The Captain's assortment of random numbers

[Captain Cadaver]

Upon ahill's request as part of the challenge thread, a battle power list of the manga from all the Z era.

Saiyan Arc

Raditz's arrival

Farmer - 5

Son Goku
~ Weighted - 334
~ Unweighted - 416
~ Kamehameha - 924

Piccolo
~ Weighted - 322
~ Unweighted - 408
~ Makankosappo - 1,330

Son Gohan
~ Normal - 1
~ Upset - 710
~ Enraged - 1,307

Muten Roshi
~ Normal - 139
~ Manly GAINZ - Plot

Kuririn - 206

Raditz
~ Full power - 1,250
~ Tail Grabbed - 1,000
~ Injured - 500

1 year training

Piccolo
~ Weighted - 329
~ Unweighted - 411

Son Gohan
~ Normal - 1
~ Potential Unleashed - 710
~ Oozaru - 7,100

Kuririn - 206

Tenshinhan - 250

Yamcha - 177

Chaozu - 152

Yajirobe - 162

Enma Daio - 3,100

Mr. Popo - 228

Kami - 275

Son Goku
~ Weighted - 334
~ Post Snake Way Run - 1,100

Kaio-Sama - 3,500

Bubbles - 1,000

Saiyan battle

Son Gohan
~ Suppressed - 981
~ Full Power - 1,200
~ Enraged - 2,525
~ Masenko - 2,800
~ Post-Nappa battle - 1,320
~ Enraged - 3,300
~ Fatigued - 594
~ Oozaru - 5,940

Piccolo
~ Suppressed - 1,220
~ Full Power - 2,500

Kuririn
~ Suppressed - 1,083
~ Full power - 1,770
~ Kakusandan - 10,620
~ Fatigued - 495
~ Genki-Dama - 20,000

Yamcha - 1,480

Tenshinhan
~ Full power - 1,830
~ 1 arm, tired - 915
~ Kikoho - 3,050

Chaozu
~ Full power - 610
~ Yamcha memeing 2: Electric Nappaloo - 2,745

Son Goku
~ Initial - 5,000
~ Full power - 8,010
~ Kaioken x2 - 16,020
~ Kaioken x3 - 24,030
~ Kaioken x4 - 32,040
~ Fatigued - 4,005
~ Fatigued Kaioken - 8,010
~ Genki-Dama - 50,000

Yajirobe - 970

Saibaimen
~ Normal - 1,200
~ Yamcha Meme Time - 2,400

Nappa
~ Little effort - 4,000
~ Full power - 7,500

Vegeta
~ Initial - 14,400
~ More effort - 17,100
~ Full power - 18,000
~ Gyarikku Ho - 24,300
~ Injured by Kamehameha - 6,000
~ Post-Power Ball - 4,500
~ Oozaru - 45,000
~ Tail Cut - 3,600
~ Injured by Genki-Dama - 1,125

Freeza Arc

Initial conflict

Son Gohan
~ Suppressed - 50
~ Full power - 1,500
~ Enraged - 6,000
~ Potential Unlocked - 14,000

Kuririn
~ Suppressed - 50
~ Weighted, full power - 1,500
~ Unweighted - 1,875
~ Potential Unlocked - 13,000

Namekian Farmers
~ Suppressed - 1,000
~ Full power - 3,000

Muri - 5,000

Son Goku (Healed) - 10,000

Vegeta
~ Suppressed - 16,000
~ Full Power - 24,000
~ Post-Zenkai - 30,000

Freeza Soldiers - 2,000

Appule
~ Base - 2,800
~ Prophet Appule - Makes Vegetto his skeet slave

Cui - 18,000

Dodoria
~ Full power - 22,000
~ Loss of Shouki/Yuuki - 20,000

Zarbon
~ Bishonen Fuccboi - 23,000
~ Loss of Shouki/Yuuki - 21,000
~ Hardcore Bara Mode - 29,900

Freeza
~ Suppressed - 371,000
~ Full power - 530,000

Ginyu Tokusentai

Son Gohan
~ Full power - 14,000
~ Healed - 35,000

Kuririn
~ Full power - 13,000
~ Healed - 32,500

Vegeta
~ Full power - 30,000
~ Healed - 50,000
~ Further powered up - 250,000

Son Goku
~ Suppressed - 5,000
~ Bursts of Ki - 60,000
~ Powered up against Ginyu - 75,000
~ Full power - 90,000
~ Kaioken x2 - 180,000
~ Ginyu's Body - 9,000

