The Way Piccolo Sensed Supreme Kai

[Evil Vegeta]

Neither do I. Piccolo already admitted it was hard to fight Kaioshin to begin with, which doesn't give me the impression that this is power-related.

Funny enough, that's pretty much what Vegeta said when he was unable to attack Whis. Vegeta couldn't actually sense his Chi normally and was surprised that it stopped him from attacking altogether.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

What do you think about the Daizenshuu stating Piccolo sensed a pretty big gap between his power and Kaioshin's?

It's about as valid as the one stating Kibito and Base Gohan are near equals, despite feats painting a very different picture.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes. And the response says he's as much of a God as Beerus and Kaioshin. His Godly status became clear once he could no longer be sensed. I don't see why he'd mention both Beerus and Kaioshin if neither shared the same trait (possessing God Chi) as Super Saiyan God Goku. That's why Whis made the statement to begin with. Goku didn't make a judgment on Kaioshin's Chi. All of his statements were based on intuition.

Vegeta could feel pressure coming from Whis despite being unable to gauge his power. Trunks could feel the pressure from Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta's power despite being unable to gauge. Same with Kaioshin. Everything said about Kaioshin was based on intuition. I don't see why you need to be powered-up to actually be sensed, either. Goku could tell Piccolo had became much stronger despite lounging around on Kami's Lookout. There isn't a single instance of Kaioshin or Kibito being sensed, but we actually seen Kibito immediately sensed Kaioshin's Chi despite how weakened he was.

What do you think about the Daizenshuu stating Piccolo sensed a pretty big gap between his power and Kaioshin's?

It adheres to the Kaioshin>Piccolo outcome that's in Piccolo's statement, so the entry itself isn't an issue. I just think Piccolo left the fight for reasons outside of being outclassed in raw power.

Super has also portrayed Pure Boo as the strongest form of Boo or Ultimate Gohan as a transformation, despite both being far from true in the manga. Stuff from Super that affect Z can be called into question, as Toei's staff is known for not caring much about coherence.

And nobody pointed how Kaioshin's Ki as being like a "pressure" or unable to sense at all. Piccolo actually sensed Kaioshin's Ki (What is reinforced in Daizenshuu 2) and Goku was about to teleport to the Kaioshin planet when trying to run away from Boo's planet buster. He even complains that the reason he can't teleport is because he can't teleport so many people at once, not because he can't teleport to Kaioshin's Ki.

If they're not putting out Ki while Gohan is, then Gohan's Ki will obviously be far more oustanding than theirs and will be the most noticeable, especially when even at full power Gohan is the strongest of the three. Nail's Ki was an ant compared to that of Freeza, Vegeta and the others, and Piccolo did not even notice him until he actually came across him while flying.

It's about as valid as the one stating Kibito and Base Gohan are near equals, despite feats painting a very different picture.

What feats? Piccolo never even fought in the Boo Arc, so there's nothing that actually contradicts him being far below Kaioshin.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

What feats? Piccolo never even fought in the Boo Arc, so there's nothing that actually contradicts him being far below Kaioshin.

For one, kids VS #18. Unless assuming the suit magically made them several times weaker, there isn't much of a way to have the Base Saiyans leagues above #17/18 tier, which Piccolo should be after getting a large enough boost from the Rosat for Goku to comment on it, and most evidence would point to Shin being below the Base Saiyans.

There's also Piccolo's feat of lasting long against a Cell Junior when a tired Goku couldn't, despite Goku having still been capable of injuring an equally as fatigued Cell not long before and both still being treat as highly relevant powers. I may be opening up a can of worms by mentioning this though and turn this into another Piccolo VS Cell Jr. thread, but such was inevitable in a Piccolo VS Shin type of topic.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention]

Super has also portrayed Pure Boo as the strongest form of Boo or Ultimate Gohan as a transformation, despite both being far from true in the manga. Stuff from Super that affect Z can be called into question, as Toei's staff is known for not caring much about coherence.

