ToP Hit vs ToP SSJ-Blue Vegeta

[Fantastische Hure]

Who wins?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Hit is stronger, not that much, but he def has the edge on that. I also personally consider that the Time Cage is too much for even Evolved Blue Vegeta to manage something against.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Jiren after he defeated Hit said he defeated every-one that was power-ful so I think most likely going by that Hit was above Vegeta.

 

[Animelover5487]

Blue Vegeta might could beat Hit at the start of tournament but he is getting stomped by Hit from the Jiren fight, especially with Time Cage.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Jiren after he defeated Hit said he defeated every-one that was power-ful so I think most likely going by that Hit was above Vegeta.

He underrated Vegeta, though. But yeah, pretty much Hit was a greater threat than him.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Hit isn’t stronger in the conventional sense and Vegeta might know how to counteract time-skip now, but Hit still wins with Time Cage and other techniques.

 

[Goku9001]

Hard to say. By the start of the Tournament of Power, Blue Vegeta reached a level on par with Toppo who matched Kaioken Blue Goku in the Exhibition. Naturally, he should be stronger than Hit was when he fought Dyspo. The tough thing is whether or not Blue Vegeta could fight against Hit (vs. Jiren) but at that point, it'd be fair to compare him to Blue Vegeta at his best. Blue Vegeta as he was against Jiren should be overwhelmingly stronger than Hit. Jiren used more power in Episode 122 than he did against Hit. While Hit was backed into a corner while spamming Time Skip, Blue Vegeta slipped through Jiren's fastest attack and was capable of driving him back. Blue Vegeta should easily be much faster than Hit to the point where Hit can't really do anything against Vegeta.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Hard to say. By the start of the Tournament of Power, Blue Vegeta reached a level on par with Toppo who matched Kaioken Blue Goku in the Exhibition. Naturally, he should be stronger than Hit was when he fought Dyspo. The tough thing is whether or not Blue Vegeta could fight against Hit (vs. Jiren) but at that point, it'd be fair to compare him to Blue Vegeta at his best. Blue Vegeta as he was against Jiren should be overwhelmingly stronger than Hit. Jiren used more power in Episode 122 than he did against Hit. While Hit was backed into a corner while spamming Time Skip, Blue Vegeta slipped through Jiren's fastest attack and was capable of driving him back. Blue Vegeta should easily be much faster than Hit to the point where Hit can't really do anything against Vegeta.

Jiren was faster and stronger when he fought Goku and Hit than what he was against Vegeta taking into account that Hit states that the same blows he was receiving from Jiren were as heavy as the ones he used with Goku.

I could agree that Vegeta performed better against the weaker Jiren as he also managed to avoid getting eliminated of the tournament while Hit couldn't.

 

[Goku9001]

Jiren was faster and stronger when he fought Goku and Hit than what he was against Vegeta taking into account that Hit states that the same blows he was receiving from Jiren were as heavy as the ones he used with Goku.

I could agree that Vegeta performed better against the weaker Jiren as he also managed to avoid getting eliminated of the tournament while Hit couldn't.

I know the argument comes from Vegeta's statement "You were faster and stronger against Kakarot!" but contextually, he's just trying to provoke Jiren. Vegeta already claimed that he was the strongest power he's ever encountered and Goku, Whis, Beerus, Belmod, etc. don't even call Jiren's strength into question. Rather, everyone is impressed that Vegeta was driving him back.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I know the argument comes from Vegeta's statement "You were faster and stronger against Kakarot!" but contextually, he's just trying to provoke Jiren. Vegeta already claimed that he was the strongest power he's ever encountered and Goku, Whis, Beerus, Belmod, etc. don't even call Jiren's strength into question. Rather, everyone is impressed that Vegeta was driving him back.

It could go either way, it could be provoking him or him literally talking to him wanting to use that same power, I think it's possible that the Jiren from 122 was stronger than the one in 110 due to Vegeta's statement, he just ain't using his full effort or nowhere near close to that. Also Vegeta could tell that Jiren ain't using his full strength yet.

 

[Goku9001]

It could go either way, it could be provoking him or him literally talking to him wanting to use that same power, I think it's possible that the Jiren from 122 was stronger than the one in 110 due to Vegeta's statement, he just ain't using his full effort or nowhere near close to that. Also Vegeta could tell that Jiren ain't using his full strength yet.

