The Invisible Kaio-Ken doesn't exist

[Evil Vegeta]

I know I told p I was done with this, but ahill wanted to see my complete post on the matter. I'm definitely done with it after this. This will delve into everything from start to finish on why Goku wasn't using the Kaio-Ken x10 the entire time.

When Goku first arrived and demonstrated the power to decimate the Ginyu Force, Krillin asked if he was actually Goku:

Now it's obviously a rhetorical question, but the point is Goku's improvement was significant enough to the point where he appeared to be a different being. This was just simply a display of Goku's power, though nowhere near close to his full-power.

When Goku sensed the power of 3rd Form Freeza, the idea of winning even if he was fully healed seemed doubtful. What does this mean? That Freeza was still far beyond a level he thought was possible for him to reach. Considering Goku assumed he reached his limit after completing the spaceship training, his thinking makes sense.

The fact that Freeza was able to overwhelm the newly powered-up Vegeta shows these powers (or at least Freeza's) were still beyond his understanding. They're in a different league compared to Goku, who doesn't even think he can handle 3rd Form Freeza.

Goku's confidence is from the new power that's pushed him to a level where he could compete with powers he once thought were too strong for him to challenge. Goku feels good because he greatly surpassed his limits and was now in a position to fight Freeza without being embarrassed. It has nothing to do with Goku calculating that a Kaio-Ken x10 would somehow push his pathetic level up to the big boys that he was literally unable to comprehend not even a minute ago. If anything, it'd be stupid for him to think he could win if that's his actual wild card.

Similar to Krillin's quote when Goku defeated the Ginyu Force. The main difference? Goku's Chi completely changed. Goku's Chi was drastically different because he overcame his limits and acquired a new level of power. This is all Goku.

This relates to the above perfectly. Vegeta also notes that Goku isn't the same as before because he's overcome his limits. Again, this is entirely about Goku. The Kaio-Ken takes Goku to levels that he otherwise can't reach normally. If not only Krillin recognizes Goku's Chi as being different, but Vegeta also says he surpassed his limits, it means Goku is naturally far more powerful than he ever was. There's absolutely 0 reason to introduce an element (Kaio-Ken x10) that isn't mentioned in any of the quotes. The entire context is about Goku surpassing his limits. This is exactly what the Narrator said he did as he continued getting stronger from the gravity training.

Goku and Freeza were equal during their initial part of the battle. Kaio's reasoning for this is Goku's seemingly limitless power. More emphasis on the fact that Goku's simply just that strong.

Goku's holding-back just like Freeza. The use of a Kaio-Ken (especially his highest level of it) isn't exactly holding-back. No reason to fight with your all when the situation doesn't call for it.

Goku and Freeza are just that powerful. Goku still has yet to unleash his real power just yet.

As we can see, that initial battle was nothing more than a warm-up for the two. Neither has tapped into their hidden power yet.

Honestly, the only time you could conceivably say Goku used the Kaio-Ken is here:

But the eyes aren't exactly proof because he doesn't have those same eyes here:

The color Manga has it as a regular aura. You could say it was a normal Kaio-Ken and there would be no issue. Either way, no Kaio-Ken x10. We're getting there, though.

Freeza can't sense power, but he could tell that Goku was holding-back a significant amount of power. Goku response essentially means Freeza's perception was accurate. There's literally no other way to interpret the following other than that. In Goku's mind, the Kaio-Ken x10 was his limit.

Goku and Freeza were concentrating before drawing out their hidden power for the next round. This shows the importance in the powers they were preparing to put forth.

Clear enough statement. Freeza's 50% power was too much for Goku's Kaio-Ken x10. Both of these were their reserve powers.

This is immediately followed by:

Nothing about Goku using the Kaio-Ken x10 the entire time. All Kaio says is that he's already using it. Goku's reserve power wasn't enough to prevent him from getting bodied by Freeza. That much is shown and stated. Goku has 0 reason to not fight Freeza with his all given that he's at a huge disadvantage and knows it's now or never.

Tien shockingly asks if Goku is really losing to Freeza despite using Kaio-Ken x10. Kaio confirms that Freeza is doing this with only 50% of his power. Seems to be a big deal based on how he replied to Tien. A Kaio-Ken x10 that was utilized the entire time makes it an extremely underwhelming power-up. It also eliminates the entire build-up to that part of the battle.

Goku's reserve power=Kaio-Ken x10
Freeza's reserve power=50% Power

Piccolo saying there was too much of a difference between the power they were hiding means 50% Freeza>>Kaio-Ken x10 Goku

This confirms that the Kaio-Ken x10 was the power Goku was hiding and went on to use when Freeza powered-up. Nothing remotely implies Goku used the Kaio-Ken x10 at any time beforehand. If Goku WAS using Kaio-Ken x10 the entire battle, it wouldn't have been regarded as his reserve/hidden power. You'd have to make huge leaps in logic to prove otherwise.

I feel like this topic goes into great detail in proving why the Invisible Kaio-Ken doesn't exist and why Goku is simply that powerful.

 

[SSJ2]

Woah.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Great post.

It might also be worth mentioning that Vegeta thought that Goku was a Super Saiyan as soon as Goku walked onto the battlefield. This wouldn't make any sense if Goku's base power was lower than Vegeta's.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Good point there.

Main reason why I didn't mention it was because those who believe in the Invisible Kaio-Ken don't believe it's Goku's Base that's actively being sensed there. Only the one enhanced with the Kaio-Ken.

 

[ahill1]

Great post EV. I really like to see good posts like this, well detailed and pretty much proving Goku wasn't using the Kaio-Ken x10. It's already something obvious for anyone that doesn't try to twist things and takes what the manga tells us without making up things, but it's really fine you did a post covering all the evidences of why Goku was initially just at his base powers. There might be users who still don't know these things and are influenced by the mistranslated numbers of 300,000 for base Goku, so rather than having to explain things again for them, we might just link to this topic and show them the whole explanation. Really appreciate your effort ^_^.