A lot of the stuff in Z (particularly the Boo saga) isn't exactly coherent, anyway. Outside of Vegeta admitting in a questionable way that they were unable to gauge Kaioshin, the only person shown sensing him is Kibito. Piccolo was starting to realize who Kaioshin was. The fact that he was surprised at his inability to attack Kaioshin shows it's more than raw power in play.

And nobody pointed how Kaioshin's Ki as being like a "pressure" or unable to sense at all.

What Piccolo pointed out is being unable to attack Kaioshin based on the feeling he was getting from him. None of that points to him simply being scared because Kaioshin was more powerful. Even Piccolo is questioning why he can't fight Kaioshin, which is basically what Vegeta did when he got the strange feeling from Whis. He did sense Whis, but he couldn't sense Whis. That's why he said "It's like a Ki without Ki". When it comes to Kaioshin, they simply couldn't sense any power from him.

These guys are masters at suppression, so Vegeta ending his statement with "which we haven't even been able to estimate?" makes it seem like Vegeta is confused on why they can't gauge him. If it was just a matter of Kaioshin not fighting yet, then there's....nothing to question because it'd be clear.

Piccolo actually sensed Kaioshin's Ki (What is reinforced in Daizenshuu 2) and Goku was about to teleport to the Kaioshin planet when trying to run away from Boo's planet buster. He even complains that the reason he can't teleport is because he can't teleport so many people at once, not because he can't teleport to Kaioshin's Ki.

Goku teleporting actually has nothing to do with Kaioshin's world. We don't even know if that was where he was intending to go. Of course that's where Kaioshin ended up taking them, but that doesn't really say anything about Goku. Piccolo sensed a strange feeling from Kaioshin that made him unable to attack. The Daizenshuu is simply saying Piccolo sensed his power and left...when we're told right off the bat that Piccolo can't understand why he's unable to attack Kaioshin. I don't see why Piccolo can sense his power and yet everyone else can't sense him at all. The scene is more than just Piccolo backing down because of Kaioshin's power. He's trying to figure out his identity. This is shown when he approached him after their stare down backstage.

If they're not putting out Ki while Gohan is, then Gohan's Ki will obviously be far more oustanding than theirs and will be the most noticeable, especially when even at full power Gohan is the strongest of the three. Nail's Ki was an ant compared to that of Freeza, Vegeta and the others, and Piccolo did not even notice him until he actually came across him while flying.

Goku immediately realized Gohan wasn't with Kaio or anywhere near Enma's station upon sensing him. The fact that he knew Gohan (who'd undoubtedly have a much bigger Chi than Kaio ever would) wasn't with Kaio would mean he's scouting for familiarity in whatever area his Chi is located in. There was no familiarity because he was shown to be surprised that Kaioshin or Kibito were there. You don't need to be putting out a lot of power to be noticed. Goku quickly noticed Gohan's Chi, noticed that he wasn't with Kaio, yet didn't notice Kaioshin and Kibito until he arrived on the Kaioshin world. Simply put, Goku never sensed them at any point on Earth.

Kibito upon revival immediately sensed Kaioshin. Piccolo assumed Kaioshin was done in by Boo's blast and no one ever alluded to sensing him afterwards whatsoever. The only other straightforward example is Old Kaioshin sensing Kaioshin's Fusion power and saying it isn't enough to handle Boo. That's about it.

 

[ahill1]

It's also worth noting that, after Piccolo's withdraw, Kaioshin stated that he ought to have sensed who he is, implying the emphasis seems to be more on Kaioshin's identity than his raw power.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

For one, kids VS #18. Unless assuming the suit magically made them several times weaker, there isn't much of a way to have the Base Saiyans leagues above #17/18 tier, which Piccolo should be after getting a large enough boost from the Rosat for Goku to comment on it, and most evidence would point to Shin being below the Base Saiyans.