Dende
~ Initial - 10
~ Potential Unleashed - 1,500

Nail
~ Suppressed - 4,200
~ Full power - 42,000

Gurd - 10,000

Reacoom - 40,000

Jheese - 40,000

Butta - 40,000

Ginyu
~ Initial - 60,000
~ Full power - 120,000
~ Goku's body - 23,000

Freeza
~ Suppressed - 371,000
~ Full power - 530,000

Battle with Freeza

Son Gohan
~ Full power - 200,000
~ Enraged - 1,000,000
~ Healed - 1,050,000
~ Bakuretsu Ranma - 1,750,000
~ Fatigued - 300,000

Kuririn - 75,000

Vegeta
~ Full power - 500,000
~ Post-Zenkai - 2,375,000

Piccolo
~ Weighted - 100,800
~ Unweighted - 126,000
~ Fused with Nail, Weighted - 1,260,000
~ Fused with Nail, Unweighted - 1,575,000

Dende - 1,500

Son Goku
~ Initial - 2,750,000
~ Full power - 3,000,000
~ Kaioken x10 - 30,000,000
~ Kaioken x20 - 60,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 150,000,000

Freeza
~ 1st form - 530,000
~ 2nd form - 1,060,000
~ 2nd form, powered up - 1,200,000
~ 2nd form, full power - 1,440,000
~ 3rd form - 1,890,000
~ True form, initial - 2,362,500
~ True form, powered up against Vegeta - 2,700,000
~ True form, powered up against Goku - 2,880,000
~ No Hands - 3,600,000
~ 50% - 72,000,000
~ 70% - 100,800,000
~ 100% - 144,000,000
~ Fatigued - 120,000,000

Cell Arc

Special Chapter - Story of Trunks, the last Z-Warrior

Trunks
~ Base - 57,200
~ Super Saiyan - 2,960,000
~ Base (3 years later) - 3,575,000
~ Super Saiyan (3 years later) - 178,750,000

Son Gohan
~ Base - 3,300,000
~ Super Saiyan - 165,000,000

Artificial Human #17
~ 40% - 147,200,000
~ 100% - 368,000,000

Artificial Human #18 - 296,000,000

Goku's Return

Son Gohan - 1,050,000

Kuririn - 78,750

Piccolo
~ Weighted - 2,520,000
~ Unweighted - 3,150,000

Vegeta - 3,150,000

Yamcha - 29,600

Tenshinhan - 73,200

Chaozu - 12,200

Trunks
~ Base - 3,575,000
~ Super Saiyan - 178,750,000

Son Goku
~ Base - 3,900,000
~ Super Saiyan - 195,000,000

Mecha Freeza
~ 50% - 75,600,000
~ Unseen 100% - 151,200,000

King Cold - 90,000,000

Artificial Human Battle

Son Goku
~ Base - 5,400,000
~ Super Saiyan - 270,000,000
~ Base, Heart Virus - 4,500,000
~ Super Saiyan, Heart Virus - 225,000,000
~ Super Saiyan, increased Heart Virus - 150,000,000
~ Super Saiyan, post-Kamehameha - 75,000,000

Son Gohan - 5,355,000

Piccolo
~ Suppressed - 20,160,000
~ Weighted, full power - 201,600,000
~ Unweighted - 252,000,000

Kuririn - 5,250,000

Tenshinhan - 4,575,000

Yamcha - 3,700,000

Chaozu - 14,640

Vegeta
~ Base - 5,670,000
~ Super Saiyan - 283,500,000
~ Super Saiyan, Ki lost - 255,150,000
~ Super Saiyan, Big Bang Attack - 318,937,500
~ Super Saiyan, post-Big Bang Attack - 204,120,000

Trunks
~ Base - 26,812,500
~ Super Saiyan - 268,125,000

Dr. Gero
~ Initial - 200,000,000
~ Yamcha's Ki - 203,700,000
~ Vegeta's Ki - 205,000,000
~ Piccolo's Ki - 220,000,000

Artificial Human #19
~ Initial - 180,000,000
~ Kamehameha Absorbed - 195,000,000
~ Goku's Ki - 202,500,000
~ Vegeta's Ki - 230,850,000

Artificial Human #18
~ Initial - 296,000,000
~ Full power - 400,000,000

Artificial Human #17 - 460,000,000

Cell's aim for Perfection

Piccolo
~ Post-Kami, Weighted - 378,000,000
~ Unweighted - 472,500,000
~ Gekiretsu Kodan - 1,417,500,000

Tenshinhan
~ Full power - 4,575,000
~ Shin Kikoho - 2,745,000,000

Vegeta
~ Base, post-Rosat - 70,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2nd Grade - 5,250,000,000
~ Final Flash - 10,500,000,000

Trunks
~ Base, post-Rosat - 66,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,300,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2nd Grade - 4,950,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3rd Grade - 12,375,000,000

Son Goku
~ Base, post-Rosat - 414,000,000
~ 50% Super Saiyan - 10,350,000,000
~ Mastered Super Saiyan - 20,700,000,000