The Kaioken usage also occurs so quickly that it's compared to a heartbeat in the manga, so to think Goku was using it all time when not even fighting Freeza and when Vegeta commented on his powers is foolish.

 

[freezamite]

As I expected, the "demonstration" of the Invisible KK not existing is not based on hard facts from the manga, but only on concrete interpretations of certain scenes coupled with omissions of every feat/scene that doesn't fit in that narrative. That alone should be enough to dismiss that OP, but let's get into the details:

Firstly, let's start by demonstrating that the invisible KK existed with a HARD FACT:
In the very same page Kaito says Goku is using the KKx10... Goku is drawn WITHOUT AN AURA.
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-14.html
And if that wasn't clear enough, the next chapter resumes the fight with another instance of Goku not having an aura:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-119-index-2-page-1.html

See? That's how you prove something. It's not debatable that Goku was using the KKx10 in those pages and he clearly had no KK aura there (that's the reason you cut that page in your post, isn't it? Because of course having Goku without an aura in the same page Kaito is telling us he is using the KK would defeat the purpose of your thread. But you have to remember that:
1. I know the manga and I have it available to check it at any moment, so you won't fool me by omitting information.
2. This is available on the internet, so your cut scans will only be effective as long as no one finds/posts the complete page.

That's why those kinds of manipulations won't simply work against me).
So the existence of the invisible KK is proven here with just a page and without the need of explaining everything since Goku arrived at Namek to slowly paint a narrative only aimed at deforming what really happened.
Now, since the existence of the invisible KKx10 has been proven (unless you say Kaito was lying or wrong -in the same way you said the z-warriors were crazy/retarded when they thought Vegeta matched 18 in strength when according to you 18 was trashing Vegeta or playing with him-), the only thing that can be debatable is if Goku had it activated since the beginning of the fight or if he didn't.

When Goku sensed the power of 3rd Form Freeza, the idea of winning even if he was fully healed seemed doubtful. What does this mean? That Freeza was still far beyond a level he thought was possible for him to reach. Considering Goku assumed he reached his limit after completing the spaceship training, his thinking makes sense

The fact that Freeza was able to overwhelm the newly powered-up Vegeta shows these powers (or at least Freeza's) were still beyond his understanding. They're in a different league compared to Goku, who doesn't even think he can handle 3rd Form Freeza.

Goku's confidence is from the new power that's pushed him to a level where he could compete with powers he once thought were too strong for him to challenge. Goku feels good because he greatly surpassed his limits and was now in a position to fight Freeza without being embarrassed. It has nothing to do with Goku calculating that a Kaio-Ken x10 would somehow push his pathetic level up to the big boys that he was literally unable to comprehend not even a minute ago. If anything, it'd be stupid for him to think he could win if that's his actual wild card.

As I've said, you spend 3 paragraphs describing unrelated facts only to start a narrative to justify a very BOLD assumption that goes against Goku's character: that he didn't take into account the KK when comparing himself to Freezer.
Not only it's not stupid for Goku to consider the KK when evaluating his chances in a fight, in fact, it's the complete opposite of that.

Of course, this assumption of yours contradicts what Goku already did:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-90-index-2-page-13.html

See Goku using the KK to increase his power and fool Ginyu? Not only there's nothing stupid in considering the KK when evaluating the chances of winning a fight, it's the most reasonable approach and something Goku already did. Why would he stop doing it against Freezer exactly?

Secondly, the KKx10 wasn't Goku's wildcard against Freezer. As Goku states, the stronger his body the stronger levels of KK he can use, and the KKx10 was already something he could use in a fight BEFORE arriving at Namek:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-76-index-2-page-11.html

So with his power having increased a lot with that zenkay, his ability to endure higher levels of KK had also increased considerably as well and going considerably above the KKx10 was his wildcard, not the KKx10 he already knew he could use from much before.

So your first assumption not only goes against what Goku had been doing until then, but it also goes against what was stated in the manga. Goku was perfectly aware he could use the KKx10 at that point, it wasn't a "wildcard" by any means (the KKx20 was).

Similar to Krillin's quote when Goku defeated the Ginyu Force. The main difference? Goku's Chi completely changed. Goku's Chi was drastically different because he overcame his limits and acquired a new level of power. This is all Goku.
.
.
.
This relates to the above perfectly. Vegeta also notes that Goku isn't the same as before because he's overcome his limits. Again, this is entirely about Goku. The Kaio-Ken takes Goku to levels that he otherwise can't reach normally. If not only Krillin recognizes Goku's Chi as being different, but Vegeta also says he surpassed his limits, it means Goku is naturally far more powerful than he ever was. There's absolutely 0 reason to introduce an element (Kaio-Ken x10) that isn't mentioned in any of the quotes. The entire context is about Goku surpassing his limits. This is exactly what the Narrator said he did as he continued getting stronger from the gravity training.

Every time a character gets stronger it overcomes his previous "limits", but the chi being different in any case would point towards him already using the KK if you want to take this into consideration (not that it is a definitive proof nor anything).
But what's most important: Vegeta or Krilin aren't omniscient characters, they can't know (and it would be bad writing if they knew) if Goku is or isn't using the KK if there's no aura there.

Of course, before Kaito tells us Goku is already using the KKx10 and we see it being used without an aura, we still have no reason to assume Goku is using the KKx10 here, but now you're trying to prove Goku couldn't be using the KKx10 here even if that's the more logical approach (as I'll prove now), and those quotes doesn't prove your point. They only fit in your narrative if interpreted in the way you do, but they aren't a proof of Goku not using the KKx10.

Goku's holding-back just like Freeza. The use of a Kaio-Ken (especially his highest level of it) isn't exactly holding-back. No reason to fight with your all when the situation doesn't call for it.

Freeza can't sense power, but he could tell that Goku was holding-back a significant amount of power. Goku response essentially means Freeza's perception was accurate. There's literally no other way to interpret the following other than that. In Goku's mind, the Kaio-Ken x10 was his limit.