There's also Piccolo's feat of lasting long against a Cell Junior when a tired Goku couldn't, despite Goku having still been capable of injuring an equally as fatigued Cell not long before and both still being treat as highly relevant powers. I may be opening up a can of worms by mentioning this though and turn this into another Piccolo VS Cell Jr. thread, but such was inevitable in a Piccolo VS Shin type of topic.

Don't worry, i can keep the can of worms closed

That the costume held Trunks back is the most likely answer. Trunks told Goten they couldn't win "Like this" and repeats himself after they go Super Saiyan, implying they wouldn't be in such trouble if weren't by the costume. Trunks is shown to be very similiar to his father in power

Even if Piccolo is so powerful (What i disagree, but we aren't doing this here), this doesn't put him above a Base Saiyan's power, it's possible. And by a numerical point of view, i know you think the SSJ multiplier can fluctuate according to the plot's need. The SSJ multiplier not being fix could also explain Trunks struggling against #18 if the costume argument weren't enough.

A lot of the stuff in Z (particularly the Boo saga) isn't exactly coherent, anyway. Outside of Vegeta admitting in a questionable way that they were unable to gauge Kaioshin, the only person shown sensing him is Kibito. Piccolo was starting to realize who Kaioshin was. The fact that he was surprised at his inability to attack Kaioshin shows it's more than raw power in play.

Or Toriyama just didn't bother using a scene where someone says they can sense Kaioshin's Ki. This is akin to saying Oolong's Ki can't be sensed because nobody was even shown sensing it.

Everybody believed Kaioshin was killed by Boo, so they couldn't sense him because they subconsciously were holding themselves back. The use of Ki in general strongly depends of one's state of mind. Piccolo was also unable to sense Dende's Ki because he also thought he was dead.

What Piccolo pointed out is being unable to attack Kaioshin based on the feeling he was getting from him. None of that points to him simply being scared because Kaioshin was more powerful. Even Piccolo is questioning why he can't fight Kaioshin, which is basically what Vegeta did when he got the strange feeling from Whis. He did sense Whis, but he couldn't sense Whis. That's why he said "It's like a Ki without Ki". When it comes to Kaioshin, they simply couldn't sense any power from him.

These guys are masters at suppression, so Vegeta ending his statement with "which we haven't even been able to estimate?" makes it seem like Vegeta is confused on why they can't gauge him. If it was just a matter of Kaioshin not fighting yet, then there's....nothing to question because it'd be clear.

What happened to Piccolo was that he was way too shocked to even move. This same thing happened to himself and Vegeta whey they saw Freeza's overwhelming power. And Piccolo quitting the fight because Kaioshin was too strong or because Kaioshin's is a god aren't mutually excessive: He could be quitting out of both respect and fear. Though i'm more inclined to say fear was the bigger factor, since he wasn't even sure if he was a god or not.

Or just because Kaioshin was suppressing himself. Vegeta couldn't tell how strong Goku or Gohan were either until he actually saw them in action.

Goku teleporting actually has nothing to do with Kaioshin's world. We don't even know if that was where he was intending to go. Of course that's where Kaioshin ended up taking them, but that doesn't really say anything about Goku. Piccolo sensed a strange feeling from Kaioshin that made him unable to attack. The Daizenshuu is simply saying Piccolo sensed his power and left...when we're told right off the bat that Piccolo can't understand why he's unable to attack Kaioshin. I don't see why Piccolo can sense his power and yet everyone else can't sense him at all. The scene is more than just Piccolo backing down because of Kaioshin's power. He's trying to figure out his identity. This is shown when he approached him after their stare down backstage.