Artificial Human #18 - 400,000,000

Artificial Human #17 - 460,000,000

Artificial Human #16 - 2,100,000,000

Cell
~ Initial - 290,000,000
~ Post-absorptions - 2,175,000,000
~ 2nd form - 3,480,000,000
~ 2nd form, full power - 4,350,000,000
~ Perfect form, fake ki - 4,785,000,000
~ Perfect form, real Ki - 8,700,000,000

Cell Games

Son Goku
~ Base - 414,000,000
~ 50% Super Saiyan - 10,350,000,000
~ Full Power Super Saiyan - 20,700,000,000
~ Shunkan Ido Kamehameha - 22,770,000,000
~ Fatigued - 6,900,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Base - 462,000,000
~ Full Power Super Saiyan - 23,100,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 46,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 (Burst of Rage) - 61,600,000,000

Vegeta
~ Base - 210,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 10,500,000,000

Trunks
~ Base - 207,900,000
~ Super Saiyan - 10,395,000,000

Piccolo
~ Weighted - 6,552,000,000
~ Unweighted - 8,190,000,000

Kuririn - 5,250,000

Tenshinhan - 4,575,000

Yamcha - 3,700,000

Mr. Satan - 6.95

Cell
~ Initial - 10,440,000,000
~ Powered up - 21,750,000,000
~ Real Speed - 22,837,500,000
~ Full Power - 34,800,000,000
~ Power Weighted Perfect form - 41,760,000,000
~ Super Perfect form - 46,980,000,000

Cell Jr. - 11,600,000,000

Trunks' Return to the Future

Trunks
~ Base - 207,900,000
~ Super Saiyan - 10,395,000,000
~ Base, 3 years later - 311,850,000
~ Super Saiyan, 3 years later - 15,592,500,000

Artificial Human #17 - 368,000,000

Artificial Human #18 - 296,000,000

Cell - 435,000,000

Boo Arc

Great Saiyaman Adventures and Budokai training

Son Gohan
~ Base - 448,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 22,400,000,000

Son Goten
~ Base - 400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 20,000,000,000

Trunks
~ Base - 400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 20,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ Base - 512,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 25,600,000,000

Videl - 7

25th Tenkaichi Budokai, Babidi's Spaceship and Boo's Rampage

Son Goku
~ Base - 640,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 32,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 64,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 256,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ Base - 512,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 25,600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 51,200,000,000
~ Majin Super Saiyan - 32,000,000,000
~ Majin Super Saiyan 2 - 64,000,000,000
~ Final Explosion - 256,000,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Base - 448,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 22,400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 44,800,000,000
~ Post-Z-Sword - 1,904,000,000
~ Super Saiyan, post-Z-Sword - 95,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2, post-Z-Sword - 190,400,000,000

Son Goten
~ Base - 440,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 22,000,000,000

Trunks
~ Base - 445,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 22,250,000,000

Piccolo
~ Weighted - 7,560,000,000
~ Unweighted - 9,450,000,000

Kuririn - 5,250,000

Artificial Human #18 - 400,000,000

Shin - 300,000,000

Kibito - 160,000,000

Videl - 8

Mr. Satan - 6.85

Jewel - 6.7

Pintar - 6.8

Kilah - 6.1

Mighty Mask - 6

Gotenks
~ Base - 105,600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 264,000,000,000

Spopovich
~ Initial - 7.7
~ Powered up - 22
~ Full Power - 1,650
~ Lord :bitch - > All

Yamu
~ Full power - 1,700
~ Bottom Bitch Yamu - > Prophet Appule

Pui Pui - 320,000,000

Yakon - 650,000,000

Dabura - 50,000,000,000

Majin Boo
~ Initial - 45,000,000,000
~ Powered up - 65,000,000,000
~ Second power up - 70,000,000,000
~ Enraged - 200,000,000,000

Evil Boo and Fusion

Goten
~ Base, post-Rosat - 500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 25,000,000,000

Trunks
~ Base, post-Rosat - 500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 25,000,000,000

Gotenks
~ Base - 312,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 781,250,000,000
~ Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack - 937,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 3,125,000,000,000

Gohan
~ Base - 1,904,000,000
~ Potential Partially released - 1,000,000,000,000
~ Ultimate Gohan - 4,000,000,000,000

Tenshinhan
~ Full Power - 5,032,500
~ Shin Kikoho - 3,019,500,000

Chaozu - 14,640

Son Goku
~ Base - 640,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 32,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 256,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ Base - 640,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 32,000,000,000

Vegetto
~ Base - 6,400,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 160,000,000,000,000

Gogeta (Hypothetical)
~ Base - 1,280,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,200,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 6,400,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 12,800,000,000,000