Raditz was holding back while not being able to lower his ki (in other words, he was always using his maximum strength) and Goku could use the KKx10 with 90.000 of strength and reached the KKx20 against Freezer. To say the KKx10 was his maximum or that he can't be holding back if he is using all his ki, again, goes against what was stated in the manga several times.
You insist a lot in that the KKx10 had to be Goku's limit and that Goku couldn't be holding back if not hiding his power (as if a regular human can't hold back in real life because we can't hide our ki), but that's just your interpretations and they contradict the manga at multiple points as proved.

Now, the thing is, are you even able to point the exact moment where Goku activated the KKx10? No, you won't. Is it when they're staring at each other? But then according to you Goku was already using the KKx10 here, wasn't he?
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-6.html
Clearly invisible, and also clearly wrong to assume it was activated here because of reasons.

So, why can't the KKx10 have been activated in the middle of the fight?
Firstly, because it's not seen how Goku activates it. Never in the series a technique has been used without it having been drawn or explained.
Secondly, because a sudden KKx10 activation would've taken Freezer by surprise. The KKx2 activation took Vegeta by surprise and he was expecting it, and the KKx20 took Freezer by surprise, but now the KKx10 is something that is perfectly predicted for no reason? It simply doesn't compute.

The invisible KK existed (as proved in the first lines of this post) and it had to be used since the very beginning (that means since before Goku arrived where Freezer and the rest of the z-warriors were).

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Never in the series a technique has been used without it having been drawn or explained.

You just described the Invisible Kaio-Ken.

And you're still wrong. Thanks for demonstrating why.

 

[freezamite]

Never in the series a technique has been used without it having been drawn or explained.

You just described the Invisible Kaio-Ken.

And you're still wrong. Thanks for demonstrating why.

If Kaito tells us that Goku was using the KKx10, then the technique's activation has been explained (or stated), even if it's in a weird way.
And I already know how hard it is for you to accept that you're wrong (more than hard, impossible), but you can't change the existence of this page:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-14.html

You tried to cut it, you probably would've gone as far as to edit it with photoshop if it wasn't so easy to find the original source in the Internet and in the end you'll say that Toriyama was retarded or whatever, but the fact is that in the very same page Kaito explains Goku is using the KKx10, Goku is drawn without an aura (and in the following one, and in the previous one...). You can't change that, accept it and accept you can be wrong.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

As I expected, the "demonstration"... is not based on hard facts from the manga, but only on concrete interpretations of certain scenes coupled with omissions of every feat/scene that doesn't fit in that narrative.

If this isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku was KK when he arrived in the battlefield? Where did this shit came from?

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

Man, where have you been the last few months?

 

[freezamite]

As I expected, the "demonstration"... is not based on hard facts from the manga, but only on concrete interpretations of certain scenes coupled with omissions of every feat/scene that doesn't fit in that narrative.

If this isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

You clearly don't know what is. I mean, let's repeat it again:
See the page where Kaito says Goku is using the KKx10?
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-14.html

Do you see any KK aura or anything that resembles a KK (goku's colouring or anything) there? If yes, please explain me what is it in that drawing that indicates Goku is using the KK.
If not, then Goku is using the invisible KK. This is not an opinion because it's not an opinion that Goku doesn't have an aura and it's not an opinion that Kaito says he is using the KKx10, those are facts.
Now you may say Kaito was wrong or lying, well, that's an opinion and you should justify why you think that, otherwise stick to the facts and accept what's absolutely obvious (Goku was using the KK without a KK aura).

Goku was KK when he arrived in the battlefield? Where did this shit came from?

Straight from the manga

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yes, posting Goku receiving an extended pummeling is compeling evidence. Not. Remember when you said Goku had to be Kaio-Ken x10 to survive the beating? Remember when you were shown 50% Freeza pounding on an even weaker Goku that just depleted his energy with Kaio-Ken x20? I do.

Simply put, you have nothing but a convoluted assessment on what took place. Mines actually follows the story. You twist things to your liking. It's clear to anyone on the outside looking in.

You take a simple statement from Kaio, highlight when he's taking hits as proof (single strikes knocked him out of Kaio-Ken in the Saiyan saga, btw) that he's accessing Invisible Kaio-Ken, and actually think this is worthwhile proof....of anything? Nevermind the fact that he flared his aura countless times when he attacked 50% Freeza. You theory has no merit. Kaio's clearly saying he's already using it...as in, it's no longer something he has up his sleeve to change the dynamics of the battle. You somehow take Goku not having the aura up the second he says it (even though he's being attacked) to mean the Kaio-Ken is now an unseen technique. Yeah, that sounds like your opinion.



Then again, you do believe 50% Freeza=Semi-Cell, so not really a shocker.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Goku quite clearly never maintains the Kaio-Ken aura when he's hit. It dissipates. This has been a fact since the Saiyan saga:

You can resort to semantics regarding the timing as much as you'd like. The main point is when Goku takes an attack, the aura quickly vanishes.

This is no different in the Freeza saga.

Goku was being attacked by Freeza before it showed Kaio (the panel that you seem to believe proves your point) and he was being attacked afterwards:

Logic would dictate that he was taking Freeza's attacks for the entire duration of that sequence. That means the aura would've had no reason to be up in those particular panels.

Furthermore, the color Manga clearly shows him being knocked out of it as well:

So in this case, as usual, it comes down to you believing your shaky assessment is enough to supersede what anyone and everything else says or shows. Not just forum posters, but what's actually shown in the story itself. Pretty funny how you talk about someone else not being able to admit they're wrong when you constantly make things up as you go along to further your way of thinking.

The OP is coherent enough for those not too rooted in their beliefs to understand why Goku isn't 10x weaker than Freeza going into the fight. You're so convinced you're correct that you write off anything that remotely challenges your assessment. But like I said, 50% Freeza=Semi-Cell should've been my cue to begin with.

 

[freezamite]

Yes, posting Goku receiving an extended pummeling is compeling evidence. Not. Remember when you said Goku had to be Kaio-Ken x10 to survive the beating? Remember when you were shown 50% Freeza pounding on an even weaker Goku that just depleted his energy with Kaio-Ken x20? I do.

