The Ki Blast Dilemma

[p123]

If you want a correlating list, you must address the ki blast issue.

Piccolo states that Goku's Kamehameha against Vegeta was complete trash. Although Piccolo wasn't technically there to see it, I guess it's assumed that it hasn't increased much.

Let's not forget that not so long ago, Goku was calling his Kamehameha, the Super Kamehameha, also just the saga before, Goku had an amazing 2.2x amp on this attack.

So if Piccolo considers 2.2x a trash amp, his amp must be higher and then Cell has to be even higher to tank it.

I discarded the 2.2x boost and found much more success with this...


Original Kamehameha 1.33x
Super Kamehameha 1.5x
Light of Death 2x
Light Grenade 2x
Andriods Saga KHH / FF 2.5x


These worked out decently. I did run into some issues though.


Piccolo's Light Grenade can't be too powerful or else you will run into major troubles with the Base Saiyans vs Androids levels in the Buu Saga. If you make Cell >>> Piccolo, you will end up with Base Trunks >> 18. This only applies for 50% Goku > Grade 3 Trunks people though.

Galick Gun > Kamehameha. Goku is supposed to be superior to Vegeta by quite a margin, yet their attacks balance out. Kaioken could be disrupting Goku's ability to amp a bit, but I think Vegeta's amp is just higher. Vegeta knows Goku is stronger, yet is still surprised that Goku can match his blast.

Cell is able to tank Vegeta in a way that marks at least a 2x difference in power. Vegeta's Final Flash has to eclipse this significantly to make it work.


Alright, I think I have a good feel for majority of the issues, but honestly, this is just surface level.

 

[SSJ2]

Original Kamehameha 1.33x
Super Kamehameha 1.5x

Do you think such a small increase would warrant the reactions the Super KHH got? I'm not so sure...

 

[ahill1]

What about Piccolo Junior not being significantly injured from Goku's super KMHMH?

 

[SSJ2]

Idk, ki attacks are weird. Vegeta takes pretty well no damage from Kaioken x4 Goku KHH.

 

[p123]

It's actually quite a large increase. 1.33x is 88% of 1.5x. That's the difference of being equals, to being almost hopelessly outmatched.

I think we vastly overestimate the increases necessary to bring fear and shock to the characters. A 1.1x boost is actually quite a power up in this world. A 1.25x boost in power is nearly God mode. Most character who have that gap expect to be able to end the match quite immediately.

 

[p123]

For Piccolo Junior, you could say that Goku held back a little on it because he didn't want to kill Kami, but all in all, the Super Kamehameha is not supposed to be all that powerful from what I'm seeing. The ki blasts are overhyped early on. None seem to show the ability to decide a match on it's own.

With Vegeta and the Kamehameha, that one is difficult. Most cases, that kills the character. Instead he goes for a ride which he is able to get off. I guess you could say that Goku's power was waning with Kaioken and it's only decently stronger than what he had before. Even more reason to get rid of the 2.2x boost here.

Kaioken x3 Goku 24,000
~ Kamehameha 36,000

Kaioken x4 Goku 28,000
~ Kamehameha 42,000

Vegeta 18,000
~ Galick Gun 36,000



As you can see, these numbers are more much reasonable. Still hard to swallow, just not as hard to swallow.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

50% Freeza being able to stop the Kaioken x20 Kamehameha with one hand for a little bit is also a good reason to think that the 2.2x boost was retconned.

 

[SSJ2]

I guess you could say that Goku's power was waning with Kaioken and it's only decently stronger than what he had before.

Nice explanation.

 

[p123]

Definitely for Kaioken.

I have it like this...

Kaioken x20 Goku 150,000,000
~ Kamehameha 200,000,000

50% Freeza 175,000,000
60% Freeza 200,000,000


I think Freeza increased his power a bit, which helps explain why Goku knows that Freeza wasn't bluffing about his strength.

I think the Kaioken probably reduces Goku's amp a bit, but as a whole, I think the 2.2x is a travesty. It's simply too high.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

1. Piccolo's Light Grenade can't be too powerful or else you will run into major troubles with the Base Saiyans vs Androids levels in the Buu Saga. If you make Cell >>> Piccolo, you will end up with Base Trunks >> 18. This only applies for 50% Goku > Grade 3 Trunks people though.

2. Galick Gun > Kamehameha. Goku is supposed to be superior to Vegeta by quite a margin, yet their attacks balance out. Kaioken could be disrupting Goku's ability to amp a bit, but I think Vegeta's amp is just higher. Vegeta knows Goku is stronger, yet is still surprised that Goku can match his blast.