Shin - 300,000,000

Kibito - 160,000,000

Kibitoshin - 55,200,000,000

Majin Boo - 200,000,000,000

Good Boo - 80,000,000,000

Pure Evil Boo - 120,000,000,000

Evil Boo
~ Initial - 320,000,000,000
~ More effort - 880,000,000,000
~ Full power - 2,880,000,000,000
~ Gotenks Boo - 6,014,450,000,000
~ Piccolo Boo - 2,899,450,000,000
~ Gohan Boo - 6,939,450,000,000
~ Buff Boo - 3,200,000,000,000

5,000,000 years before Age - Boo's Rampage

Shin - 250,000,000

North Kaioshin - 640,000,000

West Kaioshin - 630,000,000

South Kaioshin - 2,960,000,000,000

Dai Kaioshin - 100,000,000,000

Majin Boo
~ Pure Boo - 240,000,000,000
~ South Kaioshin Boo - 3,200,000,000,000
~ Fat Boo - 200,000,000,000

Battle with Pure Boo

Son Goku
~ Base - 640,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 32,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 64,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 256,000,000,000
~ SS3, Losing Ki - 200,000,000,000
~ Genki-Dama - 220,000,000,000
~ Chou Genki-Dama - 11,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ Base - 640,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 32,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 64,000,000,000

Good Boo - 80,000,000,000

Kibitoshin - 55,200,000,000

Pure Boo
~ Initial - 48,000,000,000
~ Full power - 240,000,000,000

28th Tenkaichi Budokai

Son Goku
~ Base - 220,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 550,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 1,100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 2,200,00,000,000

Vegeta
~ Base - 220,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 550,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 1,100,000,000,000

Son Gohan - 4,000,000,000,000

Son Goten
~ Base - 600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 30,000,000,000

Trunks
~ Base - 600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 30,000,000,000

Pan - 650,000,000

Mr. Boo - 80,000,000,000

Oob
~ Normal - 5.5
~ Enraged - 240,000,000,000

Piccolo
~ Weighted - 22,680,000,000
~ Unweighted - 28,350,000,000

Kuririn - 5,250,000

Tenshinhan - 5,215,000

Yamcha - 3,700,000

Chaozu - 14,640

---

A few afterwords of what I consider will be main questions.

Q: "Why aren't the gaps like this. Your gaps aren't as good as mine."
A: Toriyama never put much thought into battle powers beyond A > B, so I don't see why I should. Gaps for certain feats were never consistent.

Q: "Why are Dende, Spopovich and Yamu so high?"
A: The Flight Aura argument. We clearly see characters such as BoZ Goku, Raditz and Saiyan Arc Gohan present no flight aura when moving at full speed, yet Goku doing so after Kaio's training would suggest it wasn't just an artistic change. Therefore, I'd say a character needs a battle power of at least 1.5k to have a visible flight aura.

Q: "Why does Vegetto have a 50x SSJ multiplier and Gotenks have a 2.5x one?"
A: Needed to give Vegetto a high multiplier to line up with GT scaling in case I ever get challenged to do that list. I don't see a reason to have a Manga and GT scaling version of the character, given manga-wise he was unmatched and what number I give him is thereby irrelevant.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

No-one should ever be questioned why lord :bitch :bitch :bitch is high.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You still follow some gap logic, don't you? I mean, you disregarded Freeza's 120mil for the sake of a number much closer to Goku's 150mil.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

You still follow some gap logic, don't you? I mean, you disregarded Freeza's 120mil for the sake of a number much closer to Goku's 150mil.

Well yes, there is some semblance of internal logic when necessary. However, I find the idea of trying to place things such as clear gap minimums for feats to be entirely pointless when most examples of such tend to be contradicted within the arcs they're used by another feat.

 

[Animelover5487]

I challenge you to make a.PL list for Super!

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I challenge you to make a.PL list for Super!

Once it's over, maybe, though likely only for the manga. Not going to bother touching the anime for now when it contradicts it's scaling with each new episode. 2

 

[ahill1]

Good list. But regarding the usage of the 10x multiplier for androids arc SSJ, it's worth noting that Gero also stated that if he absorbed suppressed Piccolo's energy again he would also win against Vegeta. How do you make that work?

Besides, shouldn't Spopovich and Yamu having a flight aura while BoZ Goku and Piccolo didn't have one just show us how the "flight aura" isn't consistent in showing up how strong a character is? I doubt Spopovich would be kind of struggling against Videl if he were stronger than freaking Raditz, and even if he were holding back against her, holding back that much should be uncalled for imo. Moreover, we see that Ultimate Gohan for example doesn't have a flight aura when he is on his way to battle Boo, yet I doubt anyone would place Ultimate Gohan there, even though he was still supressed, below Beginning of Z Goku and Piccolo.

