Trunks SSJ2

[ahill1]

Like we saw in the manga, Trunks' ssj2 state can rival Goku's SSJ3. He also stated he wasn't satisfied with ssj2 or something to that effect. Could Trunks maybe draw out the full power of the SSJ2 state?

 

[Keedounan]

I mean, isn't it exactly what he did to reach SSJ3 Goku's level in the first place?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

My guess is that Trunks' form is akin to what initially planned for Goku, with him abandoning the higher, more Ki consuming forms to focus on raising his base and SSJ levels, with the only reason Goku hasn't already being how pointless focusing on them is now that the God forms are a thing.

 

[ahill1]

I mean, isn't it exactly what he did to reach SSJ3 Goku's level in the first place?

But was it a pumped up SSJ2 state? Or just his hightened base power?

 

[Spiral-Force]

He didn't believe the standard SSJ2 was his limit, so he took it to the next level.

After the boost, Goku and Vegeta were in awe and had no idea about it as opposed to just attributing it to conscious suppression, so it was an enhancement.

with the only reason Goku hasn't already being how pointless focusing on them is now that the God forms are a thing.

But why wasn't Goku able to obtain this when he trained in Other World between the Cell and Buu arcs? Can such be explained without seeming like an asspull for Trunks?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

But why wasn't Goku able to obtain this when he trained in Other World between the Cell and Buu arcs? Can such be explained without seeming like an asspull for Trunks?

Stamina drain wasn't a major issue in Otherworld and it wasn't as though he had an opponent to practice on an d necessitate improvement on the ability as Trunks did. Even after the Boo Arc, Goku never expected a threat to appear to removing SS3's weakness necessary and, once it did, it became instantly irrelevant due to SSG.

Meanwhile, Trunks was constantly in life-or-death battles with Black, making having a way to achieve more power at as little cost as possible extremely important.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

IIRC Trunks said he didn't even know SSJ3 was a thing and then said he never settled for the power SSJ2 gave him, so I assume he means he went beyond the power of what one would consider average SSJ2 level but still as a SSJ2.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Stamina drain wasn't a major issue in Otherworld and it wasn't as though he had an opponent to practice on an d necessitate improvement on the ability as Trunks did.

That's a fair explanation. Quite a bummer for him considering how knowledgeable Goku was about energy consumption in the Cell Arc, but it's not really his fault in this case at least.

Even after the Boo Arc, Goku never expected a threat to appear to removing SS3's weakness necessary and, once it did, it became instantly irrelevant due to SSG.

In the late segments of the arc, he made it quite clear that he would train in preperation for a possible fight with Buu, who gave him hell as a SSJ3 because of this exact weakness.

Meanwhile, Trunks was constantly in life-or-death battles with Black, making having a way to achieve more power at as little cost as possible extremely important.

Indeed, but it's not like he knew of an alternative to gaining such power, seeing as he didn't think something like Super Saiyan 3 was possible.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

In the late segments of the arc, he made it quite clear that he would train in preperation for a possible fight with Buu, who gave him hell as a SSJ3 because of this exact weakness.

True, though it may have been that he considered SS3 a lost cause and focused purely on increasing his power in general, focusing on his base and lower SSJ forms. The inferences of his base power at the 28th TB and his image training in the Super manga point heavily to his Base and SSJ states being his main focus.

Indeed, but it's not like he knew of an alternative to gaining such power, seeing as he didn't think something like Super Saiyan 3 was possible.

Still, he was able to enhance his SS2 state to the level it could rival SS3, so it's a weird case either way.

The best explanation I can provide as to how he didn't achieve SS3 is the assumption it can only be achieved through training outside of natural, mortal conditions. Goku achieved it in Otherworld and Gotenks gained it in the Rosat; and whilst non-canon, video games such as the Raging Blast biography for SS3 Vegeta suggest it can only be attained through such conditions.

 

[Pyro]

I'd like to know how he achieved this kind of thing without further transforming or pumping himself up like the Grade forms. It's not like anyone else has ever considered just growing the power of a single transformation while ignoring the rest.

 

[Spiral-Force]

True, though it may have been that he considered SS3 a lost cause and focused purely on increasing his power in general, focusing on his base and lower SSJ forms. The inferences of his base power at the 28th TB and his image training in the Super manga point heavily to his Base and SSJ states being his main focus.

Considering what Vegeta said about Mr. Buu possibly spawning another evil Buu, it still would've been practical to tackle the SSJ3 problem since they could've been faced with what Vegeta was talking about at any point, potentially much earlier than the 28th Budokai, irrespective of Uub. Whilst I agree in regards to the implications of his base power 10 years later, him getting to a level where he's comparable to Buu in normal form with the limitations of Earth training seemed like an extreme plot boost if anything, much like most of the gains in Super.

Still, he was able to enhance his SS2 state to the level it could rival SS3, so it's a weird case either way.

Too bad the same phenomenon didn't occur with Goku for whatever reason.

