Trying to quantify Vegetto compared to Gogeta (Boo Saga).

[Cirno777]

Okay, I'm just going to throw some shit at the wall & see what sticks, this probably won't be structured very well, tell me if any of this is nonsense.

You know, it's pretty funny that after, what, 28 years? That people still talk about this shit. Oh well.

Remember:
Gohaku = Fusion of Goku & Gohan
Gokuhan = Potara fusion of Goku & Gohan

First, let's just establish the simple fact that
POTARA > FUSION

DAIZENSHUU:

Daizenshuu 4 & 7 (respectively) confirm that Potara > Fusion

Notice that not the simple conditions, having no time limit, & the greater effect, are all separate from eachother. This would suggest that the greater effect isn't having no time limit or being a simpler fusion method, more likely a greater power boost over Fusion.


& this one is pretty blunt, it just says the power is greater.

OLD KAIOUSHIN:

-Old Kaioushin stated this:

For the same reasons as the Daizenshuu 4 entry, I believe that he is talking specifically about the STRENGTH of Potara fusion, he talks about the other two upsides on their own.

If you'd like some expounding on this point, read the first half of the post on this thread by ahill1 on neoseeker forums, it basically explains it perfectly imo: https://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2281616-gogeta-compared-to-vegetto/2.htm

ngl, I've pretty much plagiarised a couple of his points, but anyway.






























STATEMENTS FROM THE CHARACTERS:
-You knew this one was coming.

Bootenks believes that a hypothetical Gohaku wouldn't be a threat.


Boohan also believes that Gogeta wouldn't be a threat.


I personally think Evil Boo is a reliable enough source for the following reasons:
1. He has absorbed Piccolo & Gotenks (who subsequently split into Goten & Trunks), each of whom are knowledgeable in Fusion & its boost to some degree.
2. He himself has fought Gotenks & witnessed the power of Fusion, & also the difference between SSJ1 & 3 (8x).

There are reasons for why Evil Boo might NOT be a reliable source though, namely, he does seem a bit off his head. Honestly, I don't remember anything specific, but I had a back & forth with one user on this site about it, maybe you can fill in there, if you're reading this.







-Goku seems doubtful that Base Gokuhan can beat Bootenks:


After being told that he shouldn't fuse as Super Saiyans, he's still reluctant about not transforming. This is after being told of the greater strength of the Potara earrings, so even expecting a stronger fusion he still isn't too sure it'll work in Base.

So Goku's Base Metamoran expectation (this is the one he should be able to accurately surmise) < initial Base Potara expectation < Bootenks

From this, I think it's reasonable to conclude that Base Gohaku/Gogeta < Bootenks, & that he'd require at least Super Saiyan to match him.




WHY GOKU PROBABLY ISN'T CONSIDERING AN SSJ3 FUSION, MORE LIKELY SSJ1 OR 2:

Gotenks is confirmed in Daizenshuu 2 to only be capable of transforming into a Super Saiyan through the training he did in the RoSaT:


Previously, Gotenks was only capable of using Super Saiyan by having Goten/Trunks fuse whilst already transformed. I think by this its reasonable to presume that this is normal for a Fusion, & therefore Goku, knowing the ins and outs of Fusion should have this in mind when imagining Gokuhan/Gogeta. When Goku was considering how a Fusion would do against Bootenks, imo it's pretty safe to conclude that he was imagining a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 Fusion, but because Gohan cannot go SSJ3, saying SSJ3 Gokuhan ~ Bootenks is probably a bit of a stretch.

This might also apply to Bootenks/Boohan's statements, because he should know this from Gotenks/Piccolo.

Then again, maybe a Fusion of SSJ3 Goku & a suppressed Ultimate Gohan is possible, but I'm going to ignore that, for simplicity's sake.








THE MEAT(NO PAUSE):

I'm going to be rolling with Gogeta = Gokuhan, because Gogeta receiving a rival boost is very unsubstantiated, & requires headcanon.

People sometimes use THIS to say Gogeta benefits from the rival boost.

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

From what I've gathered, some interpret this as Old Kaioushin saying that the reason for Vegetto's strength isn't the Potara fusion alone, & that it's the rivalry between Goku & Vegeta that boosts the power of their fusion. Which IS true, but some stretch this to include BOTH fusion methods, the thing is that in this statement the subject (Vegetto) is a Potara fusion, assuming that he includes BOTH fusion methods in this statement is, well, a stretch.