Androids saga Piccolo over 90% of SSJ Vegeta's powers? Don't you think that's a bit too much? It was clear all the SSJs were in their own tier of power and even the weakest of them -- future Trunks -- was strong enough that Piccolo and Kami would find using him as a measuring stick a better way to build up the androids strength than Piccolo.

Dr. Gero stated that #19 increased him maximum rating by a lot after absorbing Goku's KMHMH, yet he went from 180 to 195, which isn't even a 1.1x increase? By that logic #17 would be A LOT stronger than #18.

But other than that, good list.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Good list. But regarding the usage of the 10x multiplier for androids arc SSJ, it's worth noting that Gero also stated that if he absorbed suppressed Piccolo's energy again he would also win against Vegeta. How do you make that work?

Could be that Piccolo gradually became less suppressed at that point as to not get caught off guard. I do concede Gero's estimations aren't 100% accurate, given how he believe #19 would stomp SSJ Goku. However, I'd prefer to go with this piece of evidence rather than ignore it when it falls in line with the humans showing up when Piccolo said to only do so if they'd be of some use. I also doubt that their self considered use was non-battle related either, considering Chaozu was left behind.

Besides, shouldn't Spopovich and Yamu having a flight aura while BoZ Goku and Piccolo didn't have one just show us how the "flight aura" isn't consistent in showing up how strong a character is? I doubt Spopovich would be kind of struggling against Videl if he were stronger than freaking Raditz, and even if he were holding back against her, holding back that much should be uncalled for imo.

It seems somewhat consistent in most arcs, which is why I went with it. There are two examples of it seeming to indicate strength rather than just being artistic flare.

1. Gohan presents no flight aura when flying to face Oozaru Vegeta, with his battle power at this point being below 1.5k, whereas Goku's flight aura was on full display when flying back from Kaio's.
2. In the example with Spopovich and Yamu, we also have Kibito and Gohan fully displaying flight auras whereas the infinitely weaker Videl does not.

In regard to Videl, the fact that Goku and Vegeta make it apparent Spopovich could control and suppress his Ki could imply he was heavily suppressed the whole fight, seeing as how he needed to damage but not kill his opponents. I don't believe Videl breaking his neck would outright disprove this, as with him being fully aware he could snap it back into place, he most likely didn't care about his suppressed level causing him to gain unnecessary damage.

Moreover, we see that Ultimate Gohan for example doesn't have a flight aura when he is on his way to battle Boo, yet I doubt anyone would place Ultimate Gohan there, even though he was still supressed, below Beginning of Z Goku and Piccolo.

That would be assuming he was flying at full speed, however. Given SSJ Gotenks' speed feat, I doubt there was much reason for Gohan to waste some of his Ki flying at full speed when he'd arrive at the battlefield in seconds anyway.

Androids saga Piccolo over 90% of SSJ Vegeta's powers? Don't you think that's a bit too much? It was clear all the SSJs were in their own tier of power and even the weakest of them -- future Trunks -- was strong enough that Piccolo and Kami would find using him as a measuring stick a better way to build up the androids strength than Piccolo.

Kuririn's statement implies Piccolo was close to the SSJs, so I don't see a problem as long as he ends up below their powers.

Dr. Gero stated that #19 increased him maximum rating by a lot after absorbing Goku's KMHMH, yet he went from 180 to 195, which isn't even a 1.1x increase? By that logic #17 would be A LOT stronger than #18.

He was most likely talking in terms of an additive amount, so increasing his max power by 15 mil would indeed be a large increase. Moreover, it would simply be difficult for me to place #19 any higher when considering his peak would still be stomp tier for a drained SSJ Vegeta, yet only slightly less of a drain would place Vegeta below Gero.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

1. Chaozu's self destruct << Gohan's massenko << Tenshinhan's kikoho
I think you should lower Enraged Gohan and Piccolo, so that you have more room to
work with these. Personally, i have...
Piccolo: 2000
Enraged Gohan: 2100
Chaozu's explosion: 2200-2500
Massenko: 2800
Tri Beam: 3500

2. Why is the Namek elder stronger than the young ones who are specialized in combat?

3. There should be a bigger gap between Gurd and the versions of Gohan/Krillin he fought.
He could not see their moves despite having four eyes. I have him half Krillin's power at
most.

