THE LAST ONE

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm only including Ki blasts I consider important bc they're mostly inconsistent af

Ready?

Part 1 (No Scouters)

Spoiler

Dragon Ball Hunt

Goku: 50
~ Oozaru: 500

Bulma: 4

Yamcha: 45

Master Roshi: 150
~ MAX Power Kamehameha: 750

Gyuumao: 75
Chi-Chi: 30

Kuririn: 30

21st Tenkaichi Budokai

Goku: 100
~ Tail regrown: 150
~ Oozaru (Weakened): 500

Kuririn: 90
Yamcha: 60

Orin Temple Bully: 50

Ranfan: 40
Bacterian: 45

Giran: 75
Namu: 135

Jackie Chun: 90
~ Serious vs Kuririn: 100
~ Serious vs Goku: 150
~ MAX Power Kamehameha: 750

Red Ribbon Saga

Goku: 160
~ Post Muscle Tower: 180
~ Post Karin's training: 750

Col Silver: 10

Sgt Metallic: 135
Ninja Murasaki: 15
Android 8: 800

Buyon: 120
General White: 6.5

Kuririn: 90

Pirate Robot: 120
General Blue: 135

Bora: 100

Tao Pai Pai: 300
~ Full power: 675

Commander Red: 5

Commander Black: 200
~ Battle Jacket: 600

Uranai Baba's Tournament

Goku (Match level): 375

Goku beating Tao is a big deal even after he beats Gohan and Chappa, so sounds like Tao > them. In the 22TB Goku tells Kuririn he's using FP without specifying it's match level FP, so I guess the same happened here.

Kuririn: 90
Yamcha: 60

Dracula: 40
Invisible Man: 50

Mummy Man: 160
Akkuman: 240

Grandpa Gohan: 360

Pilaf's Mechas: 100 each
~ Merged: 300

22nd Tenkaichi Budokai

King Chappa: 400

Goku: 500
~ Full match level: 750
~ Battle level: 1,500

Kuririn: 500

Yamcha: 480

Jackie Chun: 540
~ Shirtless: 630
~ Unseen full power: 720

Man Wolf: 55
~ Man form: 5.5

Pamputto: 200

Master Tsuru: 600

Chaozu: 450

Tenshinhan: 540
~ Serious vs Jackie: 630
~ Initial vs Goku: 800
~ Full power: 1,400
~ Kikoho: 2,800

Piccolo Daimao Saga

Young Roshi/Tsuru: 1,000 each
Master Mutaito: 1,500

Goku: 1,650
~ Kamehameha: 2,200
~ Post Piccolo: 1,800
~ Post Choushinsui: 12,500
~ Full power: 18,000
~ Crippled: 6,000

Oozaru Punch brings him back to FP.

Yajirobe: 1,250

Master Karin: 1,750

Piano: 5
Cymbal: 500
Tambourine: 1,250
Drum: 2,500

Piccolo Daimao: 1,600
~ 40%: 3,000
~ 100%: 7,500
~ Young: 12,000
~ Full power: 18,000
~ Fatigued: 12,000

Mr. Popo: 30,000
Kami-Sama: 60,000

23rd Tenkaichi Budokai

King Chappa:

Goku (Weighted): 25,000
~ Unweighted: 40,000
~ Warming up: 100,000
~ Full power: 400,000
~ Super Kamehameha: 800,000
~ Crippled: 100,000

Tenshinhan: 24,000

Kuririn: 16,000
Yamcha: 15,000

Chaozu: 6,000
Yajirobe: 5,000
Chi-Chi: 4,000

Tao Pai Pai: 10,000
~ Super Dodonpa: 20,000

Shen: 60,000

Piccolo Jr: 18,000
~ Powered up vs Kuririn: 24,000
~ Powered up vs Shen: 60,000
~ Warming up vs Goku: 100,000
~ Full power: 400,000
~ Masenko: 600,000
~ Explosive Wave: 1,000,000
~ Fatigued: 100,000

Saiyan Saga

Spoiler

Raditz Arrives

Farmer with Shotgun: 5

Raditz: 1,250
~ Injured: 500

Goku (Weighted): 334
~ Unweighted: 416
~ Kamehameha: 924

Piccolo (Weighted): 322
~ Unweighted: 408
~ Makkankosappo: 1,330

Gohan: 1
~ Nervous: 710
~ Enraged: 1,307
~ Oozaru: 7,100

Kuririn: 206
Master Roshi: 139

Yamcha: 177
Tenshinhan: 250
Chaozu: 153
Yajirobe: 148

Enma Daioh: 2,000
Kaio-Sama: 3,500
Bubbles: 1,000

Battle against Nappa and Vegeta

Gohan: 981
~ Full power: 1,260
~ Enraged: 2,520
~ Masenko: 2,800
~ Oozaru (Injured): 10,000