Okay, I'm going to figure where Vegetto fits into this now:

-First of all, Gokuhan in base enough to beat Bootenks:
Base Gokuhan > Bootenks


-El Manga Legendario states that Vegetto, in general terms, is stronger than Gokuhan.

Since it's in general terms, it should be that form to form, Vegetto is superior in strength.


-This, from Daizenshuu 2:

"Uniting with Goku, they become the strongest warrior."

This shouldn't be factoring in Super Vegetto, because this is the summary for chapter 503, Vegetto goes Super Saiyan in chapter 504.

It should include characters like Gohan, Gotenks, & Boohan. And out of these, Base Vegetto is stated to be the "strongest warrior".



-Dragon Ball Kyogen 2 corroborates that Vegetto > Boohan:
Ok, I've run out of space to insert attachments, so images from this point onwards will be an imgur link.

https://imgur.com/a/0tV4zDQ

The reason I say it corroborates, is because I'm not sure of the validity of the source, does anyone know what DB Kyogen 2 is?



-Vegetto > Gokuhan, based on the previous Old Kaioushin statement:

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3

Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo

Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”

Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far.

Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all.

What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

Okay, the top 3 masters in the universe are Goku, Gohan & Vegeta. Old Kaioushin states that the reason Vegetto is so strong is because he's a fusion of two of the top 3 masters, but he also goes on to say "What's more, two rivals have joined together." adding "That's definitely strongest."

What I gather from that, is out of those 3 masters of the universe, a fusion of two rivals ends up as the strongest possibility between the 3 of em.

That would also suggest that Vegetto > Gokuhan. It's already confirmed by El Manga Legendario, but it's not just a guidebook thing, there's a precedent for it in the the original text.




I think that's enough, it's reasonable enough to put Vegetto > Gokuhan based on all that. But at the very least Vegetto > Bootenks.

We already established most of the scaling I think, so I'll just chain em up now:

Base Vegetto >= Base Gokuhan > Bootenks ~ SSJ2 Gohaku/Gogeta

Represented as numbers:
Base Gohaku/Gogeta = 1
SSJ Gohaku/Gogeta = 50
SSJ2 Gohaku/Gogeta = 100
Bootenks = 100
Gohaku > 100
Vegetto > 100

The lowball could be SSJ Gohaku/Gogeta = Bootenks
Base Gohaku/Gogeta = 1
SSJ Gohaku/Gogeta = 50
SSJ2 Gohaku/Gogeta = 100
Bootenks = 50
Gohaku > 50
Vegetto > 50

The difference between Vegetto & Gogeta is probably somewhere in the region 50-100x

Well, that's my attempt to quantify the difference between Vegetto & Gogeta.








Fuck it, whilst I'm here, I may as well talk about those two V-Jump articles I always see getting brought up (especially on youtube).

1995:

https://imgur.com/a/nOtByI5

2018:

https://imgur.com/a/dGQVpjl

-About the 1995 one:

It's very likely talking about movie 12 Gogeta.

Though the reason it says Gogeta wins the match is due to the fact of "Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!!", in that case, it flat out just contradicts more reliable material (Daizenshuu).

V-Jump articles aren't written by Toriyama, they weren't created through thorough analysis of the series & interviews with Toriyama, & they don't get the go ahead as a very reliable source from him.

All of those traits I just listed are traits of the Daizenshuu series, which confirm Potara > Fusion.


-About the 2018 one, callin em "equally matched ultimate trump cards" is vague in terms of, are they talking literally equally matched in strength, or just that they're both efficient enough to take down Broly? And yeah, what I said about the 1995 article applies here.

V-Jump = unreliable source if contradicted by higher sources. Daizenshuu > V-Jump, therefore (Potara > Fusion) > (Fusion > Potara).





If you have your own idea of how to quantify the difference between Vegetto & Gogeta, or criticism of the scaling or what have you, I wouldn't mind hearing it.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku thought Fusion Dance with Gohan could beat Boo, problem being Boo wouldn’t let them do the dance. I think Gohanku can be above Gotenks-Boo.

It’s hard to explain if the rival boost exists for Metamorian because the boost itself is barelu explained. But if Fusion relies more on synchronization than Potara, I think it makes sense for it to also have a rival boost.

Side note: Would a Potara fusion of Goku and Gohan use “Kakarotto” instead of “Goku”? The way Vegetto does.

 

[Yoshi]

Which chain is true?

Vegetto > Gokuhan > Gogeta > Gohaku

Or...

