The Invisible Kaio-Ken doesn't exist

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Akira Toriyama: You’re terrible to say that, Torishima-san. Right around then was when the Androids No. 19 and No. 20 appeared. You weren’t my editor or anything anymore, but you specifically called me to say “I thought that the enemies had finally come, but aren’t these just a geezer and a fatso?” (laughs) In truth, I hadn’t had plans for anyone but No. 19 and No. 20 to appear. But there was no helping it, so I brought out No. 17 and No. 18. Then you called me up and said “What, this time it’s just some brats?” So I brought out Cell. (laughs)

These villains were supposed to be stronger than Freeza according to Toriyama but it turns out that they're even weaker than 50% Freeza according to Freezamite.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

I wonder, if goku was at 300,000 and vegeta was over 2 mill at namek saga how can they be so close in the android saga?And besides ,Trunks (according to you) is equal to namek goku so he is about 15,000,000.They are both weaker than Namek vegeta.3 yrs later,Goku is rivals with vegeta and vegeta was 2 mill+in namek saga now in android saga he is at least 4 mill.
So in short,namek goku 300,000 4 yrs later , ~4,000,000
Very very sick

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I wonder, if goku was at 300,000 and vegeta was over 2 mill how can they be so close at the android saga?

Goku was using KK10x on the whole time!!!

 

[KyuubiAhri]

I just wanted to say this:
Namek goku:300,000
KKx10:3,000,000
Ssj-15,000,000

Vegeta-2,400,000


Trunks-300,000 (equal to namek goku) (this is what freezasmite believes in (i don't))

Android arc:
Goku:4 mill+
Vegeta:4 mill+

Now this is the issue: The gap between Namek goku and Android goku Is Huge.But it has to be because he is close to vegeta in android arc.
Maybe he was using Kaioken 10x....but........ :molest THAT' will make hi's ssj much weaker than vegeta's

 

[freezamite]

Akira Toriyama: You’re terrible to say that, Torishima-san. Right around then was when the Androids No. 19 and No. 20 appeared. You weren’t my editor or anything anymore, but you specifically called me to say “I thought that the enemies had finally come, but aren’t these just a geezer and a fatso?” (laughs) In truth, I hadn’t had plans for anyone but No. 19 and No. 20 to appear. But there was no helping it, so I brought out No. 17 and No. 18. Then you called me up and said “What, this time it’s just some brats?” So I brought out Cell. (laughs)

These villains were supposed to be stronger than Freeza according to Toriyama but it turns out that they're even weaker than 50% Freeza according to Freezamite.

Hahahahahah okay, we can use Toriyama's interviews now? Fine, I like it, but let's do it well.
Firstly let's see what he is saying here. Before including those androids in a chapter, Toriyama sent the designs to his editors. What Toriyama is saying is that his editors didn't like his designs for the "final enemy" of the saga, so he had to adapt the script to that. In other words, yes, Toriyama may have intended for 19 and 20 to be stronger than Freezer, but then his editor told him that those couldn't be the strongest foes in the androids saga, so he adapted the script to that and made them weaker than he had intended.

And the same goes for 17 and 18. In a world where Cell hadn't existed they may had been stronger than Freezer and maybe the SSJ2 would've been needed to defeat them. But once the editor told Toriyama to give the main spot to a different enemy, of course he adapted the whole plot of the saga to reflect that. In fact, I remember an interview he made about Cell where he said that he didn't want Cell to transform. Does that mean that 1st form Cell is stronger than Super-Vegeta, because in case Cell didn't transform, Vegeta surely wouldn't have been the one to defeat him?
What matters is what we have in the manga, not what Toriyama firstly intended to do but in the end couldn't do because the editors didn't let him do it.

But since we've started to use interviews from Toriyama, let me use that interview of him where he says SSJ Goku was only as strong as KKx10 Goku. Not that he intended it to be that strong but the editor obliged him to change his plans, one that actually says that he drew SSJ Goku and the fight in Namek with a 10x multiplier in mind, a mulitplier that's coherent with the fact that SSJ Goku could barely match an injured/weakened Freezer:

At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that’s a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then.