4. Tha gaps between Vegeta (zenkai)-Initial 4th Freeza-Goku (zenkai) are laughably small,
just to go with Daiz.

5. SSJ1 Gohan (z sword) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku is laughable.

6. Give Initial Fat Buu some credit. Gohan stated he'd need his full power to win.

7. Why is South Kai>SSJ3 Goku? Do you support any fantheory about why he didn't pull out the sword?

8. You did not need to give Vegeta/Goku those huge gains between Buu-EOZ, unless you want to
go with DBS/DBGT bs. It is not unreasonable to say Ubb could not bring out his full potential
(Kid Buu's power) before training with Goku.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

1. Chaozu's self destruct << Gohan's massenko << Tenshinhan's kikoho
I think you should lower Enraged Gohan and Piccolo, so that you have more room to
work with these. Personally, i have...
Piccolo: 2000
Enraged Gohan: 2100
Chaozu's explosion: 2200-2500
Massenko: 2800
Tri Beam: 3500

Having Piccolo that close to the humans would seem quite off. I don't see a reason to have a large gap between the three amplified techniques, considering Nappa's reaction was comparable for each of them.

2. Why is the Namek elder stronger than the young ones who are specialized in combat?

His statement about showing Freeza the true power of the Namekians would seem to imply he's at least above the farmers. Some translations have it as "pride" rather than "power", but either way it implies he'd at least do something different from the other fodder.

3. There should be a bigger gap between Gurd and the versions of Gohan/Krillin he fought.
He could not see their moves despite having four eyes. I have him half Krillin's power at
most.

It's pretentiousness like this I made note of in the notes. Ginyu believing it'd take a ~60k power to do what Goku did to Butta (ie. speedblitz him) shows just how reliable gap minimums and the like are.

4. Tha gaps between Vegeta (zenkai)-Initial 4th Freeza-Goku (zenkai) are laughably small,just to go with Daiz.

So are those between characters at the 23rd TB going with what numbers we're give for Roshi, Kuririn, Piccolo and the like, yet Toriyama still went with them.

5. SSJ1 Gohan (z sword) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku is laughable.

Considering Goku didn't outright state Gohan stood no chance against Boo and just doubt him being able to win, I'd say not.

6. Give Initial Fat Buu some credit. Gohan stated he'd need his full power to win.

He seemed taken aback by Boo's initial appearance and Dabura scoffed at him as well. Whilst you could say Dabura can't sense Ki, that seems inconsistent with him being able to discern the top 3 fighters amongst Shin's clique.

7. Why is South Kai>SSJ3 Goku? Do you support any fantheory about why he didn't pull out the sword?

Whatever your theory is, most likely. South Kaioshin providing enough of a boost to bring Pure Boo above Evil Boo's power, even if taking into account adverse effects the Kaioshin have on him, would seem laughable if he were still below SSJ Gohan based on a vague statement regarding "numerous Kaioshin", not "all". Shin also noted "somehow got absorbed" implying it'd be inconceivable that one of South's strength would be absorbed by Boo.

8. You did not need to give Vegeta/Goku those huge gains between Buu-EOZ, unless you want to go with DBS/DBGT bs. It is not unreasonable to say Ubb could not bring out his full potential (Kid Buu's power) before training with Goku.

They were planning on competing in a Budokai with Mr. Boo in it and were likely still pertaining to the no SSJ rule, so yes it is.
Nothing suggests Oob displayed anything other than Pure Boo's strength, especially with Goku's comments on him being exactly who he believed as well. The idea of Goku not gaining much power after the Boo Arc seems ridiculous as well with Toriyama noting about him always seeking greater strength and Vegeta noting he'd soon surpass Goku in the Kanzenban edition would show they hadn't reached their peak just yet. All that considered, I doubt Goku would find much worth in training Oob if he was only planning to bring him to his Pure Boo level, especially with the Daizenshuu statement that Oob could become a warrior the likes of which had never been seen if he lived up to his full potential.

 

[ahill1]

Points taken in everything, except those that I'd still argue against:

"Earthlings being that strong due to Gero's statement":

Yeah, Gero's radar was shown not to be consistent in a lot of his power estimations, like believing Goku and Vegeta were still within manageable parameters to #19, yet the battle totally dictating otherwise. But I don't agree that they showing up three years later would indicate they reached such plateau of strength. We see that Kuririn, who should be above Tenshinhan, isn't confident at all while on his way to battle those machines, stating that he isn't a SSJ, and being rather not-excited to the upcoming battle:

So, this lack of confidence should carry over to someone weaker than Kuririn as well, with Ten's statement regarding Chaozu being probably just his concernement towards his best friend... as we saw, Tenshinhan also suggested Chaozu to not take part into the battle against the Saiyans as well, even though Chaozu back then was way more relevant to Raditz than Tenshinhan was to SSJ Trunks, both whom were their benchmarks:

Moreover, I'd argue that in a straight battle -- not accounting for their techniques -- the earthlings should be as useless according to the numbers you have for them as they'd be if they were at the low millions. 20 millions is just as irrelevant to someone whose battle power should fall at around 200,000,000 as someone whose battle power is around 2 millions or, heck, even around the middle-thousands. So if someone wants to take them showing up into the battlefield at face value and argue that it shows they are confident in a staright up battle, they might as well argue they are at around [Mecha saga] SSJ Trunks, imo.