Vegetto > Gogeta > Gokuhan > Gohaku

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Buu's word can't be taken of that much of an face value and it's pretty much contradictory from one point to other. IMO him believing that he can defeat Gohaku it also extends to him believing he can defeat Gogeta and him not being any impressed with SSJ Vegetto (Goku and Old Kaioshin believed that Gohaku could defeat Gotenks Buu). Also he tried to stop without a second thought to Goku both times, and doesn't seem that chilled unlike when Goku had the option to fuse with Dende.

Buu believed that him as Fat Buu can defeat SSJ3 Goku, and Piccolo wasn't sure whether SSJ3 Goku could've defeated him, so he doesn't seem to comprehend the full exent of the SSJ3 power. He also considered himself over Gotenks by saying that he was the strongest until Gohan appeared, so he doesn't have that good of a grasp in between Metamoran Fusion and SSJ3.

Goku was talking every time of a regular SSJ fusion as Vegetto access just to that form. But, Gogeta receiving a rival boost is completely headcanon as the quote itself just speaks about Goku, Vegeta and the Potaras, not only of Goku and Vegeta.

In the anime it's clear that Vegetto didn't surpass Buu in base as Buu wasn't impressed with anything he showed, unlike SSJ3 Gotenks who could make get mental unstable to his regular self.

Even though, Potara > Fusion, maybe they're trying to factor in the fact that Gogeta gets a bigger boost than a regular fusion? It also make sense for Gogeta to have a better balance as it's needed to be perfectly in synch mentally to bring him to life, whereas Vegetto can be created instantly.

As for 2018 V-Jump material, its ambiguous, anyways. And has proven to be unreliable time by time. But I have Vegetto = Gogeta in Super just due to how Gogeta talks about him "with the Potara it was Vegetto, so this time should be Gogeta" implying they're the same.

In Z, I have SSJ Gogeta being weaker than SSJ Vegetto, but SSJ Vegetto being weaker than SSJ2 Gogeta and so on.

Side note: Would a Potara fusion of Goku and Gohan use “Kakarotto” instead of “Goku”? The way Vegetto does.

Gohan never calls his father for that name, only Vegeta do that. XD

 

[Cirno777]

Goku thought Fusion Dance with Gohan could beat Boo, problem being Boo wouldn’t let them do the dance. I think Gohanku can be above Gotenks-Boo.

I definitely think Gohaku would beat Boohan, but only in at least SSJ1 or 2.

It’s hard to explain if the rival boost exists for Metamorian because the boost itself is barelu explained. But if Fusion relies more on synchronization than Potara, I think it makes sense for it to also have a rival boost.

I'd say a rival boost would be counter intuitive for a fusion based on perfect mirroring & syncing. Like, if anything, there'd be a compatibility boost, like if Goku & Gohan fused or something.

Side note: Would a Potara fusion of Goku and Gohan use “Kakarotto” instead of “Goku”? The way Vegetto does.

Likely not, the reason Vegetto is, well, Vegetto, is because I guess he draws of Vegeta's sensibilities for naming. Maybe it'd be Kakarotthan or Gohakarotto?

 

[Cirno777]

Which chain is true?

Vegetto > Gokuhan > Gogeta > Gohaku

Or...

Vegetto > Gogeta > Gokuhan > Gohaku

Vegetto > Gokuhan > Gogeta ~ Gohaku, is what I'd have. It could be that Gohaku > Gogeta, since Goku can fuse as an SSJ3 with a supressed Gohan, maybe? idk.

 

[Cirno777]

Buu's word can't be taken of that much of an face value and it's pretty much contradictory from one point to other. IMO him believing that he can defeat Gohaku it also extends to him believing he can defeat Gogeta and him not being any impressed with SSJ Vegetto (Goku and Old Kaioshin believed that Gohaku could defeat Gotenks Buu). Also he tried to stop without a second thought to Goku both times, and doesn't seem that chilled unlike when Goku had the option to fuse with Dende.

Yeah, he's not the most reliable source, but his word counts for SOMETHING imo. He also tends not to sense energy in battle, even though he clearly can (he sensed Gohan, & sensed Vegeta when he arrived on Earth for example), which I think is why he was unimpressed with Vegetto (who wasn't even going all out on Boo).





Boo was definitely convinced that Gohaku/Gogeta couldn't touch him, look at his face here:
Not even a bead of sweat or stuttering his words, nothing like that.


There's nothing that could be interpreted as doubt in these panels.