Yes, and I also remember answering that Goku was visibly tired (and still using the KKx10), and that's why Freezer was able to adapt to it.
What I'm saying and it's obvious seeing any other fight in the series is that it would be impossible for Goku to survive hits that had the strength to defeat a KKx10, without using the KKx10, which is your stance. Because Freezer can't sense powers, he can't see if Goku is using the KKx10 or not, so if his hits have the strength to beat KKx10 they would insta-kill non KKx10 Goku.
By the way, I don't know what Goku receiving an extended pumeling has to do with him not having the KK aura. Even when he wasn't as good using the KK and he "loosed" it after being hit (he deactivated it consciously every time in fact), he clearly still had the KK at the moment he was hit, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to survive those hits.

Simply put, you have nothing but a convoluted assessment on what took place. Mines actually follows the story. You twist things to your liking. It's clear to anyone on the outside looking in.

In fact you're the one that has to explain the whole Namek saga while omitting some details (like Goku being able to use the KKx10 even before arriving at Namek, or the KK being more effective as the body grew stronger) to justify your stance.
On the other hand, I just need one page to demonstrate it, the one where Kaito is saying Goku is using the KKx10 and he is clearly drawn without an aura:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-14.html

You take a simple statement from Kaio, highlight when he's taking hits as proof (single strikes knocked him out of Kaio-Ken in the Saiyan saga, btw)

Single strikes didn't knock him out of the KK, and even considering Goku's mastering of the KK was much worse he always had the KK active WHILE being hit and only deactivated it AFTER the impact.
Now you've put some good examples of that, thank you for proving my point
The tail hits him while in KK, he deactivates it well after the impact and after having regained the equilibrium:

He dodges Vegeta's attack with the KK, he only deactivates it long after the attack has scratched him:

He endures Vegeta's kick with the KK, he regains the equilibrium and only deactivates it after doing that:

See? Not a single hit is endured without the KK, because according to the internal rules of the manga that would mean insta-death for Goku.

Now, the coloured manga is a bad example, because that chapter was originally published in black and white, and that aura was never intended to be a KK aura, it was always meant to be a flying aura (that's why Freezer has it as well).

that he's accessing Invisible Kaio-Ken, and actually think this is worthwhile proof....of anything? Nevermind the fact that he flared his aura countless times when he attacked 50% Freeza. You theory has no merit. Kaio's clearly saying he's already using it...as in, it's no longer something he has up his sleeve to change the dynamics of the battle. You somehow take Goku not having the aura up the second he says it (even though he's being attacked) to mean the Kaio-Ken is now an unseen technique. Yeah, that sounds like your opinion.

Firstly, Goku never endured a hit able to defeat his KK version without the KK, as you in fact proved yourself.
Secondly, what I'm saying is that for Goku to only have the KK active at this single page when his eyes are clearly coloured as black (he never has his eyes in black while using the KK, that's another hint that this was just a flying aura) makes no sense either considering that Freezer reacted to it without even looking (which means that Goku acted just like he expected, impossible if the KKx10 was activated there with a non-KK aura nonetheless):
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-10.html

If the KKx10 had to be activated somewhere at midfight, that should have been just after Freezer increased his power to 50% (and that's still not a possibility because Freezer wouldn't have been able to adapt to it the way he did). But then again, Goku had no aura there:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-5.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-6.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-7.html

The invisible KK is a reality, embrace it.

Then again, you do believe 50% Freeza=Semi-Cell, so not really a shocker.

In fact I believe 50% Freezer was above Semi-Cell :molest

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yes, and I also remember answering that Goku was visibly tired (and still using the KKx10), and that's why Freezer was able to adapt to it.

This is wrong. Gohan said Goku's Chi dropped and Goku said the Kaio-Ken x20 caused his power to start dropping fast. He wasn't using any form of Kaio-Ken after x20 as his power was continuously going down.

What I'm saying and it's obvious seeing any other fight in the series is that it would be impossible for Goku to survive hits that had the strength to defeat a KKx10, without using the KKx10, which is your stance. Because Freezer can't sense powers, he can't see if Goku is using the KKx10 or not, so if his hits have the strength to beat KKx10 they would insta-kill non KKx10 Goku.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense. Goku's power was constantly going down after using the Kaio-Ken x20, so there's absolutely nothing (outside of your opinion) saying he needed it to survive. Freeza said killing Goku that easily would've been unsatisfying, so it's obvious he used enough effort to not kill Goku.

By the way, I don't know what Goku receiving an extended pumeling has to do with him not having the KK aura. Even when he wasn't as good using the KK and he loosed it after being hit, he clearly still had the KK at the moment he was hit, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to survive those hits.

Again, you're using a brief sequence of Freeza landing a hit to prove your point. How do you know Freeza wasn't in the middle of landing consecutive hits on Goku? It's shown after the Kaio scene, then goes back to Kaio's right after, and then he's shown being attacked again. The first attack would've already knocked him out of the aura because he can't maintain it when he's hit. It obviously would've been gone by that point.

So no, this panel proves 0.

In fact you're the one that has to explain the whole Namek saga while omitting some details (like Goku being able to use the KKx10 even before arriving at Namek, or the KK being more effective as the body grew stronger) to justify your stance.

Yes, because believing he can handle it means he can withstand it for long durations after receiving a crappy zenkai. Nice correlation there. Too bad the Kaio-Ken doesn't work that way.

Btw, you're the one that needs to explain how the Kaio-Ken x10 is both Goku's reserve power and a power he was using the entire time. Good luck with that one.

Single strikes knocked him out of the KK, but even then (where Goku's mastering of the KK was much worse) he always had the KK active WHILE being hit.

It isn't active. It literally vanishes. Goku tried to escape from Oozaru Vegeta, got hit, and dropped out of it. He flat-out lost the aura altogether.

Now you've put some good examples of that, thank you for proving my point

It doesn't prove your point because he still lost the aura. If he could've maintained it, he would've. He couldn't.

