The Ki Blast Dilemma

[ahill1]

But why Cell would have Kaioken + KMHMH amplification? It makes more sense for him to have the amplification Goku had against Raditz IMO.

I'd like to see the Kaioken disrupting the KMHMH's amplifier since it was already amplifying Goku's power by a set amount. If the KMHMH amplifies Goku's power by 2.2x and Goku is already amplifying his power by 2x via Kaioken, then the KMHMH would amplify Goku's Kaioken power by 1.1x. But that only does seem valid for Kaioken, not Kaioken x3 for example, which already amplifies Goku's power by a bigger amount than the KMHMH.

 

[p123]

Well when talking to Cell, the time period from which the cells were taken from is when Vegeta arrived.

All in all, we can safely disprove the 2.2x boost by this chain...

Raditz (Initial) > Goku/Piccolo Unweighted > Goku/Piccolo Weighted

Goku and Piccolo have some sort of a chance if they go 2 on 1 without weights. Goku and Piccolo are probably somewhere around 75-80% of Raditz's initial power. If Goku had a 2.2x blast in his arsenal, this fight would be a piece of cake. They wouldn't be so desperate. Goku simply does not have a 2.2x blast.

He has a blast that can probably damage Raditz's initial power, but probably can't completely finish it. They are going to have to work very hard to defeat Raditz, a 2.2x boost is something more suitable for Vegeta's Final Flash or something like that, nah, Final Flash needs to be around 3.

And I agree, the more amplified he is in Kaioken, the more intense it is to maintain, the weaker the amplification.

 

[p123]

This is true people. We cannot forget Super Saiyan Gohan vs Fat Buu's Kamehameha now. Clearly, Fat Buu is stupidly more powerful. Gohan survived. This explains why Vegeta survived. Gohan needed Kaioshin to detonate the blast, but the detonation is everything. Unless it bleeds right through you, then you are stupidly fucked.

 

[ahill1]

By how much the Kaioken disrupt the amplified chi blast?

 

[p123]

Right now I'm going with this...

Kamehameha 1.33x
Super Kamehameha 1.50x

I think the Kaioken Kamehameha probably reverts Goku back to a 1.25x amplification or something. There's really no reason for it to be all that strong. Let's not forget that 50% Freeza catches it with his hand.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

It's stated that Goku's amp was shit during the Saiyan Saga. I'd assume it's the same thing against Freeza. And I bet the reason it's shit is because of Kaioken. It's the only way to make sense of it all.

Piccolo just compared it to the Android Arc KHH.

 

[p123]

Very well could be the case. I am overplaying my hand here, I'm trying to make it work reasonably. But you are right, any Saiyan Saga level Kamehameha should be just fine. For me, I prefer to use the Kaioken multiplier, which I also feel is lower.

Piccolo's statement is ridiculously impossible to make work.

 

[ahill1]

Right now I'm going with this...

Kamehameha 1.33x
Super Kamehameha 1.50x

I think the Kaioken Kamehameha probably reverts Goku back to a 1.25x amplification or something. There's really no reason for it to be all that strong. Let's not forget that 50% Freeza catches it with his hand.

The KMHMH amplifies the base power, right? If the Kaioken amplifies the base power by 2, shouldn't the KMHMH be 1.1x Kaioken?

 

[p123]

That doesn't work because it becomes pointless to do Kaioken Kamehamehas. Kaioken has to still allow for a superior blast over the non Kaioken Kamehameha.

Base Goku 8,000
~ Kamehameha 12,000 (1.5x amp)

KKx2 Goku 16,000
~ Kamehameha 20,000 (1.25x amp)

I think this is how it should work.

 

[ahill1]

So do you think Piccolo is referring to the KMHMH disrupted by the Kaioken rather than the one used vs Raditz?

 

[p123]

Well the picture showcases Piccolo dead on the ground. So it has to be talking about when Vegeta was there. Right? Check out that picture in that panel.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Cell said he acquired Goku's cells when Vegeta came to Earth. That's the only time he could've been referring to.

 

[ahill1]

Hmm, so Cell's KMHMH might have a relatively low multiplier if we consider the Kaioken disrupting theory. But Piccolo's Gekiretsu Kodan must still have a multiplier higher than the Makankosappo, so it doesn't help if you want to have a minimalist approach.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Hmm, so Cell's KMHMH might have a relatively low multiplier if we consider the Kaioken disrupting theory. But Piccolo's Gekiretsu Kodan must still have a multiplier higher than the Makankosappo, so it doesn't help if you want to have a minimalist approach.

Not necessarily. Special beam canon took a long time to charge, so Light Grenade can have a smaller multiplier and still be considered a
better technique overall.

 

[Future Warrior]

Goku - 8,000
Kamehameha - 12,000

Kaio-Ken x3 Goku - 24,000
Kamehameha - 27,000

It becomes a way weaker amplification imo.

 

[p123]

I like this theory. Kaioken provides diminishing returns on the Kamehameha.

Piccolo's Light Grenade does not have to be superior to the Light of Death. As mentioned, charging times are a factor, although the manga doesn't really provide us with much insight on that. Either way, it should be much longer.

Light of Death does not have to be more than 2x. Raditz isn't terribly stronger than them, sure, he's probably a hell of a lot stronger, but no fucking way is he 3x stronger man. That's baloney. Ki blasts simply are not that strong.

 

[ChulpaBatman]

I like this theory. Kaioken provides diminishing returns on the Kamehameha.

Piccolo's Light Grenade does not have to be superior to the Light of Death. As mentioned, charging times are a factor, although the manga doesn't really provide us with much insight on that. Either way, it should be much longer.

Light of Death does not have to be more than 2x. Raditz isn't terribly stronger than them, sure, he's probably a hell of a lot stronger, but no fucking way is he 3x stronger man. That's baloney. Ki blasts simply are not that strong.

I am confused. How is Raditz not 3x stronger than Goku and Piccolo? Raditz hovers around 1200-1500. Its likely he was just pulling his punches and toying with them. Are you thinking Goku was maybe actually around 600-700 and his KKH went up to nearly 1k? That I can get on board with.

 

[p123]

Exactly.