Buu believed that him as Fat Buu can defeat SSJ3 Goku, and Piccolo wasn't sure whether SSJ3 Goku could've defeated him, so he doesn't seem to comprehend the full exent of the SSJ3 power. He also considered himself over Gotenks by saying that he was the strongest until Gohan appeared, so he doesn't have that good of a grasp in between Metamoran Fusion and SSJ3.

I think Fat Boo could've beaten SSJ3 Goku, but only because of the 24hrs on Earth & candy beam, he probably was weaker.

I still disagree with you on SSJ3 Gotenks > Evil Boo, in that moment he was mentally weakened, which would in turn make him feeble & more susceptible to damage. Without that, he can still be > Gotenks. And he literally fought Gotenks in base, SSJ & SSJ3, he should feel the difference physically.

Goku was talking every time of a regular SSJ fusion as Vegetto access just to that form. But, Gogeta receiving a rival boost is completely headcanon as the quote itself just speaks about Goku, Vegeta and the Potaras, not only of Goku and Vegeta.

??? What do you mean?

In the anime it's clear that Vegetto didn't surpass Buu in base as Buu wasn't impressed with anything he showed, unlike SSJ3 Gotenks who could make get mental unstable to his regular self.

He was suppressed in the anime, Boo doesn't tend to sense energy. Besides that, I didn't use the anime I used this for example:

A guide based on the manga:

And whatever the hell this anime guide is from seems to disagree with you:

Then there's Vegetto > Gokuhan > Bootenks. The main point is that Vegetto > Bootenks, because SSJ1 or 2 Gogeta is relative to Bootenks, implying a difference of at least 50x. Boohan isn't really that relevant in that chain, but depending on how much stronger Boohan is than Bootenks, maybe you could have a larger difference between Vegetto & Gogeta (like Gohan = 1.5x Gotenks or something, so 75x or 150x Gogeta).

Even though, Potara > Fusion, maybe they're trying to factor in the fact that Gogeta gets a bigger boost than a regular fusion? It also make sense for Gogeta to have a better balance as it's needed to be perfectly in synch mentally to bring him to life, whereas Vegetto can be created instantly.

He could receive a larger Fusion multiplier, but there's no evidence for that. Besides, if you're referring to the 1995 jump thing, I considered that, but the reason they had Gogeta > Vegetto is they had Fusion > Potara, which is objectively false, not because of any inherent Gogeta boosts.

As for 2018 V-Jump material, its ambiguous, anyways. And has proven to be unreliable time by time. But I have Vegetto = Gogeta in Super just due to how Gogeta talks about him "with the Potara it was Vegetto, so this time should be Gogeta" implying they're the same.

That would only imply that personality-wise they're the same person, no reason to assume that he's equal in strength by that.

In Z, I have SSJ Gogeta being weaker than SSJ Vegetto, but SSJ Vegetto being weaker than SSJ2 Gogeta and so on.

What do you have numbers-wise? Like do you consider Super Vegetto a 6 & SSJ Gogeta a 5, or is Super Vegetto like a 7-9?

& what would change from Dragon Ball -> Super to make them equal?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Yeah, he's not the most reliable source, but his word counts for SOMETHING imo. He also tends not to sense energy in battle, even though he clearly can (he sensed Gohan, & sensed Vegeta when he arrived on Earth for example), which I think is why he was unimpressed with Vegetto (who wasn't even going all out on Boo).

View attachment 2059

Prove that Buu was all the time relying on his eyes rather than ki sensing.

Even while not going all out he was mocking Buu and had a guaranteed victory.

Boo was definitely convinced that Gohaku/Gogeta couldn't touch him, look at his face here: View attachment 2062
Not even a bead of sweat or stuttering his words, nothing like that.

View attachment 2063
There's nothing that could be interpreted as doubt in these panels.

I can see a nervous face and him thinking on a risky decision.

Buu afterwards was trying to blast him and Vegeta.

I think Fat Boo could've beaten SSJ3 Goku, but only because of the 24hrs on Earth & candy beam, he probably was weaker.

I still disagree with you on SSJ3 Gotenks > Evil Boo, in that moment he was mentally weakened, which would in turn make him feeble & more susceptible to damage. Without that, he can still be > Gotenks. And he literally fought Gotenks in base, SSJ & SSJ3, he should feel the difference physically.

Every time Buu talks about that, he talks about strength, otherwise, he wouldn't be mocking Goku due to how weak he thinks he is or actually acknowledge Gohan's strength.

Dunno, Gohan didn't seem too optimistical letting Gotenks taking care of Buu. Buu should feel the difference in between SSJ & SSJ3 Gotenks but he barely think of him and initially just noticed of a change of his appearance, as well as instigitated him to attack.

