The Answer Finally Revealed

[p123]

What we've all been waiting for. Eureka! According to Piccolo, we get this chain.

Super Buu (Initial) > Base Gotenks Post > Super Saiyan Gotenks Pre > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Fat Buu > Base Gotenks Pre > Majin Vegeta


However, there doesn't seem to be major differences in the power of Goten and Trunks in their 6 day stunt. There is only one way to explain this that makes any sense at all.

Goten and Trunks have now acquired Super Saiyan 2 on their own and fusion is based on the fusees top power, which explains why Goku was so confident in fusing with Gohan and defeating Buutenks, even though the boys general Super Saiyan power should be somewhat on par with Goku and Gohan's previous Super Saiyan power.

It's not suggested in the manga, but this would be the possible explanation how Gotenks Base Power jumped up, without having Goten and Trunks power jump marginally, other than adding a form.

This is also under the logic that Super Saiyan is a tiny boost for fusion.

Either way, this is the best theory if you dare to try to make that chain work. You're welcome.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I see no reason to have Base post more than 1.5x Base pre.

 

[p123]

Base Post > Ssj Pre > Base Pre

 

[Cell]

I've come to my own conclusions on this subject... and how to make that chain work... but they weren't this.

If you're happy to roll with what you've come up with, by all means: roll with it. But you shouldn't think it to be the only answer.

If you would like me to go into detail on what I believe is a superior answer to this conundrum... I'll do so later, when I have a bit of free time.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

If they really acquired Super Saiyan 2, why would they be so surprised there was a level above Super Saiyan...in Fusion?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Base Post > Ssj Pre > Base Pre

Use small SSJ multipliers for fusions.

 

[Cell]

Base Post > Ssj Pre > Base Pre

Use small SSJ multipliers for fusions.

No indications of fusion transformations being any different than everyone else's. Something would've been noted. The closest thing you get to an implication like this is Vegetto being perplexed by his own SSJ strength... which, although likely was simply to taunt Buu more than anything else, would counteract your argument.

Next.

 

[ahill1]

I'd like to see your theory, Cell!

 

[Cell]

Well, basically... as we're shown by Piccolo's doubt pre-fusion, [Post-RoSaT] Goten/Trunks haven't improved enough (in base) to garner a fusion result capable of defeating Buu. They fuse, Piccolo holds hope, etc etc...

So, [Post-RoSaT] Gotenks had a better resulting fusion than either of the Pre-RoSaT attempts...

My solution relies on this idea: the more in-sync and focused on fusing the participants are, the better the result.

With that in mind, I came to the conclusion that any distractions during the fusion were detremental to the result. As an example, here's my prefered fusion formula format:

2A x F
C ^ D

A: Strength of lowest participating fusee.
F: "Fusion multiplier" ...whatever you might need that to be.
C: A constant (personally I use 2) to be used in conjunction with...
D: The number of distractions present during the fusion dance.

And these would be my distractions during each displayed fusion:

[Pre-RoSaT] Gotenks

• Trunks must supress his power to match Goten

Distraction count: 1
A pretty good attempt but not the best possible result.

[Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks

• Trunks must supress his power to match Goten
• Goten must maintain SSJ
• Trunks must maintain SSJ

Distraction count: 3
The worst result of the 3 examples shown, due to the smallest difference from participant strength to fusion result strength.

[Post-RoSaT] Gotenks
Distraction count: 0
I believe this resulting fusion was the best possible... because there were no distractions. Obviously, this is where my conjecture comes into play but in order to eliminate the distractions, Goten would now have to equal Trunks. This is something I'm perfectly happy with believing as he entered the RoSaT with far more motivation than Trunks and has been shown to hold a superior ability for strength gain (when compared to Trunks).


The added bonus of following this belief/system is that a "Gohan + Goku" fusion wouldn't be the same as a "Goku + Vegeta" fusion, allowing Gogeta to be much stronger than the theorized Gogeta placements most people have.

 

[ahill1]

Well, basically... as we're shown by Piccolo's doubt pre-fusion, [Post-RoSaT] Goten/Trunks haven't improved enough (in base) to garner a fusion result capable of defeating Buu. They fuse, Piccolo holds hope, etc etc...

So, [Post-RoSaT] Gotenks had a better resulting fusion than either of the Pre-RoSaT attempts...

My solution relies on this idea: the more in-sync and focused on fusing the participants are, the better the result.

With that in mind, I came to the conclusion that any distractions during the fusion were detremental to the result. As an example, here's my prefered fusion formula format:

2A x F
C ^ D

A: Strength of lowest participating fusee.
F: "Fusion multiplier" ...whatever you might need that to be.
C: A constant (personally I use 2) to be used in conjunction with...
D: The number of distractions present during the fusion dance.

And these would be my distractions during each displayed fusion:

[Pre-RoSaT] Gotenks

• Trunks must supress his power to match Goten

Distraction count: 1
A pretty good attempt but not the best possible result.

[Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks

• Trunks must supress his power to match Goten
• Goten must maintain SSJ
• Trunks must maintain SSJ

Distraction count: 3
The worst result of the 3 examples shown, due to the smallest difference from participant strength to fusion result strength.

[Post-RoSaT] Gotenks
Distraction count: 0
I believe this resulting fusion was the best possible... because there were no distractions. Obviously, this is where my conjecture comes into play but in order to eliminate the distractions, Goten would now have to equal Trunks. This is something I'm perfectly happy with believing as he entered the RoSaT with far more motivation than Trunks and has been shown to hold a superior ability for strength gain (when compared to Trunks).


The added bonus of following this belief/system is that a "Gohan + Goku" fusion wouldn't be the same as a "Goku + Vegeta" fusion, allowing Gogeta to be much stronger than the theorized Gogeta placements most people have.

But... C^1 = C... and C^0 = 1.

 

[Cell]

But... C^1 = C... and C^0 = 1.

...which would only be a problem if C = 1. Hence my example of using "2". Though, good point, I probably should've clarified that.

When there's 0 distractions you basically end up with "2A x F", the best possible result.

 

[ahill1]

Oh yeah you specified you use C as 2. I got things mixed cuz I overlooked the fact that the C^D is the divisor/factor, so how bigger it is, lower the result.

I'll try it with my numbers.

 

[ahill1]

But... C^1 = C... and C^0 = 1.

...which would only be a problem if C = 1. Hence my example of using "2". Though, good point, I probably should've clarified that.

When there's 0 distractions you basically end up with "2A x F", the best possible result.

Only a doubt: you do have Goten & Trunks post RoSaT barely above themselves pre training, right? Since you've the constant as 2, then base Gotenks [post RoSaT] would be "only" about 2x stronger than base Gotenks [pre RoSaT]... how do you make that work?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Well, basically... as we're shown by Piccolo's doubt pre-fusion, [Post-RoSaT] Goten/Trunks haven't improved enough (in base) to garner a fusion result capable of defeating Buu. They fuse, Piccolo holds hope, etc etc...

So, [Post-RoSaT] Gotenks had a better resulting fusion than either of the Pre-RoSaT attempts...

My solution relies on this idea: the more in-sync and focused on fusing the participants are, the better the result.

With that in mind, I came to the conclusion that any distractions during the fusion were detremental to the result. As an example, here's my prefered fusion formula format:

2A x F
C ^ D

A: Strength of lowest participating fusee.
F: "Fusion multiplier" ...whatever you might need that to be.
C: A constant (personally I use 2) to be used in conjunction with...
D: The number of distractions present during the fusion dance.

And these would be my distractions during each displayed fusion:

[Pre-RoSaT] Gotenks

• Trunks must supress his power to match Goten

Distraction count: 1
A pretty good attempt but not the best possible result.

[Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks

• Trunks must supress his power to match Goten
• Goten must maintain SSJ
• Trunks must maintain SSJ

Distraction count: 3
The worst result of the 3 examples shown, due to the smallest difference from participant strength to fusion result strength.

[Post-RoSaT] Gotenks
Distraction count: 0
I believe this resulting fusion was the best possible... because there were no distractions. Obviously, this is where my conjecture comes into play but in order to eliminate the distractions, Goten would now have to equal Trunks. This is something I'm perfectly happy with believing as he entered the RoSaT with far more motivation than Trunks and has been shown to hold a superior ability for strength gain (when compared to Trunks).


The added bonus of following this belief/system is that a "Gohan + Goku" fusion wouldn't be the same as a "Goku + Vegeta" fusion, allowing Gogeta to be much stronger than the theorized Gogeta placements most people have.

I stopped reading at 2A X F C D and yelled ''NEEEEEERD''

 

[Cell]

Only a doubt: you do have Goten & Trunks post RoSaT barely above themselves pre training, right? Since you've the constant as 2, then base Gotenks [post RoSaT] would be "only" about 2x stronger than base Gotenks [pre RoSaT]... how do you make that work?

I have Goten improving by maybe 20%'ish and Trunks by 10%'ish. Results in about a 2.5x difference between the Gotenks'.

[Post-RoSaT] Gotenks doesn't need that much of a jump. He goes from below Fat Buu to beyond SSJ3 Goku... that's all.

Here's some really rough example numbers:

[Pre-RoSaT] Gotenks 10
Fat Buu 15
SSJ3 Goku 18
[Post-RoSaT] Gotenks 25

I could understand needing more of a gap there if you follow the belief that "[Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku"... but my personal preference, due to Piccolo's questioning/hesitance, is to go with "[Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks >~ SSJ3 Goku". But hey... opinions.

At the end of the day, how you want to employ that formula is up to you. You could always make the constant [C] smaller than 2 (though still greater than 1) if you needed more space to work with.

 

[Cell]

I stopped reading at 2A X F C D and yelled ''NEEEEEERD''

A shame, your opinion might've been worth someone's time if you had continued reading, been able to comprehend the information before you, and formed one.