Unwritten rules aren't evidence, btw. A depleted Goku that continued to lose power was taking hits by 50% Freeza without any form of the Kaio-Ken.

Now, the coloured manga is a bad example, because that chapter was originally published in black and white, and that aura was never intended to be a KK aura, it was always meant to be a flying aura (that's why Freezer has it as well).

That makes no sense. Like, at all. Furthermore, you're acting as if your opinion is proof. You don't know what was or wasn't intended to be anything.

Against Freeza using no hands. Unique eyes in one instance, normal in the other.

The eyes argument is terrible and proves nothing.

Firstly, Goku never endured a hit able to defeat his KK version without the KK, as you in fact proved yourself.

Guess you're still wrong.

If the KKx10 had to be activated somewhere at midfight, that should have been just after Freezer increased his power to 50%. But then again, Goku had no aura there

Yet he had one here when he was attacking Freeza:

The invisible KK is a reality, embrace it.

A reality with no basis, maybe.

In fact I believe 50% Freezer was above Semi-Cell :molest

That's actually worse.

 

[freezamite]

This is wrong. Gohan said Goku's Chi dropped and Goku said the Kaio-Ken x20 caused his power to start dropping fast. He wasn't using any form of Kaio-Ken after x20 as his power was continuously going down.

In his fight against Vegeta Goku activated the KKx4 after having lost a lot of power activating the KKx3 twice. For Freezer to not kill him, he had to regress to the KKx10, which was what Freezer was expecting from him. Of course, that KKx10 wasn't as strong as the one he had in the beginning, but Freezer could already see this by how injured and visibly tired Goku was.
The thing is, in the earth Goku reached his highest level of KK (one that wasn't even possible in theory) after losing a lot of strength, which means that your point of him having lost strength meaning he wouldn't be able to use the KKx10 is not a good argument. He did it in the earth, he obviously could do it in Namek.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense. Goku's power was constantly going down after using the Kaio-Ken x20, so there's absolutely nothing (outside of your opinion) saying he needed it to survive. Freeza said killing Goku that easily would've been unsatisfying, so it's obvious he used enough effort to not kill Goku.

Freezer said this before Goku activated the KKx20, and of course he was adapting his strength to not kill Goku. But what Freezer can't do is to adapt to something he doesn't know and can't perceive. He overpowered KKx10 Goku with his 50%, and was taken by surprise with the sudden KKx20 activation, but after that he could perfectly see how tired Goku was. Of course, that only applies to what Freezer knew (KKx10 Goku) so if Goku didn't had the KKx10 active after the KKx20, Freezer would've killed him even without wanting to do so.

Again, you're using a brief sequence of Freeza landing a hit to prove your point. How do you know Freeza wasn't in the middle of landing consecutive hits on Goku?

In fact, I edited my reply because I bought your narrative without realising it. Goku was never kicked out of the KK as you can see in the pictures you've posted, he deactivated it consciously as it's proven by the fact that he always recovered his stance before deactivating it.
And as I say, it doesn't matter if Freezer had hit him 10 times, the sole fact that Goku survives those hits proves that he is using the KKx10. No one in DB endures hits with the strength to beat someone 10 times stronger.

Yes, because believing he can handle it means he can withstand it for long durations after receiving a crappy zenkai. Nice correlation there. Too bad the Kaio-Ken doesn't work that way.

A crappy zenkay? He went from not being even able to handle the KKx3 to handle the KKx10 through 5 crappier zenkays. Why wouldn't an extra zenkay, and a huge one at that (heck, you were using how Goku described his increase in strength as a proof that he wasn't using the KKx10, and now that zenkay suddenly becomes "crappy"?), allow him to maintain a level of KK he could already realistically endure in a fight?

Btw, you're the one that needs to explain how the Kaio-Ken x10 is both Goku's reserve power and a power he was using the entire time. Good luck with that one.

Thanks, but the thing is that I've already explained this multiple times.
For example, this is 100% Freezer warming up:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-127-index-2-page-14.html
How can his maximum power be his reserve power? Well, it's just that like we normal human beings do in real life, it's perfectly possible to warm up without hiding one's ki. So this could be one valid explanation (Goku not restraining his power, but still not fighting with his maximum strength).

If you don't like the usual warm up as an explanation, there's this other possibility. Here Goku increases his power slowly while using the same level of KK (KKx2):
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-91-index-2-page-1.html
Which means that Goku may have been fighting while reserving a bit of his power, while still using the KKx10 (if he did it with the KKx2 there's nothing that prevents it from doing it with the KKx10).

And of course, that's assuming your premise that the KKx10 was the maximum he could realistically endure, something I disagree with. In my opinion, considering Goku was already able to use the KKx10 when he arrived at planet Namek (prior to his last zenkay power) and that he endured the KKx10 much better than the KKx2 in the earth and the KKx20 better than the KKx3, I think he could've realistically endured up to a KKx15 in short bursts, which could perfectly be his reserve power.

As you see, there are a lot of explanations based on what happens in the manga (and from the same saga we are discussing, which means that those weren't things that happened a lot of years before or after those scenes and could be retconned by the author) that explain this situation much better than Goku magically surviving hits that should have one-shoted him.

It isn't active. It literally vanishes. Goku tried to escape from Oozaru Vegeta, got hit, and dropped out of it. He flat-out lost the aura altogether.

The KKx2 wasn't free to Goku, he explained to Krilin that he couldn't use it for long periods of time. But if he had been dropped out of the KK, he would've lost it just after being hit, but in every example you give he only deactivates it after he has regained his fighting stance (or in the Oozaru's scene, his equilibrium).

Unwritten rules aren't evidence, btw. A depleted Goku that continued to lose power was taking hits by 50% Freeza without any form of the Kaio-Ken.

Of course they're an evidence. If the author always considers a 10-15% difference to be fatally big, and we are discussing if Goku endured hits that had more than 1000% his strength or not, the internal coherence of course helps to determine which is the most likely possibility.
And as I said, Goku was using the KKx10 there. Not according to you, true, but respecting the internal coherence of the manga as much as possible is a basic rule when debating, otherwise anyone can say whatever he wants without even properly justifying it.