He was going there. Where else would he teleport to? Either way, Piccolo giving up out of respect or out of fear aren't exclusive, as i've said earlier. This is how i see the moment, exactly:

1) Piccolo is pretty nervous at first. He's too emotionally overwhelmed to even move, but he doesn't know why. I agree Piccolo's fear here is most likely because of his guts telling him Kaioshin's a deity, since if he were afraid because of power he would know. Though him being afraid because he's a god is also doubtful. When was Piccolo shown to be have any respect for deities before? Even if his lack of respect for Kami was because of their relationship, he couldn't give less of a shit about Kaio and his warnings about Freeza.
2) When Kaioshin smiles, Piccolo finally shits himself and quits. I think this is when he realized he was outmatched, what is supported by the Daizenshuu saying he sensed the gap when Kaioshin smiled to him:

Goku immediately realized Gohan wasn't with Kaio or anywhere near Enma's station upon sensing him. The fact that he knew Gohan (who'd undoubtedly have a much bigger Chi than Kaio ever would) wasn't with Kaio would mean he's scouting for familiarity in whatever area his Chi is located in. There was no familiarity because he was shown to be surprised that Kaioshin or Kibito were there. You don't need to be putting out a lot of power to be noticed. Goku quickly noticed Gohan's Chi, noticed that he wasn't with Kaio, yet didn't notice Kaioshin and Kibito until he arrived on the Kaioshin world. Simply put, Goku never sensed them at any point on Earth.

Kibito upon revival immediately sensed Kaioshin. Piccolo assumed Kaioshin was done in by Boo's blast and no one ever alluded to sensing him afterwards whatsoever. The only other straightforward example is Old Kaioshin sensing Kaioshin's Fusion power and saying it isn't enough to handle Boo. That's about it.

Or he knew Gohan wasn't with Kaio because of where his Ki was emanating from. Ki sensing also relies on direction, as shown when Goku had to ask to Kaio the direction of New Namek to find it. From the official map of the Dragon Ball universe, we know Kaio's planet is at the North of Enma's palace, whereas the Kaioshin realm is below it.

Spoiler

Piccolo also assumed Dende was dead, Kaioshin assumed Boo was dead on arrival despite Gohan sensing his Ki, Kuririn couldn't tell Boo had powered up further than Gotenks when he transformed... Their state of mind plays a huge factor on their abilities.

It's also worth noting that, after Piccolo's withdraw, Kaioshin stated that he ought to have sensed who he is, implying the emphasis seems to be more on Kaioshin's identity than his raw power.

And then Piccolo tells the Z Fighters Kaioshin is too strong for him, and actually has to confirm with Kaioshin if he's actually a god...

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That the costume held Trunks back is the most likely answer. Trunks told Goten they couldn't win "Like this" and repeats himself after they go Super Saiyan, implying they wouldn't be in such trouble if weren't by the costume. Trunks is shown to be very similiar to his father in power.

Whilst what you say is true, it still seems pretty questionable to put full stock in the costume being that much of a deciding factor. After all, it shouldn't outright nerf the damage Trunks' punches can do by much, plus the Daizenshuu's entry on Trunks does seem to suggest his base form in general is on par with #18.

Even if Piccolo is so powerful (What i disagree, but we aren't doing this here), this doesn't put him above a Base Saiyan's power, it's possible. And by a numerical point of view, i know you think the SSJ multiplier can fluctuate according to the plot's need. The SSJ multiplier not being fix could also explain Trunks struggling against #18 if the costume argument weren't enough.

Yes, I agree with the fluctuation of the SSJ multiplier depending on the plot. For different characters at the same point in the story, however, it seems like more of an unlikelihood since logic would dictate they should be comparable in equal forms.

 

[ahill1]

And then Piccolo tells the Z Fighters Kaioshin is too strong for him, and actually has to confirm with Kaioshin if he's actually a god...

Like you said, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

As for the costume, it shouldn't influence the kids (or Trunks, since he was the one doing the work) tanking abilities... and we saw how Trunks was incapable of tanking her.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention]

Or Toriyama just didn't bother using a scene where someone says they can sense Kaioshin's Ki. This is akin to saying Oolong's Ki can't be sensed because nobody was even shown sensing it.

