 Arms 400
Cyborg Freeza 400
Goku Namek 375
Freeza 360


Have you adopted my 360/375 numbers for Freeza and Goku on Namek? You probably should...

Anyway, I tried this and it just doesn't work...

Yardrat Goku 600
Trunks 500
Gohan 1 Arm 450
Cyborg Freeza 400
Goku Namek 375
Future 17 375
Freeza 360
Gohan 2 Arms 325


Now this is all technically fine, especially if Vegeta doesn't have Super Saiyan, but it doesn't seem right. Future 17 being higher than Freeza feels right. I'm already pushing it with Gohan being equal to him, but if I push any further, it doesn't feel right.