That makes no sense. Like, at all. Furthermore, you're acting as if your opinion is proof. You don't know what was or wasn't intended to be anything.

I know it was intended to be a flying aura because:
1. Goku's eyes are never black when there's a KK aura (that alone is a proof that this wasn't a KK aura).
2. The aura only appears when Goku is flying.

Against Freeza using no hands. Unique eyes in one instance, normal in the other.

The white eyes resource was used tons of times, not only with the KK. But it was also a characteristic of the KK aura, in other words, you could see white eyes in dozens of places where the KK aura wasn't drawn like here (Vegeta):
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-102-index-2-page-8.html
Or here (Gohan):
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-103-index-2-page-5.html

But you won't find a single vignette of Goku using KK where his eyes are black (as long as the size of the eyes was big enough to properly draw the white eyes, of course).

The eyes argument is terrible and proves nothing.

Having black eyes automatically invalidates it being a KK aura, try looking for a KK aura with black coloured eyes if you don't believe me.

Guess you're still wrong.

I guess not considering I've already said that Goku was using the KKx10 there. You can't use your stance on the subject to prove my stance being wrong.

Yet he had one here when he was attacking Freeza:

With black eyes and only while flying, it clearly isn't a KK aura.

A reality with no basis, maybe.

You've been unable to find a single stance of Goku surviving a hit able to defeat his KK while not using his KK, and the images of Goku being "dropped out" of the KK are clearly him deactivating it after regaining his stance. On the other hand, I still have Kaito saying Goku was using the KK in a scene where Goku is drawn without an aura. As I've said, the invisible KKx10 is there, it's a reality.

In fact I believe 50% Freezer was above Semi-Cell :molest

That's actually worse.

Not in my opinion

 

[Evil Vegeta]

In his fight against Vegeta Goku activated the KKx4 after having lost a lot of power activating the KKx3 twice. For Freezer to not kill him, he had to regress to the KKx10, which was what Freezer was expecting from him. Of course, that KKx10 wasn't as strong as the one he had in the beginning, but Freezer could already see this by how injured and visibly tired Goku was.

After Goku used the Kaio-Ken x4, he was unable to tap into any higher Kaio-Ken levels afterwards. The most he does is the normal Kaio-Ken once more. And no, that's no true at all. Oozaru Vegeta landed quite a few attacks on a non Kaio-Ken Goku without outright finishing him.

Also, it was never stated Goku's power was constantly dropping on Earth from using the Kaio-Ken. The only time there's any mention of his power going down is when Oozaru Vegeta is crushing him.

So it's not comparable to the Kaio-Ken x20 instance whatsoever. Your opinion on what level someone needs to be to survive an attack is just what it is. There's nothing factual about it.

The thing is, in the earth Goku reached his highest level of KK (one that wasn't even possible in theory) after losing a lot of strength, which means that your point of him having lost strength meaning he wouldn't be able to use the KKx10 is not a good argument. He did it in the earth, he obviously could do it in Namek.

Goku wrecked his body on Earth, but he could still move around and at least fly. Goku never flew after using the Kaio-Ken x20. He's shown winded and commenting that his power was rapidly dropping. Your example doesn't compare in the least. Show me one example of Goku being able to fly after using the Kaio-Ken x20 and then you can compare the situations. Until then, nope. The Kaio-Ken x20 had a far more profound effect, clearly.

Freezer said this before Goku activated the KKx20, and of course he was adapting his strength to not kill Goku.

So? That doesn't change the point. Freeza was hitting him hard enough to not kill him. This is stated. Goku was in far worse condition after using the Kaio-Ken x20, anyway.

But what Freezer can't do is to adapt to something he doesn't know and can't perceive.

Wrong again. Freeza accurately predicted that Goku was holding-back and was expecting him to use it. To say he couldn't anticipate anything Goku was doing is hilariously inaccurate.

He overpowered KKx10 Goku with his 50%, and was taken by surprise with the sudden KKx20 activation, but after that he could perfectly see how tired Goku was. Of course, that only applies to what Freezer knew (KKx10 Goku) so if Goku didn't had the KKx10 active after the KKx20, Freezer would've killed him even without wanting to do so.

Goku didn't have it active. Piccolo said he barely had any strength and Goku himself said he was losing power. No Kaio-Ken x10.

In fact, I edited my reply because I bought your narrative without realising it. Goku was never kicked out of the KK as you can see in the pictures you've posted, he deactivated it consciously as it's proven by the fact that he always recovered his stance before deactivating it.

No, he didn't. Goku has no reason to deactivate Kaio-Ken when the purpose of using it was to get away. He simply lost the aura altogether. Anyone can see that it vanishes.

And as I say, it doesn't matter if Freezer had hit him 10 times, the sole fact that Goku survives those hits proves that he is using the KKx10. No one in DB endures hits with the strength to beat someone 10 times stronger.

Still your opinion that isn't even close to being factual. Gohan said Goku's Chi dropped, Goku said he was constantly losing power, and Piccolo questioned what Goku was going to do with such low power. No Kaio-Ken x10.

A crappy zenkay? He went from not being even able to handle the KKx3 to handle the KKx10 through 5 crappier zenkays.

Yes, because showing up with nearly everyone being above you doesn't make Goku pathetic. Goku showed up with a Chi significantly higher than everyone else's (sans Freeza), and he had no aura. It's a very straight-forward sequence.

Kaio-Ken Goku>Goku>Vegeta>Everyone

Thanks, but the thing is that I've already explained this multiple times.

Um, no. Freeza isn't using a technique that raises his power 10 fold. His 100% is entirely his own power.

Kaio-Ken isn't a transformation. Kaio-Ken multiplies Goku's power by a set amount. Goku using a Kaio-Ken x10 multiplies his power by 10. This is stated.

Which means that Goku may have been fighting while reserving a bit of his power, while still using the KKx10 (if he did it with the KKx2 there's nothing that prevents it from doing it with the KKx10).