The difference is Oolong was never mentioned to be the same as Kaioshin or Beerus simply because his Chi became that of a God's. That information is exactly why the idea of Kaioshin having no detectable Chi is being debated. There isn't a clear example of anyone sensing Kaioshin's power and making note of it except for Kibito and Old Kaioshin. Everyone else falls into "Well, they didn't say they couldn't sense it".

Everybody believed Kaioshin was killed by Boo, so they couldn't sense him because they subconsciously were holding themselves back. The use of Ki in general strongly depends of one's state of mind. Piccolo was also unable to sense Dende's Ki because he also thought he was dead.

Piccolo thought he was dead, but he also didn't try to sense him. Gohan concentrated to find Dende's faint Chi after being told everyone was eaten by Boo.

What happened to Piccolo was that he was way too shocked to even move. This same thing happened to himself and Vegeta whey they saw Freeza's overwhelming power. And Piccolo quitting the fight because Kaioshin was too strong or because Kaioshin's is a god aren't mutually excessive: He could be quitting out of both respect and fear. Though i'm more inclined to say fear was the bigger factor, since he wasn't even sure if he was a god or not.

It had nothing to do with Kaioshin's power, though. Piccolo himself can't understand what's stopping him from attacking. If it was because Kaioshin was so much stronger, what exactly is there to be confused about? All of it came down to him being a God he was unaware of. He felt no need to disclose this with the others and just said he was weaker instead.

Which Freeza example? Piccolo had no qualms attacking Freeza along with Krillin and Gohan despite being hella outmatched. Vegeta became paralyzed with fear when Freeza knocked away his most powerful attack. Unless you're talking about other examples.

Or just because Kaioshin was suppressing himself. Vegeta couldn't tell how strong Goku or Gohan were either until he actually saw them in action.

How did Piccolo sense the suppressed Kaioshin without anyone else being able to sense him, then? If Piccolo sensed him, then he couldn't have been too suppressed. As for Goku and Gohan, he at least knew to expect much more once they fought at the Cell Games. With Kaioshin, he's questioning why they're unable to gauge his power. If Kaioshin having yet to fight is the simple answer, there's nothing for Vegeta to question. There's clearly more to it than that. Especially if Piccolo can somehow sense Kaioshin's suppressed power without everyone else being able to.

He was going there. Where else would he teleport to?

There's no telling. We really don't know where Goku intended to go right there. Goku himself said he probably wouldn't be able to go to Namek because of the distance and the fact that they don't have much Chi. The same could easily apply here if there's no detectable Chi to teleport to. He was only able to sense and reach Kaioshin's world because of Otherworld.

2) When Kaioshin smiles, Piccolo finally shits himself and quits. I think this is when he realized he was outmatched, what is supported by the Daizenshuu saying he sensed the gap when Kaioshin smiled to him

If Piccolo was able to sense that he was outmatched, wouldn't this mean Kaioshin was no longer suppressed? Or are you saying Piccolo was able to sense him in a way that everyone else was unable to?

Or he knew Gohan wasn't with Kaio because of where his Ki was emanating from. Ki sensing also relies on direction, as shown when Goku had to ask to Kaio the direction of New Namek to find it. From the official map of the Dragon Ball universe, we know Kaio's planet is at the North of Enma's palace, whereas the Kaioshin realm is below it.

Alright, I concede that point.

But looking at the Freeza example you mentioned earlier, Krillin, Gohan, and Dende were all in a suppressed state to stay hidden from Vegeta. Freeza was beginning to speed up to the area, but the situation didn't call for any of them to power-up at that moment. Freeza's Chi is clearly far higher than everyone else's, but that isn't enough to prevent Piccolo from sensing them. Nail's Chi was pretty low and required Piccolo to closer. A significant Chi does not block out surrounding Chi. When it comes to sensing Gohan, Goku completely missed Kaioshin and Kibito's Chi and only realized they were there when he saw them. This just adds to the idea that he never sensed them on Earth.