Daizenshuu's 50x multiplier was extravagant to Toriyama, because he clearly drew the scene with the intent of making SSJ Goku only as strong as KKx10 Goku. And he isn't talking about his rejected ideas here, he is talking about what he finally drew :wink:

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Without the ''Invinsible KK'' Goku can never surpass Vegeta.

 

[freezamite]

Without the ''Invinsible KK'' Goku can never surpass Vegeta.

Hey, I'm not the one saying Goku is using an invisible KK, it's Kaito!
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-14.html

And yes, Goku never reached Vegeta's level in his base state, that's why he was a low rank saiyan and Vegeta a high one.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Without the ''Invinsible KK'' Goku can never surpass Vegeta.

Hey, I'm not the one saying Goku is using an invisible KK, it's Kaito!
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-14.html

And yes, Goku never reached Vegeta's level in his base state, that's why he was a low rank saiyan and Vegeta a high one.

Yup during the fight against Freeza not before the fight lol.

 

[freezamite]

Without the ''Invinsible KK'' Goku can never surpass Vegeta.

Hey, I'm not the one saying Goku is using an invisible KK, it's Kaito!
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-14.html

And yes, Goku never reached Vegeta's level in his base state, that's why he was a low rank saiyan and Vegeta a high one.

Yup during the fight against Freeza not before the fight lol.

He didn't activate the KK in the middle of the fight against Freezer, because otherwise we would've seen it. When Toriyama made Kaito explain Goku was already using the KKx10, that applied to the whole fight since Goku arrived there, otherwise feel free to show me the page where Goku says "Kaioh Ken x10" and activates it, because I haven't seen it.
Maybe Toriyama changed his mind about the subject at the middle of the fight, maybe he decided to hide the fact that Goku was already using the KKx10 to surprise the reader (I don't think he improvised this since he already mentioned the KKx10 even before Goku arrived at Namek, and he clearly reserved it for the fight against Freezer), the thing is, Goku never activates any KK in the middle of the fight and the KKx10 aura is never drawn (not even when Kaito tells us Goku is using it).

I just wanted to say this:
Namek goku:300,000
KKx10:3,000,000
Ssj-15,000,000

Vegeta-2,400,000


Trunks-300,000 (equal to namek goku) (this is what freezasmite believes in (i don't))

Android arc:
Goku:4 mill+
Vegeta:4 mill+

Now this is the issue: The gap between Namek goku and Android goku Is Huge.But it has to be because he is close to vegeta in android arc.
Maybe he was using Kaioken 10x....but........ :molest THAT' will make hi's ssj much weaker than vegeta's

That's not my stance on the subject. Firstly, SSJ Goku is a bit below 3 millions as well, the 50x multiplier for the SSJ is a mistake in my opinion since Freezer was weakened when he decided to fight with his full power and he managed to match SSJ Goku's strength.
The thing is, base Goku wasn't able to evolve his base state much further than those 300k units because his base state limit had to be reached before he could turn into a SSJ or in the process of doing so.
Now, how did he manage to equal (and even surpass later in the Cell saga) SSJ Vegeta's power if his base state was much lower? Well, it al revolves around his control and mastering of the ki.
We know that the SSJ state implies a nervousness state for the body that disrupts the Ki (like what happened to Nappa when he was owned by Goku) that means a lower overall strength than what should be possible (mystic Gohan is just a SSJ wihtout the drawbacks of becoming a SSJ). Thats why a FP SSJ was much stronger than a regular SSJ, because the FP SSJ had that nervousness/stress reduced to a high degree, which allowed the SSJs to reach higher levels of strengths.

Now, the thing is that Goku was always at a much higher level than anyone else (only Krilin came close to him) when it came to controlling his Ki. SSJ Goku in the androids saga, while still not controlled to a degree that could be considered full power, surely had a much higher degree of Ki mastering than SSJ Vegeta who besides being a novice SSJ wasn't as good as Goku at controlling his Ki.
It's not that Goku increased his base state enough to match Vegeta's, it's that his higher control over his ki allowed him to have a more efficient SSJ form that compensated that huge gap. That's how I see it.