Goku slowly drew out his power and it resulted in his power doubling. That's the point of the scene. To show Ginyu his power. He never fought with any partial level of Kaio-Ken. Not only does that contradict the entire point of the technique, but it needlessly complicates things for no reason.

The Kaio-Ken x10 was stated to be the power Goku was hiding. If he was using it the entire time, then it means he was already raising his power by 10. If you seriously believe Goku was 300k and used it to put himself on an even field with Freeza, then there's no reason why he'd believe the same exact power-up would do any better against a higher level of Freeza. Furthermore, that's the exact opposite of hidden power.

That's why this theory is terrible.

And of course, that's assuming your premise that the KKx10 was the maximum he could realistically endure, something I disagree with. In my opinion, considering Goku was already able to use the KKx10 when he arrived at planet Namek (prior to his last zenkay power) and that he endured the KKx10 much better than the KKx2 in the earth and the KKx20 better than the KKx3, I think he could've realistically endured up to a KKx15 in short bursts, which could perfectly be his reserve power.

You can disagree with it, but I'm right. Tien asks if Goku is losing to Freeza despite using the Kaio-Ken x10 and Kaio confirms that Freeza is only using 50% of his power. That means the only powers that were clashing were Kaio-Ken x10 and 50% Freeza. If he was using a higher level, it would've been stated somewhere. Instead, it's mentioned nowhere.

As you see, there are a lot of explanations based on what happens in the manga (and from the same saga we are discussing, which means that those weren't things that happened a lot of years before or after those scenes and could be retconned by the author) that explain this situation much better than Goku magically surviving hits that should have one-shoted him.

But Goku needing Kaio-Ken x10 to keep up with Freeza and hiding the same Kaio-Ken x10 for when things get more serious is a good explanation? In what universe?

The KKx2 wasn't free to Goku, he explained to Krilin that he couldn't use it for long periods of time. But if he had been dropped out of the KK, he would've lost it just after being hit, but in every example you give he only deactivates it after he has regained his fighting stance (or in the Oozaru's scene, his equilibrium).

He did lose it. The timing not meshing with your opinion doesn't change the point. The aura literally vanishes.

Of course they're an evidence. If the author always considers a 10-15% difference to be fatally big, and we are discussing if Goku endured hits that had more than 1000% his strength or not, the internal coherence of course helps to determine which is the most likely possibility.
And as I said, Goku was using the KKx10 there. Not according to you, true, but respecting the internal coherence of the manga as much as possible is a basic rule when debating, otherwise anyone can say whatever he wants without even properly justifying it.

Your stance is anything but coherent. You're seriously saying Goku used the Kaio-Ken x10 to equal Freeza and also hid this same power for when the fight got more serious.

Guess what? That's not a Kaio-Ken x10. That's a technique freezamite developed to use in a debate. 10 fold means 10 fold. If 10 fold is required for Goku to keep up and more power is necessary to deal with a powered-up Freeza, that's more than 10 fold. Revise your power levels or re-read the story, please.

1. Goku's eyes are never black when there's a KK aura (that alone is a proof that this wasn't a KK aura).

2. The aura only appears when Goku is flying.

1. Goku always has an aura when he does the Kaio-Ken. That alone is proof that he wasn't using the Kaio-Ken the entire time.
2. So? Kaio-Ken is something he also uses in bursts.

The white eyes resource was used tons of times, not only with the KK. But it was also a characteristic of the KK aura, in other words, you could see white eyes, of course).

Nice. Going out of context, as expected.

Having black eyes automatically invalidates it being a KK aura, try looking for a KK aura with black coloured eyes if you don't believe me.

Having no aura automatically invalidates him using Kaio-Ken at all. Try looking for Goku using the Kaio-Ken without an aura if you don't believe me.

See what I did there? You're being a hypocrite.

I guess not considering I've already said that Goku was using the KKx10 there. You can't use your stance on the subject to prove my stance being wrong.

Nor can you use the "black eyes" as a rebuttal when your entire theory is predicated on Goku using the Kaio-Ken without an aura. Either both traits are a requirement for the Kaio-Ken to be active or they're not. You don't get to disregard what you want.

 

[freezamite]

After Goku used the Kaio-Ken x4, he was unable to tap into any higher Kaio-Ken levels afterwards. The most he does is the normal Kaio-Ken once more. And no, that's no true at all. Oozaru Vegeta landed quite a few attacks on a non Kaio-Ken Goku without outright finishing him.

Moving the goalposts? The KKx20 wasn't even as damaging as the KKx3, so comparing it to the KKx4 that left Goku weakened to the point that even Yajirobee's pat in his back was painful is... surrealist. But even if you try to compare the KKx4 to the KKx20, what I'm saying is that after the KKx20 Goku reverted to the KKx10 (a level of KK he had completely mastered) and in the earth Goku did use the KK after the KKx4, so even if I buy your KKx20 = KKx4 premise, what Goku did in Namek is comparable to what he did in the Earth against Vegeta.
Oh, and Vegeta didn't kill Goku on purpose, he wanted to torture him, so in the same way I can hit a fly without killing it if I want to, Vegeta did the same with Goku:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-35-index-2-page-22.html

Look, you're entering desperation mode now. You've already started to rewrite what I'm saying with that "Goku didn't go higher than his KKx4 in the earth" and I bet you'll start to rewrite the whole manga just to try to prove your points (like that there weren't internal rules in the DB manga), giving all the weight to your interpretations of ambiguous sentences or scenes and omitting everything that contradicts what you say.

Also, it was never stated Goku's power was constantly dropping on Earth from using the Kaio-Ken. The only time there's any mention of his power going down is when Oozaru Vegeta is crushing him.

See? So you're telling me that after seeing Goku completely exhausted and trembling after the first KKx3 activation you're unable to tell that he had weakened?
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-36-index-2-page-14.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-37-index-2-page-1.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-37-index-2-page-2.html
Or that besides Vegeta having been beaten and having lost strength, you can't see Goku was weakened when he not only needed the KKx3 to overpower Vegeta, but the KKx4 because the KK weakened him even more than the beating he gave Vegeta?