Kuririn: 1,083
~ Full power: 1,500
~ Kakusandan: 1,875
~ Injured: 500

Piccolo: 1,220
~ Full power: 2,000
~ Makkankosappo: 2,500

Tenshinhan: 1,600
~ Kikoho: 2,400

Chaozu: 1,000
~ Self destruction: 2,000

Yamcha: 1,350

Goku: 5,000
~ Full power: 8,100
~ Kaio-Ken x2: 16,200
~ Kaio-Ken x3: 24,300
~ Kaio-Ken x4: 32,400
~ Fatigued: 4,050
~ Crippled: 2

Yajirobe: 750

Genki-Dama: 100,000
~ Weakened: 50,000
~ Hitting Vegeta: 5,000

Saibamen: 1,200 each

Nappa: 4,000
~ Full power: 8,000

Vegeta: 18,000
~ Garlic Gun: 24,000
~ Post beam struggle: 12,000
~ Post Ki ball: 6,000
~ Oozaru: 60,000
~ Post Oozaru: 3,000
~ Post Genki-Dama: 1,500
~ Crippled: 4.5

Freeza Saga

Spoiler

Dragon Ball Hunt on Namek

Kuririn (Weighted): 1,400
~ Unweighted: 1,540

Gohan: 1,600
~ Enraged: 3,200

Namekians: Between 1,000 and 3,000
Dende: 10

Goku: 10,000

Vegeta: 16,000
~ Full power: 24,000
~ Post Zarbon: 30,000

Freeza's Soldiers: Between 1,000 and 2,000

Appule: 2,500
~ Full power: 720,000
~ Lord form:

Kui: 18,000

Dodoria: 20,000

Zarbon: 21,000
~ Monster form: 28,000

Ginyu Tokusentai

Kuririn (Potential unlocked): 13,000
~ Post Recoome: 26,000

Gohan (Potential unlocked): 14,000
~ Post Recoome: 28,000

Vegeta: 30,000
~ Post Recoome: 60,000+

Tells Jeice and Freeza his power is constantly rising, which explains why he goes from fearing Ginyu to taking on Freeza.

Goku: 5,000
~ Bursts: 60,000
~ Powered up: 75,000
~ Full power: 90,000
~ Kaio-Ken x2: 180,000
~ Ginyu's body, injured: 120

Guldo: 10,000
Recoome: 40,000
Jeice: 40,000
Burta: 40,000

Captain Ginyu: 60,000
~ Powered up: 75,000
~ Full power: 120,000
~ Goku's body: 23,000

Nail: 42,000
Freeza: 424,000

Battle against Freeza

Dende (Potential unlocked): 1,000

Kuririn: 250,000

Gohan: 300,000
~ Enraged: 900,000
~ Healed by Dende: 1,000,000
~ Enraged again: 2,000,000
~ Masenko: 2,250,000

Piccolo (Weighted): 280,000
~ Merged with Nail: 1,400,000
~ Unweighted: 1,750,000

Fusing with Nail = 5x boost as per EML. Fits with manga bc Nail says fusion will make Piccolo many times stronger (ergo 3-9x) and he also says Kamiccolo ~ Freeza and that's a 2x boost, so 5x fits the best.

Vegeta: 500,000
~ Healed by Dende: 4,000,000
~ Planet Buster: 5,400,000

Goku: 6,000,000
~ Full power: 7,500,000
~ Kaio-Ken x10: 75,000,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 150,000,000
~ SSJ: 375,000,000

Genki-Dama: 225,000,000

Freeza: 424,000
~ Full power: 530,000
~ 2nd form: 1,060,000
~ Powered up: 1,350,000
~ Full power: 1,650,000
~ 3rd form: 2,500,000
~ True form: 4,500,000
~ Beating Vegeta/warm up vs Goku: 6,000,000
~ Serious vs Goku: 8,000,000
~ 50%: 180,000,000
~ 70%: 252,000,000
~ 100%: 360,000,000 and falling
~ Fatigued: 300,000,000