??? What do you mean?

Goku was all the time just thinking of SSJ Gohaku, doesn't make sense for him to consider other form especially knowing the disadvantages SSJ3 provoke, as well as that is the form Vegetto directly access.

He was suppressed in the anime, Boo doesn't tend to sense energy. Besides that, I didn't use the anime I used this for example:

A guide based on the manga: View attachment 2060

And whatever the hell this anime guide is from seems to disagree with you: View attachment 2061

Then there's Vegetto > Gokuhan > Bootenks. The main point is that Vegetto > Bootenks, because SSJ1 or 2 Gogeta is relative to Bootenks, implying a difference of at least 50x. Boohan isn't really that relevant in that chain, but depending on how much stronger Boohan is than Bootenks, maybe you could have a larger difference between Vegetto & Gogeta (like Gohan = 1.5x Gotenks or something, so 75x or 150x Gogeta).

Buu sense energy unless proven otherwise, Vegetto also proceeds to access to SSJ to show how he has really surpassed him.

Yes, Buu was never impressed with Base Vegetto and just wanted to absorb him when he was a SSJ.

He could receive a larger Fusion multiplier, but there's no evidence for that. Besides, if you're referring to the 1995 jump thing, I considered that, but the reason they had Gogeta > Vegetto is they had Fusion > Potara, which is objectively false, not because of any inherent Gogeta boosts.

No, Gogeta never appeared canonically, therefore we can't actually factor, but were there the message they are trying to transmit? Winning is not determined just by power.

That would only imply that personality-wise they're the same person, no reason to assume that he's equal in strength by that.

Does Gogeta consider himself anything different from Vegetto?

What do you have numbers-wise? Like do you consider Super Vegetto a 6 & SSJ Gogeta a 5, or is Super Vegetto like a 7-9?

& what would change from Dragon Ball -> Super to make them equal?

I have a greater SSJ2 multiplier than x2 due to the Cell saga implications, I just can't imagine Vegetto being that great for Gogeta. Also, all we are know is that Potara is stronger, and "stronger" doesn't automatically equate to be stronger by a vast difference.

 

[Cirno777]

Prove that Buu was all the time relying on his eyes rather than ki sensing.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there, he was literally not sensing Vegetto's ki, what does him relying on his eyes all the time have to do with anything? It's just one reason why Boo isn't super reliable.

Even while not going all out he was mocking Buu and had a guaranteed victory.

Yep, my point with that was that Boo wouldn't be able to accurately gauge Vegetto's power based on the force of his blows if he was holding back.

I can see a nervous face and him thinking on a risky decision.

Buu afterwards was trying to blast him and Vegeta.

Nervous face? He's grinning, that's a nervous face to you?

Certainly not because he thinks Gogeta could beat him.

Every time Buu talks about that, he talks about strength, otherwise, he wouldn't be mocking Goku due to how weak he thinks he is or actually acknowledge Gohan's strength.

Yeah, I agree, he didn't see SSJ3 Goku's full power.

Dunno, Gohan didn't seem too optimistical letting Gotenks taking care of Buu. Buu should feel the difference in between SSJ & SSJ3 Gotenks but he barely think of him and initially just noticed of a change of his appearance, as well as instigitated him to attack.

When I say feel the difference, I mean when he physically trades blows with Gotenks' forms, because I'm pretty sure he doesn't usually sense Ki. Him initially not noticing any difference between SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ1 would suggest he doesn't sense ki.

Goku was all the time just thinking of SSJ Gohaku, doesn't make sense for him to consider other form especially knowing the disadvantages SSJ3 provoke, as well as that is the form Vegetto directly access.

Yes, of course Goku was considering SSJ Gohaku, but when Gosen Zosama told him not to use SSJ forms, he didn't seem so confident about winning. That would suggest he needs at least SSJ1 to match Bootenks.

There's also no reason he wouldn't be considering SSJ2 Gohaku, since both him & Gohan can do that.

Buu sense energy unless proven otherwise, Vegetto also proceeds to access to SSJ to show how he has really surpassed him.

Yes, Buu was never impressed with Base Vegetto and just wanted to absorb him when he was a SSJ.

He literally didn't sense Vegetto's ki, I provided the manga scan but it's the same in the anime:




At no point against Vegetto did he sense his suppressed Ki, let alone his full power. It's simply a fact in this case.

No, Gogeta never appeared canonically, therefore we can't actually factor, but were there the message they are trying to transmit? Winning is not determined just by power.

