The effectiveness of the dance was the key to Gotenks's strength

[kriss-]

We are given no indication that the boys powered up hugely after training inside the Rosat, Piccolo doesn't notice a difference from them before and them now. In other-words, whatever increases they gained were probably minimal. To me, the effectiveness of how well they perform the dance determines how effective the results will be. We are given serious implications of this, such as the times that Gotenks turned into his fat or anorexic forms. Further-more, Piccolo makes a clear distinction in regards to how well they performed the fusion inside the Rosat. Akira Toriyama also put heavy emphasis on what is possible once one masters fusion completely, by being able to fuse with just Ha.

It probably had nothing to do with Gotenks training on his own -since he only achieved Super Saiyan 3 6 hours prior to Super Boo's arrival, or the boys becoming hugely different from before. It had more to do with how much better they got at fusion. They were capable of so much more inside the Rosat then they were before entering it, such as being able to transform into Super Saiyans after fusing, the Kamikaze Ghost's, et cetera.

Thoughts?

 

[Diamond Ryan]

It is definitely a possibility. The boys themselves obviously didn't surpass their Super Saiyan forms in base, but I don't really believe in the theory that little gains for the fusees will become huge gains for the fusion.

 

[kriss-]

Small increases individually resulting in larger increases for the product of the sum is another way of saying Goten + 1 Battle Power + Trunks + 1 Battle Power = Gotenks + 2 Battle Power. But this was only viable prior to entering the Rosat, there was something else going on other then just training that resulted in Gotenks making the increases he did.

Anyways, I don't think Gotenks was insanely powerful inside the Rosat either, he just finally lived up to the expectations that Goku had for him, because he finally mastered fusion and this was the actual predetermined expectation that Goku had. Prior to entering the Rosat, he was more-or-less, a work in progress.

Super Boo's initial battle power is what Gotenks fought as a Super Saiyan and we are given heavy implications that this battle power is only equal to Innocent Boo.

Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo (Full Power) >= Gotenks SSj Post-Rosat

 

[Diamond Ryan]

I think Piccolo said that the dance was perfect, so I agree that it wasn't just training, but also improving on the dance technique itself that powered him up so greatly.

 

[Tapion]

There is no implication that Super Buu(initial) is = Fat Buu.
In fact, SSj Gotenks is implied to be capable of defeating Fat Buu several times. For instance, Piccolo saying that Gotenks can't win because he has only 1 minute left, instead of saying that he simply couldn't win even if he had full time, and the fact that Piccolo said that Gotenks's ki was ''really incredible', implying that he already had some kind of expectation..

Goku tells Piccolo that Gotenks would be stronger than him
Piccolo expects that to be true.
Gotenks transforms into a SSj
Piccolo says that his ki is ''really'' incredible

 

[kriss-]

There are a-lot of indications that Super Boo (Initial) is the same as Fat Majin Boo. Evil Vegeta and myself have explained this to you several times over, yet for some reason, you just don't get it. Gotenks being called really incredible is a silly argument for you to construct, it leaves too much to be desired. Everything else following it is hopeful at best, and you're essentially giving Gotenks the benefit of the doubt without anything actually being proven to be true.

Super Boo being equal to Innocent Boo when he first appears is pretty much a fact. Gotenks SSj Post being around that battle power is a fact as well.

 

[Tapion]

There are a-lot of indications that Super Boo (Initial) is the same as Fat Majin Boo. Evil Vegeta and myself have explained this to you several times over, yet for some reason, you just don't get it. Gotenks being called really incredible is a silly argument for you to construct, it leaves too much to be desired. Everything else following it is hopeful at best, and you're essentially giving Gotenks the benefit of the doubt without anything actually being proven to be true.

Super Boo being equal to Innocent Boo when he first appears is pretty much a fact. Gotenks SSj Post being around that battle power is a fact as well.