Trunks, who was staring at Kaioshin and remembered him from the tournament, can't even tell if Boo had already killed him or not. If Kaioshin was able to be sensed in the same fashion as everyone else, then it would've been clear he was still alive. He was actually walking after being blown away from Boo's Angry Explosion a few chapters later. Kibito being able to sense that Kaioshin was very much alive (from a distance I might add) when Trunks couldn't from a few yards away....is further proof that they're unable to get a clear read on his Chi like everyone else.

Piccolo also assumed Dende was dead, Kaioshin assumed Boo was dead on arrival despite Gohan sensing his Ki, Kuririn couldn't tell Boo had powered up further than Gotenks when he transformed... Their state of mind plays a huge factor on their abilities.

Good examples, but the Krillin one doesn't seem like a state of mind thing. He's perfectly calm and just missed the entire ordeal.

Kaioshin and Kibito just don't have normal Chi like everyone else. They don't seem to be detected normally by others and their Chi can't be used to add to Boo's power. The energy of hundreds of Earthlings is more useful than theirs despite being millions of times weaker.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Looking at the scene again, Piccolo's shock appears to stem from Kaioshin reading his mind and answering his question. There's not much implying Kaioshin is doing anything there that would give off any power.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Evil Vegeta[/mention]

But the thing is, other than the statements i proved that Kaioshin at least has a sensible Ki, we also have Piccolo's statement about Kaioshin being dimensions above him, what is supported in the Daizenshuus 2 and 7, and also the anime.

As far as Super goes, it seems to completely ignore any contact the Z Fighters had with deities prior to Beerus' arrival. Not only nobody notices Beerus' (Lack of) Ki signature is like Kaioshin's, but Dende also says he never sensed such a Ki, despite having met Kibitoshin and Old Kaioshin years ago.

Context: Dende is clearly terrified of Beerus
Piccolo: "Dende! What's making you this scared? Dende! What's so special about him?"
Dende: "I can sense a ki I've never felt before."

And who tried to find Kaioshin after Boo presumably blew him up, other than Kibito?

You're right. Piccolo straight up asks himself why he can't move. He doesn't know anything about Kaioshin until he reads his mind. Makes me think Kaioshin's mind reading/telepathy has something to do with being powerful/a god or gave Piccolo a good grasp about it.

I'm talking about Piccolo being paralyzed after Freeza starts spanking Vegeta. The narrator says Piccolo and co. were frozen in fear before Freeza's "full power":

Spoiler

Why nobody other than Piccolo sensed Kaioshin is something that's left rather unclear in the manga. But when you look at the full conversation, it starts with Goku asking Piccolo if Kaioshin was too much for him:

Context: after Piccolo and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next”

So Goku actually thought Piccolo sensed Kaioshin, despite no one else sensing him. It doesn't seem to a different way of sensing Ki either, given nobody is surprised by anything other than the reveal that Kaioshin is a super strong guy.

Piccolo said there were "Three huge Ki" near Freeza and Vegeta said Kuririn and Gohan's powers were rising, so they weren't suppressed anymore. In the other hand, Nail's Ki was probably as minuscle as that of a snail. He was literally crippled and on the verge of death.

I agree Kaioshin's Ki doesn't seem to be normal. There's not only his Ki being useless to revive Boo but South and Dai Kaioshin also completely altered Boo, much more than Gohan and others did, and Trunks not being able to sense Kaioshin it rather suspicious (Though it could get lumped with other inconsistences in Ki sensing, like nobody being able to find Tenshinhan in the planet). At best i'd think his Ki is difficult to sense, but to say he lacks a Ki signature like Super implies is straight up impossible.

Whilst what you say is true, it still seems pretty questionable to put full stock in the costume being that much of a deciding factor. After all, it shouldn't outright nerf the damage Trunks' punches can do by much, plus the Daizenshuu's entry on Trunks does seem to suggest his base form in general is on par with #18.