Now regarding the Spopovich and the flight aura argument, I'd say that Akira Toriyama was just not as used in displying aura to the characters in the Saiyans saga, and since such became more of a common trend in the Freeza and Cells saga, displaying flight auras to "even-though-weak-characters" would be justified. Granted that Ultimate Gohan wasn't totally reveled up when flying at the battle field, as they believed the thought of him fighting Super Boo was folly. But he still ought to have using a significant amount of power considering Piccolo stated there was a rather powerful chi approaching:


Chapter: 497 (DBZ 303), P1.5
Context: as Gohan approaches Boo and co.
Piccolo: “It’s a str-strong ki…! I can’t tell who it is…Is it some new enemy…!?”


Heck, Goku was even surprised by Vegeta's ability of following him when not even exerting himself, and neither had an aura there. Granted that both weren't totally reveled up there, but considering Goku was surprised that Vegeta could do it and even made a point to mention it, it's fair to say that Nappa couldn't do the same as well, since if he could, then being somewhat surprised that Vegeta could do it wouldn't make any sense:

It's just a not so consistent thing to conclude Spopovich and Yamu are stronger than Raditz imo.

As for him being able to suppress, Vegeta marely stated he suppressed the power of his attack. You can have an X power and use X/2 to attack. As we see, even Raditz (who can't suppress his chi) can choose how much he uses when attacking):


Chapter: 199 (DBZ 5), P14.1-5
Raditz: “But it’s just a matter of time before you die…I’ll be slowly making my attacks stronger.”
Piccolo: “To think that our levels would be so different…!
Raditz: “The other two Saiyan survivors besides me…Have battle powers higher than mine.”


I don't deny Spopovich was holding back against Videl though, as this latter could barely keep his eyes open when they weren't really flying at a high speed, yet it seems Spopo could fly even significantly faster than that, but I'd still disagree he was using just a tiny fraction of his power. I'd go with something like this, honestly:

Videl - 9
Spopovich (initial) 8.3 ---> Videl was overwhelming him
Spopovich (more power) - 11 ---> enough to outclass Videl
Spopovich (full power) - 20


Also, what withheld stated about "Tenshinhan's Kikoho >> Chaozu's suicidal attack" makes sense imo. Piccolo saw how Nappa was barely damage upon withstanding Chaozu's suicidal attack and yet even wondered whether he was immortal when the Kikoho failed. I still don't think you must have the Masenko as above the Kikoho though (as Vegeta hadn't his scouter when Tenshinhan launched the Kikoho), so having Piccolo as low as withheld indicated might not be warranted.

 

[Papasmurf]

~ Lord :bitch - > All

Yamu
~ Full power - 1,700
~ Bottom Bitch Yamu - > Prophet Appule

My nigga

 

[Papasmurf]

Now regarding the Spopovich and the flight aura argument, I'd say that Akira Toriyama was just not as used in displying aura to the characters in the Saiyans saga, and since such became more of a common trend in the Freeza and Cells saga, displaying flight auras to "even-though-weak-characters" became more of a common trend. Granted that Ultimate Gohan wasn't totally reveled up when flying at the battle field, as they believed the thought of him fighting Super Boo was folly. But he still ought to have using a significant amount of power considering Piccolo stated there was a rather powerful chi approaching:


Chapter: 497 (DBZ 303), P1.5
Context: as Gohan approaches Boo and co.
Piccolo: “It’s a str-strong ki…! I can’t tell who it is…Is it some new enemy…!?”


Heck, Goku was even surprised by Vegeta's ability in following him when not even exerting himself and neither had an aura. Granted that both weren't totally reveled up there, but considering Goku was surprised that Vegeta could do it and even made a point to mention it, it's fair to say that Nappa coulodn't do the same as well, since if he could, then being somewhat surprised that Vegeta could do it wouldn't make any sense:

They did have an aura when they took off:

 

[withheldforprivacy]

1. Having Piccolo that close to the humans would seem quite off. I don't see a reason to have a large gap between the three amplified techniques, considering Nappa's reaction was comparable for each of them.

2. Considering Goku didn't outright state Gohan stood no chance against Boo and just doubt him being able to win, I'd say not.