Cell Saga

Spoiler

The Future

Gohan: 10,800,000
~ SSJ: 540,000,000

Trunks: 4,000,000
~ SSJ: 200,000,000

Android 17 (40%): 480,000,000
~ 100%: 1,200,000,000

Android 18 (40%): 450,000,000
~ 100%: 1,125,000,000

Another Super Saiyan

Gohan: 1,000,000

Kuririn: 500,000
Tenshinhan: 300,000
Yamcha: 150,000
Chaozu: 30,000

Piccolo: 7,000,000
Vegeta: 8,000,000

Freeza (50%): 200,000,000
~ 100%: 400,000,000 (Doesn't buff up anymore thanks to robotics)

King Cold: 240,000,000

Trunks: 5
~ Full power: 12,000,000
~ SSJ: 600,000,000

Goku: 12,500,000
~ SSJ: 625,000,000

The Androids are Unleashed

Goku: 19,600,000
~ SSJ: 960,000,000
~ Sick: 640,000,000 and falling
~ Heart attack: 480,000,000

Piccolo (Suppressed): 16,000,000
~ Full power: 800,000,000

Gohan: 10,000,000

Kuririn: 5,000,000
Tenshinhan: 3,000,000
Yamcha: 1,500,000
Chaozu: 60,000

Vegeta: 20,000,000
~ SSJ: 1,000,000,000

Trunks: 18,000,000
~ SSJ: 900,000,000

Android 19: 400,000,000
~ Post absorptions: 600,000,000

Android 20: 500,000,000
~ Post absorptions: 650,000,000

Android 18: 1,5000,000,000

Android 17: 1,600,000,000

Cell's quest for perfection

Piccolo (Merged with Kami): 1,600,000,000
~ Light Grenade: 2,400,000,000

Android 16: 3,600,000,000

Tenshinhan: 3,000,000
~ Shin Kikoho: 900,000,000

Vegeta: 150,000,000
~ SSJ: 7,500,000,000
~ 2nd Grade: 15,000,000,000
~ Final Flash: 37,500,000,000


Trunks: 144,000,000
~ SSJ: 7,200,000,000
~ 2nd Grade: 14,400,000,000
~ 3rd Grade: 72,000,000,000

Cell: 1,200,000,000
~ Post absorptions: 3,600,000,000
~ 2nd form: 7,200,000,000
~ Full power: 9,000,000,000
~ Perfect form: 30,000,000,000

Goku: 24,000,000
~ SSJ: 1,200,000,000
~ 2nd Grade: 2,400,000,000
~ 3rd Grade: 12,000,000,000
~ MSSJ (Post Rosat, 50%): 60,000,000,000

Cell Games

Mr. Satan: 6.66

Piccolo: 60,000,000,000

Trunks: 1,680,000,000
~ SSJ: 84,000,000,000

Vegeta: 1,680,000,000
~ SSJ: 84,000,000,000

Goku: 2,400,000,000
~ MSSJ (Warming up): 30,000,000,000
~ FPSSJ: 120,000,000,000
~ Kamehameha: 240,000,000,000
~ Fatigued: 24,000,000,000

Gohan: 3,600,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 180,000,000,000
~ SSJ2: 720,000,000,000

Cell (Warming up): 30,000,000,000
~ Vs Goku: 140,000,000,000
~ Vs Gohan: 180,000,000,000
~ Full power: 360,000,000,000
~ Post self destruction: 480,000,000,000

Not sure if Cell really powered up vs Gohan, but it fits the Boo Saga levels better so here it is. Also no buff listed because Cell was already weak as shit from the beating.

Cell Jrs: 84,000,000,000 each

Free the Future

Trunks: 1,680,000,000
~ SSJ: 84,000,000,000

Android 18: 1,125,000,000
Android 17: 1,200,000,000
Cell: 2,700,000,000

Boo Saga

Spoiler

Gohan: 2,400,000,000
~ SSJ: 120,000,000,000
~ SSJ2: 480,000,000,000

Goten: 1,600,000,000
~ SSJ: 80,000,000,000

Trunks: 1,680,000,000
~ SSJ: 84,000,000,000

Vegeta: 3,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 150,000,000,000
~ SSJ2: 600,000,000,000

Goku: 4,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 200,000,000,000
~ SSJ2: 800,000,000,000

Yamcha: 1,500,000
Kuririn: 4,500,000
Android 18: 1,500,000,000
Piccolo: 75,000,000,000

Videl: 6.7
~ Post training: 8.5

Mr. Satan: 6.66

Other Budokai fighters: 5~6

Kibito: 1,200,000,000
Shin: 120,000,000,000

Kibito is definitely weaker than Base Gohan, but I like to have him as close as possible since he might have given him a good fight. Kaioshin is as strong as CG Goku per EML.