The suit could be ripped off if he punches too hard. Trunks actually said they wouldn't be able to beat #18 even as Super Saiyans if they don't resort to Ki blasts, implying the suit did restrain them that much:

Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

And the Daizenshuu actually says they had a even fight, not that their powers were even. Daizenshuu 7 also said Gohan and Dabra had a roughly even fight despite Gohan being powerful enough to tank a blast from Dabra.

I think you could also have brought up Vegeta's statement about him being the strongest whether it's on base or SSJ, since it implies SSJ multiplier is the same for everyone at that point. It's also possible that #18 in the Boo Arc is >>> Android Arc #18, though i'm quite skeptical of the idea that #18 can one shot Piccolo...

Like you said, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

As for the costume, it shouldn't influence the kids (or Trunks, since he was the one doing the work) tanking abilities... and we saw how Trunks was incapable of tanking her.

Ahill, do you think Piccolo is > Kaioshin?

#18 attacked Trunks from a blind spot, Piccolo could throw Freeza into the ocean attacking him from a blind spot too... As far as damage goes, the boys instantly recover from #18's attack.

 

[ahill1]

Ahill, do you think Piccolo is > Kaioshin?

Nah, Kaioshin > Piccolo to me. While I think it's debatable whether Piccolo sensed Kaioshin, he still stated he was far outclassed, which was later confirmed to be the case in the Daizenshuu. I like the explanation that Kaioshin was just overly cautious in the spaceship over fighters he couldn't even sense. He heard from Goku and Vegeta how Dabura was no big deal to them, and yet was worried about Goku fighting Yakon alone, which to me implies he just wants the Saiyajins to play safe and not run the risk of being damaged and having their energy sent to Boo.

#18 attacked Trunks from a blind spot, Piccolo could throw Freeza into the ocean attacking him from a blind spot too... As far as damage goes, the boys instantly recover from #18's attack.

The difference is that Freeza wasn't even aware Piccolo was charging at him and therefore had his guard down. Trunks was just speedblitzed, but he was in the middle of the fight... there's no reason to think he failed to tank the attack merely because #18 got away from his field of vision.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The suit could be ripped off if he punches too hard. Trunks actually said they wouldn't be able to beat #18 even as Super Saiyans if they don't resort to Ki blasts, implying the suit did restrain them that much

That's a pretty good point, apart from the fact that clothing's durability tends to adapt to the user's level or Ki seeing as how clothing durability was never a factor in battle prior to this, at least not for one that wasn't heavily prolonged.

I think you could also have brought up Vegeta's statement about him being the strongest whether it's on base or SSJ, since it implies SSJ multiplier is the same for everyone at that point. It's also possible that #18 in the Boo Arc is >>> Android Arc #18, though i'm quite skeptical of the idea that #18 can one shot Piccolo...

Piccolo wasn't on the plane when Vegeta made the statement and we have no indication he knew Piccolo would be participating. You could assume he imagined Piccolo wouldn't back out of a challenge, but that is just an assumption and not the most likely one when Piccolo backed down from trying another trip in the Rosat, showing proving his strength wasn't so prevalent a factor after fusing with Kami.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I feel like Kaioshin's Chi is ambiguous enough to the point where Super's stuff doesn't really create much of an issue. Whis' presence was felt by Vegeta, but he was unable to gauge his power. From the time Kaioshin and Kibito are introduced, everything said about them appeared to be based on feeling rather than actual sensing. Goku doesn't need to hassle Piccolo. He just took his answer for what it was and left it alone.

Even if you use the Piccolo example, it would have to mean it was through special means because no one else could sense Kaioshin right there. Kaioshin can't be suppressed and yet the extent of his power can somehow be measured by Piccolo while going unnoticed by people who are just as good, if not better at sensing than Piccolo. The scene simply makes no sense.