You've never explained why Super Buu is as strong as Fat Buu. What we and Evil Vegeta were discussing was if Goten and Trunks were counting only on Buu's appearance or on his power when Goten stated that "he really has changed", JUST THAT. While you kept trying to be funny "hur-duh i'll mock the argument and won't provide evidence'' and that was true: you kept providing no valid evidence at all.

The fact that Piccolo didn't doubt Gotenks's chances until Super Buu appeared is pretty much a scream that Super Buu powered up.
The fact that Daizenshuu 2 states ''The evil Boo absorbed the Good Buu, powering up'' is also a flat-out statement that Super Buu was already stronger than Fat Buu once he was formed.

 

[kriss-]

Evil Vegeta tried to explain to you that nobody noticed a change in his Chi and Super Boo does not power-up until he is inside the Rosat, this only occurs when he is forced to in order to escape. There is no evidence that implies that he powered up.

All that that Daizenshuu statement means is that Super Boo powered up, but that doesn't mean that his superficial battle power was at that level from the start. The implies doesn't imply so, but the evidence does imply that he did receive a power-boost, but this isn't realized until the events inside the Rosat.

 

[Tapion]

No.

Daizenshuu says that:
473: Babidi announces that he will destroy Capsule Corporation.
474: Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 3 (1). Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs. Majin Buu.
475: Majin Buu murders Babidi.
476: Majin Buu recklessly destroys things on the Earth's surface.
477: Goku explains Fusion (2). Majin Buu builds a house. Goku returns to the Heavenly realm.
478: Goku teleports to the Kaioshin realm.
479: The Z Sword breaks. Elder Kaioshin appears (3). Gohan starts to have his power drawn above his limits.
480: The Fusion succeeds, and Gotenks appears (4).
481: Satan rises to defeat Majin Buu.
482: Super Gotenks appears.
483: Majin Buu heals a dog with a bad leg. Majin Buu promises Mister Satan that he won't do bad things anymore.
484: Satan is shot. Majin Buu's anger peaks.
485: From Majin Buu, an evil Majin Buu is born. The evil Majin Buu eats the good Majin Buu and powers up (5).

And then it shows a picture of Super Buu when he's first appeared. The statement is clear that Super Buu power-ups right after Grey Buu absorbs Good Buu.

 

[kriss-]

Nothing in there proves that Super Boo's superficial battle power surpassed Innocent Boo. All it really shows is that Super Boo definitely received a power-boost, and it is evident when he does his temporary power-burst. However, this wasn't a stationary increase, he went back down to Innocent Boo's battle power.

If you are going to try and construct a retort, at least use the Manga to support your claims. The guidebook is what is trying to make sense of the Manga, not the other way around.

 

[Tapion]

Nothing in there proves that Super Boo's superficial battle power surpassed Innocent Boo. All it really shows is that Super Boo definitely received a power-boost, and it is evidence when he does his temporary power-burst. However, this wasn't a stationary increase, he went back down to Innocent Boo's battle power.

If you are going to try and construct a retort, at least use the Manga to support your claims. The guidebook is what is trying to make sense of the Manga, not the other way around.

Daizenshuu was made to confirm and back up what the manga says.

Let's say that Super Buu performed a power burst. What's your proof that it was only temporary? When Super Buu powered up, Goku and Piccolo noticed his ki and none of them said anything like:

"His ki went down again..
"He really powered up a few seconds ago, but he is back to the level that it was before"

Nothing like that was said. I think that Toriyama would try to make clear that it was only temporary, but nothing is said.

 

[kriss-]

Incorrect, first of all. It is not the Mangas job to support the Daizenshuu, it's the other-way around.

Evil Vegeta and myself have already explained this to you countless times. I will not run in the same circle with you because you do not change your mind, ever. Once you make up your mind you will do whatever you can to try and prove it in some way, even if it doesn't make sense at all.

 

[Tapion]

Incorrect, first of all.

Evil Vegeta and myself have already explained this to you countless times. I will not run in the same circle with you because you do not change your mind, ever. Once you make up your mind you will do whatever you can to try and prove it in some way, even if it doesn't make sense at all.