It's a weak argument. Whis talks about Vegeta trying to push Jiren harder so that Vegeta could break his limits right before that statement was made. At the beginning of the battle, Jiren was an impenetrable wall for Vegeta. None of his attacks fazed him. When Vegeta bounces back from Jiren's attacks, Jiren calls him "persistent" before initiating his fastest attack. Afterward, Vegeta's attacks actually forced Jiren on the defensive and begin to damage Jiren.

Holding back in effort isn't going to account for that but the argument is still based on a statement being taken out-of-context.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

It's a weak argument. Whis talks about Vegeta trying to push Jiren harder so that Vegeta could break his limits right before that statement was made. At the beginning of the battle, Jiren was an impenetrable wall for Vegeta. None of his attacks fazed him. When Vegeta bounces back from Jiren's attacks, Jiren calls him "persistent" before initiating his fastest attack. Afterward, Vegeta's attacks actually forced Jiren on the defensive and begin to damage Jiren.

Holding back in effort isn't going to account for that but the argument is still based on a statement being taken out-of-context.

To be fair, Jiren was always like that, when he wants to be, while it is not the same when he actually tries like when he is dominating Goku and Vegeta together or when he impacted Vegeta with a ki blast which let him on the floor, the narrator also makes the comment that Jiren and the rest of U11 is toying with U7 fighters on top of Belmod stating that his warriors are on other level compared to Beerus' ones. And Because, that's what Jiren is: he takes everyone's attack head on and then shows his overwhelming power.

The Vegeta statement can also refer to the fact that he is using less effort than Goku in 122, Jiren didn't expect too much for Vegeta and he used less effort while trying to punch him while Vegeta has also seen his prior attack coming at a faster rate, so it'd be easier for him to predict.

So juding by Jiren's poor personality and taking everyone perfromance at face value using his low passes: Blue Vegeta, Base Toppo, 17 or even weaker characters such as Dyspo or Base Freeza ends up being greater than Kaioken x20 Goku and Hit from 109 - 111. Which tells me that is nothing to go with.

 

[Goku9001]

To be fair, Jiren was always like that, when he wants to be, while it is not the same when he actually tries like when he is dominating Goku and Vegeta together or when he impacted Vegeta with a ki blast which let him on the floor, the narrator also makes the comment that Jiren and the rest of U11 is toying with U7 fighters on top of Belmod stating that his warriors are on other level compared to Beerus' ones. And Because, that's what Jiren is: he takes everyone's attack head on and then shows his overwhelming power.

The Vegeta statement can also refer to the fact that he is using less effort than Goku in 122, Jiren didn't expect too much for Vegeta and he used less effort while trying to punch him while Vegeta has also seen his prior attack coming at a faster rate, so it'd be easier for him to predict.

So juding by Jiren's poor personality and taking everyone perfromance at face value using his low passes: Blue Vegeta, Base Toppo, 17 or even weaker characters such as Dyspo or Base Freeza ends up being greater than Kaioken x20 Goku and Hit from 109 - 111. Which tells me that is nothing to go with.

Jiren would just be flexing his power whenever the situation arises.

Aside from that, Vegeta's statement could also just be him provoking Jiren which makes sense given the context I provided. Nothing definitively suggests that Jiren was sandbagging when no one was suspicious about Vegeta's ability to force Jiren back.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Jiren would just be flexing his power whenever the situation arises.

Aside from that, Vegeta's statement could also just be him provoking Jiren which makes sense given the context I provided. Nothing definitively suggests that Jiren was sandbagging when no one was suspicious about Vegeta's ability to force Jiren back.

Jiren being greater power ever encountered doesn't mean he is using that power at ever time and at every point, it'd not be the first time in DB that everyone is shocked ans confused without actually having grasp or being able to tell what is going on: Piccolo vs Gero or Vegeta vs Majin Buu comes to mind.

Considering that the narrator voice is definite in most of the cases, it's fair to assume that Jiren even after defeating Vegeta is still toying. After all, he still has recently gained Jiren's esteem and before of that, he didn't considered him a threat unlike Hit.

Spoiler

Jiren could've eliminated him after lefting him in the floor, yet he didn't.

 

[Goku9001]

Jiren being greater power ever encountered doesn't mean he is using that power at ever time and at every point, it'd not be the first time in DB that everyone is shocked ans confused without actually having grasp or being able to tell what is going on: Piccolo vs Gero or Vegeta vs Majin Buu comes to mind.