That's why you're one of the worst debators here. You may not be the less knowledgeable but you have no problem in being completely dishonest only to not admit that you may be wrong. So now it seems that Goku didn't lose any strength until Vegeta turned Oozaru, yes, that Goku surely seems to have 100% of his strength:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-38-index-2-page-2.html

So it's not comparable to the Kaio-Ken x20 instance whatsoever. Your opinion on what level someone needs to be to survive an attack is just what it is. There's nothing factual about it.

Hahahahahahahah good joke. Look, quit that desperation-negationist mode and start debating like an adult. No one survives a hit that could defeat his 10 times stronger version in DB, you're free to look for it, but don't come at me with lies. Every time that someone with twice or triple the strength doesn't one hit kill his opponent its because he doesn't want to or because he had been much more weakened than he thought and miscalculated the strength of his attack.

Goku wrecked his body on Earth, but he could still move around and at least fly. Goku never flew after using the Kaio-Ken x20. He's shown winded and commenting that his power was rapidly dropping.

Hahahahahah are you saying that Goku couldn't fly only because he didn't do it?
He of course was visibly tired after the KKx20, no one said he wasn't, but his body didn't tremble in pain like he did after the KKx3, and much less like the KKx4 where even Yajirobee's pat was painful to him.
But hey, this Goku:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-38-index-2-page-1.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-38-index-2-page-2.html
Was less weakened than this one:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-120-index-2-page-9.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-120-index-2-page-12.html
I get it Evil Vegeta, you're never wrong. But please, stop saying ridiculous and dishonest things.

Show me one example of Goku being able to fly after using the Kaio-Ken x20 and then you can compare the situations.
Until then, nope. The Kaio-Ken x20 had a far more profound effect, clearly.

Stop it Evil Vegeta, stop it. Besides that absolutely easy to dismiss demagogic claim of "if Goku didn't fly, it's because he couldn't" (hey, could Goku fly at chapter DBZ 140? Because he doesn't fly in the whole chapter lol) we have even Gohan and Krilin being able to fly after giving nearly all his strength to Piccolo and using the few they had left against Freezer.
And yes, Goku didn't fly after he stopped flying and started to concentrate the Genkidama, but he still tanked this:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-120-index-2-page-14.html
And anyone not as dishonest as you can see that this Goku still has more energy than Krilin even before giving his energy to Piccolo (let alone after doing it), because otherwise he wouldn't be able to even get up after that attack from Freezer.

Are you trying to win a prize at the worst debater in the whole forum, maybe?

And I'll stop answering to the blatant lies here. From now on I'll only answer to what seems an honest point (or may be read as one) and if you want to continue debating, at least do it well. It's obvious that you'll lie as much as necessary only to try to defend a stance you already know its wrong, but that's not a good thing to do in a forum Evil Vegeta.

Wrong again. Freeza accurately predicted that Goku was holding-back and was expecting him to use it. To say he couldn't anticipate anything Goku was doing is hilariously inaccurate.

Who said he couldn't anticipate "anything" Goku was doing? He couldn't anticipate what he didn't know. He knew Goku had energy in reserve because of how Goku acted, like Ginew.
But like Ginew, he could not guess anything related to the KK which is a technique that only Goku knows in the whole universe. So tell me Evil Vegeta, he could accurately guess the KKx10, but he didn't have a clue about the KKx20 even after seeing how Goku was activating it in front of him?

No, he didn't. Goku has no reason to deactivate Kaio-Ken when the purpose of using it was to get away. He simply lost the aura altogether. Anyone can see that it vanishes.

Anyone can see says the boy, after defying any logic about the KK you still will talk about what anyone can or can't see? Lol
Look, if the KK had vanished as a result of the hit, Goku wouldn't regain his stance with the KK still active. See? This is Trunks losing the SSJ as a result of a hit:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-160-index-2-page-8.html
This is Goku not losing the KK as a result of the hit, but deactivating it after having regained his equilibrium:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-34-index-2-page-14.html

And of course he had a reason to deactivate the KKx2, it's the first thing he explains to Krillin, he couldn't use it as you say in the earth:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-33-index-2-page-2.html

Learn your facts (or be honest, at this point it's impossible to tell if it's ignorance or simply you lying as much as you can).

Yes, because showing up with nearly everyone being above you doesn't make Goku pathetic. Goku showed up with a Chi significantly higher than everyone else's (sans Freeza), and he had no aura. It's a very straight-forward sequence.

Yes, because Goku should have quit the fight against Ginyu as soon as Ginyu said he had 120.000 of power instead of using the KK, right? Lol, he showed with a Chi significantly higher than anyone else's thanks to the KKx10, and he doesn't have an aura like in the whole fight while he is using the KKx10.

Um, no. Freeza isn't using a technique that raises his power 10 fold. His 100% is entirely his own power.

So what? This changes absolutely nothing. Firstly, if Goku had mastered the KKx10 to a point where he could use it non-stop, it doesn't mater if the KK isn't his real strength, it's still something he can achieve without forcing his body (heck, in fact, Freezer was forcing his body much more than Goku with the KKx10, and he was still warming up).

Goku slowly drew out his power and it resulted in his power doubling. That's the point of the scene. To show Ginyu his power. He never fought with any partial level of Kaio-Ken. Not only does that contradict the entire point of the technique, but it needlessly complicates things for no reason.

And who said anything about a partial level of KK (that I'm sure it would be possible, but that I haven't even mentioned). I'm saying that Goku could be using the KKx10 without using all his power, like he did in front of Ginyu.

And until here, it's really tiring to "debate" with someone that is obtuse on purpose and that will consciously lie before admitting being wrong.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

As if I really care about what someone who believes Freeza>Semi-Cell has to say. Your opinion on what type of debater I am is utterly irrelevant. The point of view you display is beyond ridiculous and not worth taking seriously, anyway. Lol. Thank goodness I can ignore the rest of that post.