 

[Victorious]

As far as strain is concerned.

Goku's Kaioken x 10 vs Freeza is roughly equivalent in strain to his standard Kaioken x 2 on Earth vs Vegeta. IE it's minimally straining but he can fight for long periods of time in it. But like every fight he starts off in base first.

Goku's Kaioken x 20 vs Freeza is roughly equivalent in strain to his Kaioken x 4 on Earth vs Vegeta. IE he can only do it for one time and then he's done and it's absurdly straining and wrecks his body.


Of course Goku mostly fought Vegeta in a Kaioken x 3 on Earth..and that would be equalivanet in strain vs Freeza as a hypothetical kaioken x 15 IMO. But there was no point for Goku to ever go into a Kaioken x 15 vs Freeza. It would have been shot to shit....he still appeared to be moderately weaker than 50% Freeza in a Kaioken x 20..so KKx15 was unnecessary and pointless. His Kaioken x 20 wasnt even enough.

 

[Victorious]

FreezaMite you are a fucking troll. post Ginyu zenkai Goku on Namek is weaker than 1st form Freeza? LMAO.

He blew Vegeta's mind while he was just standing around.

Base Goku post Ginyu zenkai >>> Vegeta post Dende zenkai >> 3rd form Freeza >> Piccolo fused with Nail > 2nd form Freeza > 1,000,000.


Base Goku vs Freeza being 300,000 is laughable.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

FreezaMite you are a fucking troll. post Ginyu zenkai Goku on Namek is weaker than 1st form Freeza? LMAO.

He blew Vegeta's mind while he was just standing around.

Base Goku post Ginyu zenkai >>> Vegeta post Dende zenkai >> 3rd form Freeza >> Piccolo fused with Nail > 2nd form Freeza > 1,000,000.


Base Goku vs Freeza being 300,000 is laughable.

He was using kaioken 10x before he arrived in the battlefield, :rape

 

[SuperDragoon]

>Post easily debunks argument people gave up a decade ago
>Troll still tries to prove it with asinine arguments yet somehow he's on the author's side.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

FreezaMite you are a fucking troll. post Ginyu zenkai Goku on Namek is weaker than 1st form Freeza? LMAO.

He blew Vegeta's mind while he was just standing around.

Base Goku post Ginyu zenkai >>> Vegeta post Dende zenkai >> 3rd form Freeza >> Piccolo fused with Nail > 2nd form Freeza > 1,000,000.


Base Goku vs Freeza being 300,000 is laughable.

He was using kaioken 10x before he arrived in the battlefield, :rape

The Kaioken he shower to Ginyu was times 10 and he forgot to shut it down all the time

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I miss making posts like this.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, I also miss reading good posts like this. Even before it getting bumped I went back and reread it just so you see how amazing it was.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

In the very same page Kaito says Goku is using the KKx10... Goku is drawn WITHOUT AN AURA.
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-14.html

Isn't it so hard to believe that Toriyama just forgot to draw the aura?

 

[Flame]

I agree with everything you said. I honestly had never even heard of people saying Goku was using KKx10 prior to the post-"warm up."

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

FreezaMite you are a fucking troll. post Ginyu zenkai Goku on Namek is weaker than 1st form Freeza? LMAO.

He blew Vegeta's mind while he was just standing around.

Base Goku post Ginyu zenkai >>> Vegeta post Dende zenkai >> 3rd form Freeza >> Piccolo fused with Nail > 2nd form Freeza > 1,000,000.


Base Goku vs Freeza being 300,000 is laughable.

He was using kaioken 10x before he arrived in the battlefield, :rape

The Kaioken he shower to Ginyu was times 10 and he forgot to shut it down all the time

In other words, Goku was weaker than Vegeta without the Kaioken 10x.

 

[Jerk Store]

Why is this a thing?