Considering that the narrator voice is definite in most of the cases, it's fair to assume that Jiren even after defeating Vegeta is still toying. After all, he still has recently gained Jiren's esteem and before of that, he didn't considered him a threat unlike Hit.

Spoiler

View attachment 2395

Jiren could've eliminated him after lefting him in the floor, yet he didn't.

It doesn't matter. You have yet to prove that he was holding back in effort. "Could have" really isn't good enough.

Jiren prefers to conserve energy and only uses more energy when necessary. That's what Jiren does throughout the entire fight.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

It doesn't matter. You have yet to prove that he was holding back in effort. "Could have" really isn't good enough.

Jiren prefers to conserve energy and only uses more energy when necessary. That's what Jiren does throughout the entire fight.

I never said "he could have", he is holding back at effort, which he is doing every time. Where'd you get that from?

I already provided evidence to the case: Vegeta came at Jiren and called him "how persistent" which means that he isn't taking him seriously and then he throws punches to Vegeta and far after that is when Vegeta's statement came out to be.

After the fight, Vegeta could tell that Jiren ain't using his full strength still.

Jiren one episode after come from fighting "evenly with Blue Goku to dominate Kaioken Goku and Evolved Vegeta together. So I don't think anyone perfomance can be taken at face value unless having context such as with Hit, that he did indeed consider him a threat.

 

[Goku9001]

I never said "he could have", he is holding back at effort, which he is doing every time. Where'd you get that from?

I already provided evidence to the case: Vegeta came at Jiren and called him "how persistent" which means that he isn't taking him seriously and then he throws punches to Vegeta and far after that is when Vegeta's statement came out to be.

After the fight, Vegeta could tell that Jiren ain't using his full strength still.

Jiren one episode after come from fighting "evenly with Blue Goku to dominate Kaioken Goku and Evolved Vegeta together. So I don't think anyone perfomance can be taken at face value unless having context such as with Hit, that he did indeed consider him a threat.

Jiren is far from full power. No one is disputing that. How that suggests Jiren is holding back in effort despite using a power that far exceeds Ultra Instinct Omen against Blue opponents is something you have yet to prove. You haven't changed my mind here. The only thing that's required is that Jiren is suppressing his power and unveils more of it as the Saiyans continue to grow stronger. Case in point, the example you provided would prove my case. Jiren evidently powered up after Blue Goku baited him with the landmines. The power he used against Blue Goku was not equivalent to what he used against Kaioken Blue Goku and Blue Evolved Vegeta.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Jiren is far from full power. No one is disputing that. How that suggests Jiren is holding back in effort despite using a power that far exceeds Ultra Instinct Omen against Blue opponents is something you have yet to prove. You haven't changed my mind here. The only thing that's required is that Jiren is suppressing his power and unveils more of it as the Saiyans continue to grow stronger. Case in point, the example you provided would prove my case. Jiren evidently powered up after Blue Goku baited him with the landmines. The power he used against Blue Goku was not equivalent to what he used against Kaioken Blue Goku and Blue Evolved Vegeta.

I'm not discussing on whether you like it or not, just that what you are suggesting is a nonsensical route seeing as Jiren is not a good parameter to be taken seen all the disadvantages he has and how characters from God - Blue lvl can make better things against him than what they can do on weaker characters.

Characters can't sense hidden power, so it's also illogical to point to that. It's obvious that Vegeta is refering that Jiren is not using the full strength of his current power.

Jiren can surpass UI Omen Goku (he can be or he cannot be), but that doesn't mean whenever he breathes or when he is fighting Base Goku or Vegeta he is using that huge amount of effort (128 Jiren serves as reference), what reason does he has to accidentally kill his opponents or take someone that seriously even if they're not a threat? It isn't like if everyone that resist him, everyone that push him back or someone that give him an slight hit scales around his power, that is absurd.

127 Jiren is far stronger than 122 Jiren, yet he can't even one-shot Android 17, while 122 Jiren can do it with SSj Blue Vegeta, despite Vegeta being stronger than 17, similar as to how 109 Jiren can defeat the strongest in U7 (Goku even in Kaioken x20 form) but now he "struggles" with Blue level opponents. That is a point in favour of nothing.