Babidi: 1

Spopovich: 9
Yamu: 10

Pui Pui: 160,000,000 (Overrated trash)
Yakon: 1,600,000,000
Dabra: 480,000,000,000

Vegeta (Potential unlocked): 4,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 200,000,000,000
~ SSJ2: 800,000,000,000
~ Self destruction: 4,000,000,000,000

Majin Boo: 600,000,000,000
~ Powered up: 1,200,000,000,000
~ Full power: 3,000,000,000,000

SSJ3 Goku (80%): 3,200,000,000,000

Gotenks: 1,600,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 4,000,000,000,000

Gohan (Post Z Sword training): 4,500,000,000
~ SSJ (Unseen): 225,000,000,000
~ SSJ2 (Unseen): 900,000,000,000

Old Kaioshin: 120,000,000

Good Boo: 1,000,000,000,000
Evil Boo: 2,000,000,000,000

Gotenks (Post Rosat): 2,400,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 6,000,000,000,000
~ Kamikaze Ghosts: 12,000,000,000,000
~ SSJ2: 7,500,000,000,000
~ SSJ3: 15,000,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan: 22,500,000,000,000

Kibitoshin: 480,000,000,000

Tenshinhan: 3,750,000
Chaozu: 37,500

Super Boo: 7,500,000,000,000
~ Full power: 15,000,000,000,000
~ Gotenks absorbed: 30,000,000,000,000 and some
~ Gohan absorbed: 37,500,000,000,000 and some

Vegetto: 40,000,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 100,000,000,000,000,000

Buff Boo: 20,000,000,000,000

The Final Battle

Goku: 4,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 200,000,000,000
~ SSJ2: 800,000,000,000
~ SSJ3: 4,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 4,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 200,000,000,000
~ SSJ2: 800,000,000,000

Mr. Satan: 6.66
Mr. Boo: 3,000,000,000,000

Kid Boo: 4,000,000,000,000

Genki-Dama: 50,000,000,000,000

28th Tenkaichi Budokai

Retconned by DBS

 

[Power Level Guy]

Awesome, I look forward to checking this list. And this is the best idea you've had in a long time, be well my brother.

 

[SSJ2]

I find part 1 to be the most interesting to discuss. Having said that I don’t agree with your logic that power gaps should be treated differently back then.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I find part 1 to be the most interesting to discuss. Having said that I don’t agree with your logic that power gaps should be treated differently back then.

Bring on those beautiful, gorgeous, decimal numbers, baby!

 

[Power Level Guy]

So you are going with

Grade 3 Trunks > 50% Goku?

And Warm up Goku ~ 50% Goku?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I find part 1 to be the most interesting to discuss. Having said that I don’t agree with your logic that power gaps should be treated differently back then.

I think there’s no way around it. If Goku’s power is 400, then it is what it is.

And Warm up Goku ~ 50% Goku?

Not sure. 50% Goku and Cell happened to be close, but 50% Goku’s power is a big deal. I don’t think he used it vs Cell.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Not sure. 50% Goku and Cell happened to be close, but 50% Goku’s power is a big deal. I don’t think he used it vs Cell.

I think 50% Goku > Buff Cell/Trunks

And I think Cell (vs Vegeta) ~ Warm Up Goku

You have Cell using his buff power at the Cell Games initially?

If you are going to get rid of Kaioshin > Piccolo, why would you get rid of Base Saiyans > Piccolo. Now it's less extreme and you discard it for personal bias? Seems off.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah, there's a problem here I keep running into.

If you give Imperfect Cell and Semi-Perfect Cell the gaps we typically we do, we seem to be running out of room to make 50% Goku > Grade 3 Trunks. Because we are typically trying to fit all of this within the range for where we keep the Androids.

So this is an Androids on issue. Like no matter where you have the Androids, you are immediately on the clock in making all of these issues work.

Amazing how a 50x difference between the Androids and CG powers is cutting it very close lol. But true.

Numerically, I want 50% Goku less than Grade 3 Trunks, narratively speaking though, I want him significantly stronger for sure.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If you are going to get rid of Kaioshin > Piccolo, why would you get rid of Base Saiyans > Piccolo. Now it's less extreme and you discard it for personal bias? Seems off.