3. They were planning on competing in a Budokai with Mr. Boo in it and were likely still pertaining to the no SSJ rule, so yes it is.
Nothing suggests Oob displayed anything other than Pure Boo's strength, especially with Goku's comments on him being exactly who he believed as well. The idea of Goku not gaining much power after the Boo Arc seems ridiculous as well with Toriyama noting about him always seeking greater strength and Vegeta noting he'd soon surpass Goku in the Kanzenban edition would show they hadn't reached their peak just yet. All that considered, I doubt Goku would find much worth in training Oob if he was only planning to bring him to his Pure Boo level, especially with the Daizenshuu statement that Oob could become a warrior the likes of which had never been seen if he lived up to his full potential.

1. Then lower humans too. I have Krillin at 1400 and Tenshinhan at 1600.

2. Goku never said Gohan would fight as SSJ1.

3. Ubb was already as strong as Kid Buu, but he couldn't bring it out, except in that final kiai. Makes more sense than giving
Goku 400x gains.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

1. Then lower humans too. I have Krillin at 1400 and Tenshinhan at 1600.

Unless you have Kuririn making significant gains from image training in the spaceship, that wouldn't work, seeing as how his weighted level on Namek was already roughly 1.5k.

2. Goku never said Gohan would fight as SSJ1.

Which is why his SS2 level is still below Boo's.

3. Ubb was already as strong as Kid Buu, but he couldn't bring it out, except in that final kiai. Makes more sense than giving
Goku 400x gains.

Dragon Ball gains make little sense in general and having them this strong makes far more sense in participating in a Budokai featuring Mr. Boo with the likes of Vegeta being set on winning if they were only slightly above their Boo Arc selves.

 

[ahill1]

Now regarding the Spopovich and the flight aura argument, I'd say that Akira Toriyama was just not as used in displying aura to the characters in the Saiyans saga, and since such became more of a common trend in the Freeza and Cells saga, displaying flight auras to "even-though-weak-characters" became more of a common trend. Granted that Ultimate Gohan wasn't totally reveled up when flying at the battle field, as they believed the thought of him fighting Super Boo was folly. But he still ought to have using a significant amount of power considering Piccolo stated there was a rather powerful chi approaching:


Chapter: 497 (DBZ 303), P1.5
Context: as Gohan approaches Boo and co.
Piccolo: “It’s a str-strong ki…! I can’t tell who it is…Is it some new enemy…!?”


Heck, Goku was even surprised by Vegeta's ability in following him when not even exerting himself and neither had an aura. Granted that both weren't totally reveled up there, but considering Goku was surprised that Vegeta could do it and even made a point to mention it, it's fair to say that Nappa coulodn't do the same as well, since if he could, then being somewhat surprised that Vegeta could do it wouldn't make any sense:

They did have an aura when they took off:

Hmm, well noticed, though it still eventually disappeared. The cases of an aura disappearing are more oftenly shown when a character is powering up (in which the aura is present when they are undergoing a power up yet afterwards they lose it)... I think one could argue that the Ginyus lost their aura when they were halfway to get to Vegeta, Gohan and Kuririn as it doesn't seem they had one when landing there, yet we saw the aura was present as soon as they went chasing for him:

Spoiler

Spoiler

As we saw in the previous page Vegeta and co. still had their aura when landing, so they probably didn't lose it. Might be that Ginyu and co. lessened up a bit their speed when they realized they were already catching up, dunno.


What do you think about the aura when flying? Do you think it shows a consistent level of power? Sometimes it's even used to denote which plateau of power the characters are rather than being used to show that those characters are weaker than past ones who displayed an aura, as we see that Gohan and Kuririn did display an aura when reveling up against Gurd yet Imperfect Cell hadn't an aura when he fought Piccolo in Ginger Town. Granted that it was battle aura and not flight aura, but it was still aura nonetheless, so I'd argue that Spopo's aura being present could at most mean he was powerful enough to travel at high speeds whereas Videl wasn't, in which such would simply show he was way stronger than Videl rather than stronger than Raditz.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Unless you have Kuririn making significant gains from image training in the spaceship, that wouldn't work, seeing as how his weighted level on Namek was already roughly 1.5k.

Kuririn does not get the same boost as Goku by taking his weights off. He only wore a weighted shirt, whereas Goku also wore weighted
boots and wristbands. I have his unweighted Namek level at 1650.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Kuririn does not get the same boost as Goku by taking his weights off. He only wore a weighted shirt, whereas Goku also wore weighted
boots and wristbands. I have his unweighted Namek level at 1650.

The shirt is still the main contributor to the weighted training, so I don't see a reason to be so pessimistic about it's boost, especially when such things are pretty arbitrary anyway. Plus, you could assume that the humans' training gains being better than Goku's could be down to having heavier weighted clothing.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why Yajirobe > Half dead Vegeta? Vegeta beated him up...

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Why Yajirobe > Half dead Vegeta? Vegeta beated him up...

A simple oversight that I promptly corrected.