The best explanation I can provide as to how he didn't achieve SS3 is the assumption it can only be achieved through training outside of natural, mortal conditions. Goku achieved it in Otherworld and Gotenks gained it in the Rosat; and whilst non-canon, video games such as the Raging Blast biography for SS3 Vegeta suggest it can only be attained through such conditions.

Well Trunks himself didn't think SSJ3 or something akin to it was possible, which pinpoints that he wasn't thinking of unlocking an actual transformation. So, besides the reasons you highlighted, it's not a surprise why he didn't obtain it. Goku, however, has no reason to be exempt from obtaining Enhanced SSJ2. Trunks' reasoning for obtaining it was essentially that he didn't think the standard SSJ2 was his limit, which logically would also be Goku's line of thinking hence why he ascended past it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Considering what Vegeta said about Mr. Buu possibly spawning another evil Buu, it still would've been practical to tackle the SSJ3 problem since they could've been faced with what Vegeta was talking about at any point, potentially much earlier than the 28th Budokai, irrespective of Uub.

Goku would have had likely known how Boo worked far better than Vegeta did, given he seemingly had knowledge of what was going on Earth in detail with the crystal ball and had the two Kaioshin to fill him in on the details. He'd know there was no chance of Good Boo producing another Pure Evil Boo, whereas Vegeta didn't.

Well Trunks himself didn't think SSJ3 or something akin to it was possible, which pinpoints that he wasn't thinking of unlocking an actual transformation. So, besides the reasons you highlighted, it's not a surprise why he didn't obtain it. Goku, however, has no reason to be exempt from obtaining Enhanced SSJ2. Trunks' reasoning for obtaining it was essentially that he didn't think the standard SSJ2 was his limit, which logically would also be Goku's line of thinking hence why ascended past it.

I'd agree to it and say, though do have some other ideas to throw around. For instance, it could be that Goku's far less desperate situation, combined with the Otherworld factor that lead to him gaining the form in general, made mastering it either impossible or something to put on the backburner.
That, and/or perhaps it might also be something that's easier for hybrids to achieve? After all, we have Gohan's power ups in general or Goten/Present Trunks seemingly mastering SSJ with very little training.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Goku would have had likely known how Boo worked far better than Vegeta did, given he seemingly had knowledge of what was going on Earth in detail with the crystal ball and had the two Kaioshin to fill him in on the details. He'd know there was no chance of Good Boo producing another Pure Evil Boo, whereas Vegeta didn't.

Goku didn't disagree with, nor contradict him, so your conclusion is purely head canon. Goku simply knowing Buu more doesn't mean Vegeta is wrong.

I'd agree to it and say, though do have some other ideas to throw around. For instance, it could be that Goku's far less desperate situation, combined with the Otherworld factor that lead to him gaining the form in general, made mastering it either impossible or something to put on the backburner. That, and/or perhaps it might also be something that's easier for hybrids to achieve? After all, we have Gohan's power ups in general or Goten/Present Trunks seemingly mastering SSJ with very little training.

Sounds contrived in the grand scheme of things. Trunks was in a similarly desperate situation with the Future Androids back in the Cell Arc, even being hospitalised in a particular instance, yet no new transformation came of it, let alone to this extent. We're not given any real description of Trunks' Enhanced SSJ2 state to corroborate these ideas that you're exploring, so they just appear hollow. Goku in Other World may not have been desperate, but his drive to improve was clearly immense based on how far he came, and if anything, was further amplified with the fact that his stamina wouldn't be a limit to his training.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku didn't disagree with, nor contradict him, so your conclusion is purely head canon. Goku simply knowing Buu more doesn't mean Vegeta is wrong.

Except the previous Boo was one featuring both his good and evil sides, as opposed to purely good. There's nothing to indicate Vegeta's reasoning was right so at best, both he and Goku would be lacking on in-depth knowledge of the subject if we're to assume Goku agreed with his hypothesis.

Sounds contrived in the grand scheme of things.

I mean, most power ups after the mid point of the Freeza Arc are, especially in Super, so I wouldn't really argue against that.

Trunks was in a similarly desperate situation with the Future Androids back in the Cell Arc, even being hospitalised in a particular instance, yet no new transformation came of it, let alone to this extent.

Wouldn't argue against it being plot based. After all, Future Gohan gained far less power from over a decade of life or death battles than his present self gained from one Rosat trip.

I will say though that Trunks likely didn't face #17 and #18 directly as much as he did Black when taking into account his dialogue with Gohan suggested he didn't fight against them directly until after Gohan's death and Black being able to sense Ki would make him more of an active pursuer of Trunks. That, and Black is of a nigh-infinitely greater level than #17/18 and made it apparent he kept Trunks alive so long to help himself improve, so allowing Trunks to improve in whatever way he could would be within Black's benefit.

if anything, was further amplified with the fact that his stamina wouldn't be a limit to his training.

Which with that being the case, would give him little reason to need to overcome SS3's flaw in Otherworld. That, and he makes it clear to Boo he only recently attained the form, saying he hadn't had time to get used to it yet.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it’s just his SSJ2 power, but brought at full power. Goku did the same thing given how he achieved maxed his SSJ2 power out and achieved SSJ3, but wasn’t nearly as strong because of lesser potential.