They basically said Gogeta would win because he's stronger, here's the exact quote:

Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore, if it is a short match of thirty minutes or less, then Gogeta should win, while if it is a long battle, then Vegetto should win!!"


The reason they have Gogeta winning the fight is because he's stronger, how is he stronger? Because Fusion is stronger than Potara of course! Umm, no, that's objectively false.

Does Gogeta consider himself anything different from Vegetto?

He may or may not consider himself the same person as Vegetto, but the method of fusing into him should still produce a different strength.

He also is not identical to Vegetto, since he calls Goku "Goku", not "Kakarotto" like Vegetto does.

I have a greater SSJ2 multiplier than x2 due to the Cell saga implications,

Cell Saga implications? That's a whole 'nother can of worms, but if you mean Kid Gohan or something, he got a rage boost, so his SSJ2 is not merely a 2x boost.


Base Kid Gohan = Base Teen Gohan


SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ2 Teen Gohan

The only way there could be a difference between the two in SSJ2 is if one got a rage boost & the other didn't, & this scan expressly states that he's not as strong as he was because he couldn't power up from anger.

I just can't imagine Vegetto being that great for Gogeta. Also, all we are know is that Potara is stronger, and "stronger" doesn't automatically equate to be stronger by a vast difference.

Base Vegetto ~ Base Gokuhan, Gokuhan in base smacks Bootenks, Gohaku can't beat Bootenks in base, therefore his Super Saiyan 1 or 2 form should be roughly equivalent to Bootenks.

Vegetto > SSJ1 or 2 Gohaku
Vegetto = 50x or 100x Gohaku, who is relative to Gogeta.
Vegetto = 50-100x Gogeta, or at least his hypothetical power.

The only way I could argue that they're even somewhat relative is if Gohaku is only a smidgen beneath Bootenks, which I don't think is likely if he needs SSJ to fight Boo.

Why would there be a difference going from Z -> Super? I'm not sure why that'd be the case.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there, he was literally not sensing Vegetto's ki, what does him relying on his eyes all the time have to do with anything? It's just one reason why Boo isn't super reliable.

It's up to you to prove that he wasn't sensing ki the whole time, you just send a image when he was relying in his eyes instead of ki sensing, so that's not sufficient evidence to prove your notion.

Yep, my point with that was that Boo wouldn't be able to accurately gauge Vegetto's power based on the force of his blows if he was holding back.

Goku could acurrately gauge Cell's power even though he was holding back and realize it- that tell us that Buu's ki sensing/grasping strength is actually limited.

Nervous face? He's grinning, that's a nervous face to you?

He was tense and with a forcefully smile, that's not what I would call confidence.

Certainly not because he thinks Gogeta could beat him.

But because he doesn't want a challenge and considers it a risky decision.

Yeah, I agree, he didn't see SSJ3 Goku's full power.

Doesn't change that Fat Buu objectively wasn't stronger than holding back SSJ3 Goku, yet he expresses as how he was too weak.

When I say feel the difference, I mean when he physically trades blows with Gotenks' forms, because I'm pretty sure he doesn't usually sense Ki. Him initially not noticing any difference between SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ1 would suggest he doesn't sense ki.

Do we ever get to see Gotenks' full exent, though? When he got serious he was about to blow Buu to pieces just to go to base again. That would just prove that his ki sensing ability is too limited.

Yes, of course Goku was considering SSJ Gohaku, but when Gosen Zosama told him not to use SSJ forms, he didn't seem so confident about winning. That would suggest he needs at least SSJ1 to match Bootenks.

There's also no reason he wouldn't be considering SSJ2 Gohaku, since both him & Gohan can do that.

Goku planned to transform into SSJ since the beginning but Old Kaioshin told him that SSJ outstresses the body, Old Kaioshin factoring into power issues was never a thing. Hmmm yes his base wouldn't be sufficient against Gotenks Buu.

Spoiler

He just be thinking into SSJ as that's the only form an actually fusion came into, afterwards Vegetto was surprised at his strength, so he initially didn't comprehend how strong he actually was.

He literally didn't sense Vegetto's ki, I provided the manga scan but it's the same in the anime: View attachment 2067
View attachment 2068
View attachment 2069
View attachment 2070
View attachment 2071
At no point against Vegetto did he sense his suppressed Ki, let alone his full power. It's simply a fact in this case.

Yes, that was just in one instance.

They basically said Gogeta would win because he's stronger, here's the exact quote:

Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore, if it is a short match of thirty minutes or less, then Gogeta should win, while if it is a long battle, then Vegetto should win!!"