3. Cell is able to tank Vegeta in a way that marks at least a 2x difference in power. Vegeta's Final Flash has to eclipse this significantly to make it work.

Where are the issues?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

What about Piccolo Junior not being significantly injured from Goku's super KMHMH?

I have the theory of the opposing blast cushioning the damage in a beam struggle.

 

[p123]

That is quite possible, didn't it occur with Piccolo as well?

 

[Victorious]

I like the Kaioken disrupts amplification theory. Because KKx20 Goku should have hurt Freeza more you'd think if it's really that high.

 

[ahill1]

Now that I think about it, taking a defensive instance can protect you from an attack way higher than your full power. Piccolo Junior barely took damage from Goku's Super KMHMH and he was seen in a block position. Goku also barely took damage from Piccolo's Bakurikimaha (which seems to be even more amplified than Goku's KMHMH)... and he was also in a block position. It's like if being in a block position amplifies one's defense, even though the "amplified thing" was related to concentrating your power in a single point, which might let this idea in a not comfortable place definition-wise.

Blocking and deflection seems to be not so impressive as well: Piccolo deflected 2nd form Freeza's blast despite being barely stronger than him, the same way Goku blocked initial form Freeza's blast and in that case he was weaker.

So I think what's impressive here is tanking the attack, without taking a defensive position or deflecting if, just flat out tanking. That'd make you higher than the amplified chi blast IMO.

Goku's KMHMH against Freeza 50% was also quick charged (he released it right after putting his hands in the KMHMH position), so I don't think it had that good of amplification.

 

[ChulpaBatman]

I think Ki blasts are inconsistent and making sense of them becomes a futile endeavor as the author just didn't put alot of thought into it.

 

[p123]

Chulpa you truly are a fool for your post considering what it follows. Probably the best breakdown on ki blasts ever by ahill and followed by your absolute nonsense. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Ahill, I have to congratulate you, you just opened up a thought that's always been there, but never fully understood. It makes perfect sense. Whenever in trouble, always think about real fighting.

In real fighting, if you get hit with a Tyron Woodley bomb to the face, you are fucking done. Knocked out cold. However, if you put your arms up and block it on your forearms, hardly anything will come of it. Since it's so powerful, perhaps you will be a little bruised, but in terms of concussive damage, you will be just fine. Deflecting would be like slipping a punch, you are catching the right angle, it kind of takes the power of it. I'm sure the size of the blast is big too. To slightly alter a small blast, no matter the power, is different from deflecting a huge blast. Probably like slipping a normal sized human fist and slipping a gigantic Andre the Giant fist. Same power, speed, different way to deal with it.

It explains why Piccolo and Vegeta are able to take those blasts. Is Vegeta in a defensive posture too or no? Also Withheld's logic on the blast being somewhat cushioned by their own attack may play a part as well. Great post ahill.

 

[ahill1]

Thanks P. And yeah, I think the "block position" comes off as a good explanation, in those two feats which we label as "inconsistency" they were defending themselves with their arms. I remember Majin Vegeta changing into a block position to when Fat Boo released that huge explosion and he wasn't so much fucked up.

When Piccolo was training Gohan and was attacking him I remember green man saying something like "do you call that a defense? Concentrate your chi!!", which might help this case a bit too. When they put their arms like that with the forearms protecting their face, then they are basically concentrating their chi there, or something like this I guess.

Vegeta wasn't in a block position when getting hit by the KMHMH, but I think withheld's theory is far enough, in which Goku's KMHMH loses a bit of effect by Vegeta's attack.

I don't think that's the case in the 23rd Budokai though. Piccolo's blast seemed pretty shit compared to Goku's KMHMH and was instantly disintegrated.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I like the Kaioken disrupts amplification theory. Because KKx20 Goku should have hurt Freeza more you'd think if it's really that high.

Not necessarily. Goku had received a lot of spanking by the time he tried 20x KK...

Goku (max)- 100
Goku (out of breath)- 90
Goku (more spanking)- 80
Goku (20x KK)- 1.600
Goku (20x KK/KHH)- 2.400
50% Freeza- 2.350
100% Freeza- 4.700
SSJ Goku- 5.000

 

[p123]

It's stated that Goku's amp was shit during the Saiyan Saga. I'd assume it's the same thing against Freeza. And I bet the reason it's shit is because of Kaioken. It's the only way to make sense of it all.

 

[Void]

Pretty sure Vegeta survived the KKx4 Kamehameha so easily because it never detonated.