Goku and Vegeta got stronger in Blue Evolved/Blue Kaioken because Jiren points that their punches has gotten sharper, although in Vegeta's case is obvious because of a new form, those are justified power ups, not imaginary ones. And even though, I agree that saiyans can get stronger through fighting, you can't actually quantify (not making a proper case in the proccess) of how much power they did in fact gain, so it is not a vital point.

Its a fine speculation to think that Jiren powered up due to Goku, but that was because he was about to be eliminated, not because Goku forced him to do that. The silent power up theory also doesn't work because every time Jiren powered up is backed up by the narrator, Belmod or someone on the crowd.

 

[Goku9001]

@Natasha Romanoff

I gave my opinion and you contested it in an attempt to change my mind. Therefore, it is absolutely relevant that you do disprove my argument and provide proof that Jiren was holding back in effort which you have not. The narrative is consistent in the fact that Jiren preserves his power and only unveils more of it when need be. Jiren was stated to be using power that exceeded anything Vegeta experienced at all. Vegeta was going off of what he felt at that current moment since Vegeta was clashing with Jiren's energy directly at the time.

Here is what we do know. Jiren uses his fastest attack against Kaioken Blue Goku which Goku failed to react to. Vegeta at the time claims he could not see it. Fast forward to Episode 122 and Blue Vegeta is shown reacting to it flawlessly. Vegeta later lands blows that damage Jiren and causes him to stagger. In contrast, Goku claimed that he could not damage Jiren using Kaioken x20 Blue as of Episode 109. The Genkidama that Goku used failed to damage him. During these moments, Vegeta was mentioned to be forcing himself beyond those limits to awaken Ultra Instinct. All of these would be points in favor of Vegeta becoming stronger which is stressed by the narrative.

The counterargument with Android 17 does not apply. Android 17 clearly braced himself for attacks that Jiren used in the same way that Hit did against Jiren during their battle. That was precisely why Hit could afford to take multiple direct hits in the first place. This was stated by Cabba.

Regardless, we have Vegeta claiming that the power Jiren used was the strongest he's ever encountered, Blue Vegeta dodging Jiren's fastest attack in a fashion similar to Ultra Instinct which Kaioken x20 Blue Goku could not react to prior, blatantly damaged Jiren which Kaioken x20 Blue Goku stated that he could not do and evidently could not with a Genkidama, and later mustered a Final Flash which concerned Belmod and left him confused at how much bottomless power Saiyans have. No one here is quantifying Vegeta's gains beyond him demonstrating feats that blow Hits' out of the water.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@Goku9001

No, you can't speculate about something you don't even know, I just wanted to know why you think anyone performance against Jiren count as something and what makes you think that.

All you have done is denying the evidence of Jiren toying with Vegeta coming by the narrator, denying the fact that Jiren doesn't even bother of Vegeta and actually resigning to accept that Jiren was using less effort on Vegeta than with Goku.

Yes, Jiren is stronger than everything Vegeta faced, so? That ain't proving a case as to why Jiren could have as much effort as he did with Hit or Goku, after all, Vegeta was just a watcher of Jiren vs Goku fight. Base Vegeta was the one that couldn't see Jiren's attack incoming in 109, not Blue Vegeta. When Vegeta stated that he was punching a wall that didn't even move.

Vegeta could react because he has already seen him coming, in a similar way as to why Freeza or Goku could contend with Dyspo by watching Hit. If Blue Vegeta can do that, we can expect from Base Toppo to do the same due to him being in the same league as him, as farcry league from Blue Kaioken x20 Goku or Hit standards.

17 and Hit were as durable as to receive Jiren's attacks coming from the level of effort he was exerting at the time. Consistently, 17 did in fact performed better considering that Vegeta despite being weaker as he wasn't actually knocked and not blast put him a long time on the floor unlike Vegeta. If we are going by speed feats, 17 also could appart Evolved Vegeta, but that doesn't mean he is nowhere near as fast as to keep up with him and he also could run from God Toppo, those are just low passes coming from both characters.

In same case, Base Freeza and 17 blown Hit out of the water because they could actually take Jiren off guard while Vados states he cannot be taken like that, it is needed to analyze some more.

I highly doubt Vegeta's power gone that high, because if not, he could at least have given some damage to him or at least slight scratches, that is also a point in favour to 17 over Vegeta as his sneak attack could make him some.

If you can't quantify gains, then it tells me that you have no basis to get a proper conclussion.