 

[ahill1]

Trunks was in a similarly desperate situation with the Future Androids back in the Cell Arc, even being hospitalised in a particular instance, yet no new transformation came of it, let alone to this extent.

Well, Trunks back then thought of SSJ as the limit of a Saiyajin as he showed surprise at Vegeta thinking of overcoming the SSJ iirc, whereas his Black saga self knew the SSJ2 he had at a certain point wasn't the limit, hence trying to utilize it to the best of its abilities to battle this new threat. Maybe seeing how Goku and Vegeta saw the SSJ as something that could be expanded, he thought of the same once the SSJ2 wasn't sufficient. I think it could explain why Trunks from the battle with the androids didn't achieve something else.

But yeah, I agree that Goku not figuring out the SSJ2 they were making use of could be expanded on and not achieving it seems weird.

EDIT:

Except the previous Boo was one featuring both his good and evil sides, as opposed to purely good. There's nothing to indicate Vegeta's reasoning was right so at best, both he and Goku would be lacking on in-depth knowledge of the subject if we're to assume Goku agreed with his hypothesis.

Vegeta stated he had seen what happened with Fat Boo expelling Grey Boo from the other world.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Except the previous Boo was one featuring both his good and evil sides, as opposed to purely good. There's nothing to indicate Vegeta's reasoning was right so at best, both he and Goku would be lacking on in-depth knowledge of the subject if we're to assume Goku agreed with his hypothesis.

It'd be virtually pointless for Vegeta's comment to be included in the narrative if it was wrong and not corrected by a subsequent statement. If you can't actually backup what you asserted, then I'm not interested in your claim. It's not like Vegeta said it was certainly going to happen anyway; he expressed his concern as a possibility, which was enough to influence Goku to prepare for such a case.

I will say though that Trunks likely didn't face #17 and #18 directly as much as he did Black when taking into account his dialogue with Gohan suggested he didn't fight against them directly until after Gohan's death and Black being able to sense Ki would make him more of an active pursuer of Trunks. That, and Black is of a nigh-infinitely greater level than #17/18 and made it apparent he kept Trunks alive so long to help himself improve, so allowing Trunks to improve in whatever way he could would be within Black's benefit.

Both scenarios are still similar in the sense of him being involved in life or death battles, yet there's such a contrast with how much he improved in response to these threats. Like Black, Future #17 & #18 could've killed Trunks if they wanted to, but still played games despite being evil. That's why #17 initially let Gohan live. They even try to derive whatever little fun they can with standard humans, let alone someone that can really entertain them like Trunks:

Trunks himself had no clue how he was able to escape alive when he fought them prior to travelling to the past, strengthening the theme of the two of them treating his life like a game.

Which with that being the case, would give him little reason to need to overcome SS3's flaw in Otherworld. That, and he makes it clear to Boo he only recently attained the form, saying he hadn't had time to get used to it yet.

How would he have known of the flaw within Other World where the problem never presented itself? Still don't see how any of this prohibits Goku from unlocking Enhanced SSJ2, which was the main point.

Well, Trunks back then thought of SSJ as the limit of a Saiyajin as he showed surprise at Vegeta thinking of overcoming the SSJ iirc
Maybe seeing how Goku and Vegeta saw the SSJ as something that could be expanded, he thought of the same once the SSJ2 wasn't sufficient. I think it could explain why Trunks from the battle with the androids didn't achieve something else.

Considering Trunks was aiming to get stronger to fight Future #17 and #18 after Gohan's death (prior to going to the past), he would have to have thought that he had a higher limit within Super Saiyan at least. Yet something like a hypothetical Enhanced SSJ1 didn't come of it.

whereas his Black saga self knew the SSJ2 he had at a certain point wasn't the limit, hence trying to utilize it to the best of its abilities to battle this new threat.

It's not that Trunks knew his limit was higher; it was a thought. He ended up being correct, but he still had to actively get to that level. Trunks knew of SSJ2, but Enhanced SSJ2 was never a thing until he got it.

 

[ahill1]

Considering Trunks was aiming to get stronger to fight Future #17 and #18 after Gohan's death (prior to going to the past), he would have to have thought that he had a higher limit within Super Saiyan at least. Yet something like a hypothetical Enhanced SSJ1 didn't come of it. 

It's true that they could increase the SSJ through increasing their overall power, but Trunks didn't think there was something lying beyond it or that the state itself could be improved, so I think his training revolved around increasing his overall power by increasing his base power. If he thought the SSJ could be perfected like he did in the Black saga, then something could have come out of it.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I'd like to know how he achieved this kind of thing without further transforming or pumping himself up like the Grade forms. It's not like anyone else has ever considered just growing the power of a single transformation while ignoring the rest.

Well he said he never thought such a thing SSJ3 existed, so he thought SSJ2 was the highest there is and it's not like you can't get higher in the same form. SSJ2 Vegeta in BoG surpassed SSJ3 Goku & Gotenks.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

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Trunks SSJ
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