The reason they have Gogeta winning the fight is because he's stronger, how is he stronger? Because Fusion is stronger than Potara of course! Umm, no, that's objectively false.

Fusion having a better balance it's actually logical as their minds and spirits has to be in synch, not saying that it's completely true but it also hold merit. As well as it actually clarified as to why the lost power from diminishing powers isn't gone.

He may or may not consider himself the same person as Vegetto, but the method of fusing into him should still produce a different strength.

He also is not identical to Vegetto, since he calls Goku "Goku", not "Kakarotto" like Vegetto does.

Vegetto and Gogeta are counterparts, they wouldn't be exactly the same, or just expect him to have a different name or just calls himself Kakarott as Vegeta does to Goku? Gogeta considers himself the same being as Vegetto, as well as he selected a different name.

Cell Saga implications? That's a whole 'nother can of worms, but if you mean Kid Gohan or something, he got a rage boost, so his SSJ2 is not merely a 2x boost.

View attachment 2072
Base Kid Gohan = Base Teen Gohan

View attachment 2073
SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ2 Teen Gohan

The only way there could be a difference between the two in SSJ2 is if one got a rage boost & the other didn't, & this scan expressly states that he's not as strong as he was because he couldn't power up from anger.

Kid Gohan was objectively far stronger than Teen Gohan due to Vegeta expressing that feeling in like 3-4 times, as well as just Majin Vegeta surpassing Kid Gohan but Pre Majin Vegeta being stronger than Kid Gohan.

Base Vegetto ~ Base Gokuhan, Gokuhan in base smacks Bootenks, Gohaku can't beat Bootenks in base, therefore his Super Saiyan 1 or 2 form should be roughly equivalent to Bootenks.

Vegetto > SSJ1 or 2 Gohaku
Vegetto = 50x or 100x Gohaku, who is relative to Gogeta.
Vegetto = 50-100x Gogeta, or at least his hypothetical power.

The only way I could argue that they're even somewhat relative is if Gohaku is only a smidgen beneath Bootenks, which I don't think is likely if he needs SSJ to fight Boo.

How Gokuhan forms compare to Gotenks Buu is speculative, but I can think that SSJ Gokuhan would be more than enough to deal with Gotenks Buu.

Why would there be a difference going from Z -> Super? I'm not sure why that'd be the case.

Retcon.

 

[Cirno777]

It's up to you to prove that he wasn't sensing ki the whole time, you just send a image when he was relying in his eyes instead of ki sensing, so that's not sufficient evidence to prove your notion.

If he has to be told to sense Vegetto's Ki, then he obviously wasn't sensing Vegetto's Ki before that, what more do you want?

Goku could acurrately gauge Cell's power even though he was holding back and realize it- that tell us that Buu's ki sensing/grasping strength is actually limited.

How is Goku & Cell relevant? That's different from literally sensing Ki, Goku had to surmise it, it's a martial artist thing, not any bum can do that.

He was tense and with a forcefully smile, that's not what I would call confidence.

I'm convinced that you're just seeing what you want to see. Here, I'll give you a closeup of Boo's handsome face, & I want you to study each image carefully. Point out to me what looks like fear to you:



Yeah, he looks, so scared, right?

But because he doesn't want a challenge and considers it a risky decision.

Doesn't want a challenge. Maybe. Considers it risky. No.

I thought you were of the opinion that Boo couldn't accurately gauge strength, why are you arguing for him actually knowing how strong Gogeta/Gohaku would be?

Doesn't change that Fat Buu objectively wasn't stronger than holding back SSJ3 Goku, yet he expresses as how he was too weak.

How was he not at least equal to suppressed SSJ3 Goku? Show some evidence if you want me to believe that.

Besides, SSJ3 Goku vs Fat Boo is not relevant, Gotenks vs Evil Boo is.

Do we ever get to see Gotenks' full exent, though? When he got serious he was about to blow Buu to pieces just to go to base again. That would just prove that his ki sensing ability is too limited.

Why would Gotenks be holding back? And, like I said, when Gotenks was about to kill Boo, Boo was weakened mentally, nothing suggests that normally he wouldn't be stronger than Gotenks. In fact, him still thinking that he's the strongest would suggest that.

Can you explain what you mean by "limited Ki sensing ability"? Like, how could it be limited? You either sense Ki or you don't, Boo can definitely sense Ki, & he sensed Gohan from the Kaioushin Realm, & could tell Gohan was stronger than him, what's limited about that?