You're saying that because you can't accept facts. You never proved me wrong once, i was discussing with Zoro whether Gotenks was still able to defeat Super Buu(initial) or not, and you kept laughing and provided no valid evidence. You just posted scans that didn't prove ANYTHING.

When Daizenshuu 2 says that Buu powered up, it shows below a picture of Super Buu in his very first appearance, in the end of Chapter 485;

Daizenshuu shows a close up of this picture of Buu, before his power burst.

 

[kriss-]

Nothing in the Manga suggests his battle power increased at that point.

Once again you're reaching.

 

[Tapion]

Nothing in the Manga suggests his battle power increased.

Once again you're reaching.

Except the fact that Piccolo is already alarmed before Buu performs his power burst. See the pic that i posted above
And again: Buu performed a power burst, you have absolutely no proof that it was only temporary. You're dodging the question and has no proof for you claims.

 

[kriss-]

Piccolo was surprised once he finally saw Super Boo for the first time as the dust clears.

Nothing in the original Manga determines that Super Boo's initial battle power far surpassed his previous battle power. At least not until he powers up temporarily. But even then, it's only a temporary power-burst because all the statements from other notable Chi sensors imply that nobody noticed a difference in Boo before and Boo now.

 

[Tapion]

Piccolo was surprised once he finally saw Super Boo for the first time as the dust clears.

Nothing in the original Manga determines that Super Boo's initial battle power far surpassed his previous battle power. At least not until he powers up temporarily. But even then, it's only a temporary power-burst because all the statements from other notable Chi sensors imply that nobody noticed a difference in Boo before and Boo now.

With ''other notable Chi sensors'' you're talking about ''Krillin and Yamcha''
Krillin and Yamcha also seemed to think that Base Gotenks had a chance against Fat Buu, but he got his butt-kicked.

 

[kriss-]

Kuririn, Yamcha, Goten and Trunks, essentially every other notable Chi sensor there. Nobody noticed a difference in Majin Boo, and Piccolo has to inform the others that he has changed, not once, but several times for several different people. Nothing in the original Manga implies Gotenks SSj Post is a great deal superior to Innocent Boo -at least nothing that is generally considered infallible.

Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo (Full Power) >= Gotenks SSj Post

Is what is considered during the events inside the Rosat.

 

[Tapion]

Kuririn, Yamcha, Goten and Trunks, essentially every other notable Chi sensor there. Nobody noticed a difference in Majin Boo, and Piccolo has to inform the others that he has changed, not once, but several times for several different people. Nothing in the original Manga implies Gotenks SSj Post is a great deal superior to Innocent Boo -at least nothing that is generally considered infallible.

Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo (Full Power) >= Gotenks SSj Post

Is what is considered during the events inside the Rosat.

Krillin is not a reliable ki sensor, neither is Yamcha at least in this part. Both of them thought that Base Gotenks had a chance against Fat Buu, but Fat Buu easily kicked his ass.
This implies that:
~ They aren't good ki sensors
~ They didn't sense Fat Buu.

Both of them support my point. Pick one. If they aren't good ki sensors, then we don't need their word to determine if Super Buu(initial) > Fat Buu.
If they didn't sense Fat Buu, then they wouldn't be capable of judging Super Buu's ki as stronger than before.

Goten and Trunks are never remarked as 'notable chi sensors' too.

 

[kriss-]

You are in no position to say who or who isn't a reliable Chi sensor. By the fact that Kuririn calls him haughty, means that he knows how powerful Gotenks was but he gave him the benefit of the doubt based on his own self confidence regarding his own abilities.

Because you are willing to completely disregard the opinions of in-universe characters, sheds light on how biased you truly are.

There really isn't anything left to discuss now. It's clear you are incapable of constructing an actual argument to counter my Gotenks SSj Post theory. Let's just stop where we are and get back on track. I think that we have derailed the topic enough.