 

[ahill1]

[Pre-RoSaT] Gotenks 10
Fat Buu 15
SSJ3 Goku 18
[Post-RoSaT] Gotenks 25

Something I've thought: Piccolo's note of "please, there be a miracle" was before he made note of them fusing without turning into SSJs and yet he was, like we all know, pretty excited about Gotenks' base power. If he didn't know they'd fuse as base and hoped for a miracle, then that means Gotenks base (post RoSaT) >> Gotenks SSJ (post/ piccolo's estimations), right? Doesn't that change the formula a bit (I didn't make calcs for this one, so I might be off).


Your formula worked pretty well with my numbers, I just had to increase the constant to 2.3 (yeah cool number lol) in order to make the fusion multiplier (F) larger (but still the same for both pre and post Rosat), all to have a better spacing between post base and pre SSJ. I could increase the F for post RoSaT Gotenks a bit (which I think it's fair) and don't change the C at all though.

 

[Cell]

[Pre-RoSaT] Gotenks 10
Fat Buu 15
SSJ3 Goku 18
[Post-RoSaT] Gotenks 25

Something I've thought: Piccolo's note of "please, there be a miracle" was before he made note of them fusing without turning into SSJs and yet he was, like we all know, pretty excited about Gotenks' base power. If he didn't know they'd fuse as base and hoped for a miracle, then that means Gotenks base (post RoSaT) >> Gotenks SSJ (post/ piccolo's estimations), right? Doesn't that change the formula a bit (I didn't make calcs for this one, so I might be off).

"Please, let there be a miracle" seems more like he's simply hoping they haven't wasted their time in there and that [Post-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks will be superior to [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks.

Your formula worked pretty well with my numbers, I just had to increase the constant to 2.3 (yeah cool number lol) in order to make the fusion multiplier (F) larger (but still the same for both pre and post Rosat), all to have a better spacing between post base and pre SSJ. I could increase the F for post RoSaT Gotenks a bit (which I think it's fair) and don't change the C at all though.

As much as we'd all love for it to be a simple, round number... sometimes that just isn't going to be the case. If the series had been planned out with all the math taken into consideration with each statement and implication... then maybe that'd be possible... but we all know that isn't how it was written.

I prefer keeping "F" constant just to make things as simple as possible... and not have to make up rules as to why it would change. It also makes Goku's ability to roughly predict the outcome more realistic. With "D" being the only variable, the whole thing feels more appropriate, in my opinion.

Just for testing's sake, I threw the formula at the levels you've presented in your PL topic... and basically found a formula that fit pretty well:
2A x 1100
4.1 ^ D

The real test of whether or not that formula is the right fit for you is when you test it on your Gohan+Goku fusion.

I tried it on your numbers as they are... and found it a pretty funny coincidence that SSJ Gokhan ends up equal to Buutenks. Could always justify that SSJ was all that fusion would get as Gohan had his SSJ transformations overwritten... I know Kaboom goes with something like that.

 

[Cell]

[Double Post]

 

[ahill1]

I prefer keeping "F" constant just to make things as simple as possible... and not have to make up rules as to why it would change. It also makes Goku's ability to roughly predict the outcome more realistic. With "D" being the only variable, the whole thing feels more appropriate, in my opinion.

Do you think SSJ Gotenks [pre RoSaT] ended up weaker than Goku's predictions? Goku was basing it off probably on how strong the Metamors got after fusing, and they most likely hadn't too much distractions as Gotenks SSJ pre RoSaT.

I prefer keeping "F" constant just to make things as simple as possible... and not have to make up rules as to why it would change. It also makes Goku's ability to roughly predict the outcome more realistic. With "D" being the only variable, the whole thing feels more appropriate, in my opinion.

Wow, thanks for fiding a formula for my 50x SSJ multiplier list (I assume it's that since it's the more recent one). The formula* I've came up with was for my 10x SSJ multiplier list** that I finished today (did some 10x lists before, but today I changed my Goten and Kid Trunks' placement).

*Formula =
2A x 180
2.3 ^ D


**Goten and Kid Trunks' power levels on my 10x SSJ list

Goten [pre RoSaT] 330,000,000
~SSJ 3,300,000,000
Kid Trunks [pre RoSaT] 340,000,000
~SSJ 3,400,000,000

Applying in the formula we'd have:

base Gotenks ~ 50,000,000,000 [would like to have him a bit lower, but if he ends up a good amount < Fat Boo, then it's all fine]
SSJ Gotenks ~ 100,000,000,000 [I have Goku SSJ3 at 90 billions, then 100 billions works just fine]


Post RoSaT, I have to bump up Goten and Trunks to 500,000,000 [a rather big increase, but still nothing compared to Gotenks' increase] and I manage to have base Gotenks around 180 billions, which is a whooping 1.8x gap compared to his pre RoSaT SSJ self.