There is no solid evidence for Base Saiyans > Piccolo, and the opposite is implied narratively. Even in Super, after Saiyans achieve god-like power ups, Piccolo is still not inferior to Base Saiyans.

 

[Power Level Guy]

There is no solid evidence for Base Saiyans > Piccolo

Vegeta states he can win the tournament in Base. What are Piccolo’s feats that put him on a Super Saiyan level? One panel with a Cell Jr?

He’s weaker than Base RoF Gohan who can barely turn Super Saiyan. RoF Gohan has to be the weakest Gohan we’ve seen since the Androids Saga.

Piccolo is still not inferior to Base Saiyans.

He’s weaker than RoF Base Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta also thinks he can kill all the androids and win the Cell Games. He can think whatever he wants, that's very minor evidence.

The Base Saiyans are shown to be Android level in base. That was Piccolo's level before the Rosat, afterwards he's said to reach a whole new level. That alone places him at least a tier above them.

RoF Piccolo was written to be Zarbon/Dodoria level. And even then, Gohan needed SSJ beat that red guy.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Vegeta also thinks he can kill all the androids and win the Cell Games.

But the difference in those cases is that Vegeta was proven wrong there. In this case he’s proven right by the other evidence.

The Base Saiyans are shown to be Android level in base.

The Base Boys are already on par with Android 18 and this is Pre Rosat, where they acquired power in their Super Saiyan form on par with a Cell Junior.

The Base Adults are way stronger than a Base Saiyan of that level.

RoF Piccolo was written to be Zarbon/Dodoria level. And even then, Gohan needed SSJ beat that red guy.

Well Gohan is stated to be the strongest even pre-Super Saiyan.

So Piccolo is starting to rival the weakest Base Saiyan we’ve seen from the adults.

That’s all Piccolo was able to amount to. Toriyama most likely forgot he powered him up in the Rosat.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well I think EV convinced me of Base > Piccolo again… But there’s a problem. If this list is Z-only, why should I take evidence from Super?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Well I think EV convinced me of Base > Piccolo again… But there’s a problem. If this list is Z-only, why should I take evidence from Super?

Super is meant to inform us and clarify things that happened in Z. It comes from the original author or his blessing there’s not much we can do about it. We don’t have to spend all this time trying to power scale Super, but the evidence in Super is source material, higher than any guidebook or fan opinion no matter how well thought out.

Yeah Base > Piccolo is not even a debate among the community anymore. Piccolo has grown tremendously in power but he was nerfed heavily in the Buu Saga. These are the facts. To deny the facts to insert head canon because of personal preference is not logical. We have to remain logical.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Super is meant to inform us and clarify things that happened in Z.

Super is meant to tell a new story. It’s not a guidebook, and Toriyama doesn’t care about consistence.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Super is meant to tell a new story. It’s not a guidebook, and Toriyama doesn’t care about consistence.

It’s canon and it’s beyond a guidebook, it’s official source material. The author has the right to change his work however he wants. We don’t have to like it, but as of now this is how the story goes.

You can totally do a Z list without any influence from Super so long as you call it that.

What parts of Super are disturbing your Z logic? I don’t think anything has affected it so bad? Gogeta ~ Vegetto is easily explained and Kids ~ Cell Jrs isn’t bad at all.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But what’s a deliberate change and what’s a mistake? If he draws Piccolo with 5 fingers, does it mean Piccolo aways had 5 fingers?

Everything about Super’s existence disturbs Z logic. It’s beyond power scaling.

 

[Power Level Guy]

But what’s a deliberate change and what’s a mistake? If he draws Piccolo with 5 fingers, does it mean Piccolo aways had 5 fingers?

Are you talking about Trunks and Bulma having blue hair now?

Everything about Super’s existence disturbs Z logic. It’s beyond power scaling.

Well you don’t have to like it. Just take the evidence from Super and incorporate it into your Z power scaling. That’s all I really do now. I’m not interested in scaling Super but it helps me do Z.

What specific power scaling issues are bothering you so much? That effect Z?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Okay @Power Level Guy you win. I changed my list again to the old one we worked with. No guidebooks, Base > Piccolo, all that stuff. Can't outrun the truth. But after this I'm done. Never changing my mind again.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Okay @Power Level Guy you win. I changed my list again to the old one we worked with. No guidebooks, Base > Piccolo, all that stuff. Can't outrun the truth. But after this I'm done. Never changing my mind again.

Haha ok.

Have you joined me on the Piccolo > Kaioshin train yet? This one comes with the most blowback, but I think it's best.