No one tried to find Kaioshin, but the fact that Trunks is unsure if Kaioshin is dead or not, and Piccolo has no idea Kaioshin's even there until Bobbidi tells Boo to eat him, is enough to deduce that his Chi isn't just out there for everyone to sense. Kibito can sense Kaioshin from a distance and people near him can't tell if he's alive or there. His condition is more or less the same in all of those instances, too. The way I see it, Kaioshin simply can't be sensed through normal means.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That's a pretty good point, apart from the fact that clothing's durability tends to adapt to the user's level or Ki seeing as how clothing durability was never a factor in battle prior to this, at least not for one that wasn't heavily prolonged.

I'd think the clothes being baggy on them has something to do with this, making it easier for the costume to slip off. It's easier to take off a baggy shirt than a tight one, you know.


[mention]Evil Vegeta[/mention] do you think Piccolo actually sensed Kaioshin? Or do you think h he was talking out of his ass to Goku and Kuririn?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I don't think he sensed him at all. I think he got a strange feeling from Kaioshin that led him to believe he was a high Deity. Kaioshin recognized him as the Earth's former God, so I don't think the scene itself had much to do with Chi-sensing. Piccolo seemed reluctant to reveal why he actually left the battle, which explains why he went over to Kaioshin alone to find out his real identity.

To me, his reply to Goku's question just seemed to be a way of answering him without leaving opportunity for further discussion.

That doesn't mean I disagree with Kaioshin>Piccolo. I just don't believe he actually sensed him there.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

This topic has got me thinking about Kaioshin's Chi a lot more and how it compares to the others when fighting.

We don't see much from Kaioshin's battle prowess in the Manga, but we have a few examples:

He stops Gohan (which supposedly took a lot of effort) at the Budokai:

Smacks Boo in the face with an shockwave, kiai type of attack:

Knocks Boo back with a his eyes kiai:

Visually speaking, he looks to be putting the same amount of effort in all of his attacks. The attacks on Boo were clearly from a more offensive standpoint, but using his power to nullify Gohan's movement seems to be just as strenuous as both.

As we see from the others, they're usually sensed through a transformation, power-up, or simply by fighting. Kaioshin's way of fighting seems so different compared to everyone else. He doesn't power-up, attacks with invisible attacks, and can completely stop someone much more powerful. His attacks seem to be psychic based, though I don't believe that's confirmed. We know Chaozu and Gurd use psychic powers, so Kaioshin's power seems like it'd be similar...but more Godly based on his status, if that makes sense.

His way of fighting makes it seem unlikely that he'd be measured in the same way as everyone else in the series.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Evil Vegeta[/mention] a lot of people think his attacks are magic-based, but i have yet to see any source confirming this. Those invisible attacks remind me a lot of Kiais. I don't think there's much special about his techniques (Other than perhaps his paralysis arts), it's just something he learned for self defense.

You know, his feats make me wonder how he would fare against Babidi's minions. His feats put him pretty close to Dabra, yet Babidi thinks even Pui Pui can take care of him...

 

[Captain Cadaver]

@Evil Vegeta a lot of people think his attacks are magic-based, but i have yet to see any source confirming this. Those invisible attacks remind me a lot of Kiais. I don't think there's much special about his techniques (Other than perhaps his paralysis arts), it's just something he learned for self defense.

Well, Kiai are generally considered of a lower tier than Ki, so I'd say there's something special about Shin's variation if it's supposed to be a full power attack.

You know, his feats make me wonder how he would fare against Babidi's minions. His feats put him pretty close to Dabra, yet Babidi thinks even Pui Pui can take care of him...

I wouldn't say his feats show that. Gohan was off-guard when paralyzed and had no idea about the source, not to mention Shin only restraining him for a few seconds at best. His attacks on Boo also can't be really given precedence due to Boo's nature unless we start treating bullets as SS3 tier. The only feat I could somewhat see being used to argue for Shin's high-end placement beyond his plot-armoured durability would be him destroying a Ki blast that overpowered SSJ Gohan, which I wouldn't say is that impressive when Piccolo destroyed Enraged Gohan's Masenko against 3rd form Freeza with a pretty simple Ki blast.