Goku planned to transform into SSJ since the beginning but Old Kaioshin told him that SSJ outstresses the body, Old Kaioshin factoring into power issues was never a thing. Hmmm yes his base wouldn't be sufficient against Gotenks Buu.

He just be thinking into SSJ as that's the only form an actually fusion came into, afterwards Vegetto was surprised at his strength, so he initially didn't comprehend how strong he actually was.

Upon being instructed not to fuse as Super Saiyans, Goku shows doubt that it'd work. And remember, a Fusion normally needs training before being able to transform, like in the case of Gotenks, that's why Goku is even asking about transforming before fusing with Gohan, so this is strictly BASE Gohaku.
"Okay... But..." But what? But will this Potara thing be enough without Super Saiyan? What other reason could Goku be saying that for?

Gosen Zosama wasn't factoring in power issues, he already knows that Base Gokuhan is already strong enough, but he can go SSJ on top of that without even training. GOKU is the one factoring in power issues, because Fusions normally can't transform without training, which is why he expresses doubt about whether the Potara fusion will be strong enough without that.

Yes, that was just in one instance.

So, lemme get this straight, you ACTUALLY think that Boo sensed him ALL THROUGHOUT their fight, but ONLY IN THIS ONE SCENE HE DOESN'T SENSE VEGETTO'S KI.
...
...
...
Idk what to say, that's nonsensical. Sorry...

How about you prove that he was sensing Ki through the whole fight, I've already posted proof that he wasn't.

Fusion having a better balance it's actually logical as their minds and spirits has to be in synch, not saying that it's completely true but it also hold merit.

Holds merit, my butt holds more merit than that, it's contradicted multiple times in superior sources.

As well as it actually clarified as to why the lost power from diminishing powers isn't gone.

Erm, that's not what it says.

Vegetto and Gogeta are counterparts, they wouldn't be exactly the same, or just expect him to have a different name or just calls himself Kakarott as Vegeta does to Goku? Gogeta considers himself the same being as Vegetto, as well as he selected a different name.

Maybe the reason he says "With the Potara it was Vegetto, right?" (paraphrasing), is because they're both fusions, not necessarily because they're the same entity, it's not like Gogeta can just steal Vegetto's name.

Kid Gohan was objectively far stronger than Teen Gohan due to Vegeta expressing that feeling in like 3-4 times, as well as just Majin Vegeta surpassing Kid Gohan but Pre Majin Vegeta being stronger than Kid Gohan.

Wait, so, what are the Cell Saga implications that put SSJ2 > 2x SSJ? The only one I've seen is people arguing for Gohan not getting a rage boost.

How Gokuhan forms compare to Gotenks Buu is speculative, but I can think that SSJ Gokuhan would be more than enough to deal with Gotenks Buu.

If you mean the Potara fusion Gokuhan, that's not speculative, it's stated by Gosen Zosama that in base he'd beat Bootenks.

As for the Fusion Gohaku, I posted evidence to suggest that his base isn't enough, so logically he'd at least need SSJ to compare to Bootenks.

Base Vegetto > Base Gokuhan > Bootenks ~ SSJ Gohaku > Base Gohaku. Goku is doubtful a base Gokuhan could fight Bootenks (even after hearing the Potara earrings are stronger), so the fairest place to put SSJ Gohaku is ~ Bootenks.

Retcon.

Potara > Fusion is still in effect though, that was never retconned.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

If he has to be told to sense Vegetto's Ki, then he obviously wasn't sensing Vegetto's Ki before that, what more do you want?

He was just relying on his eyes once. He was told to sense ki because he was getting frustrated and getting himself mentally weaker, before of that there's no evidence suggesting he wasn't.

How is Goku & Cell relevant? That's different from literally sensing Ki, Goku had to surmise it, it's a martial artist thing, not any bum can do that.

Gohan Buu couldn't tell that Vegetto was holding back- Goku could do it with Cell. He can feel the weight of the punches and is able to realize it, Buu couldn't.

I'm convinced that you're just seeing what you want to see. Here, I'll give you a closeup of Boo's handsome face, & I want you to study each image carefully. Point out to me what looks like fear to you:

Yeah, he looks, so scared, right?

No, he didn't look scared, so what? He was trying to prevent both threats to happening.

In the case between Gogeta and Buuhan, is even worse:

Spoiler

Doesn't want a challenge. Maybe. Considers it risky. No.

I thought you were of the opinion that Boo couldn't accurately gauge strength, why are you arguing for him actually knowing how strong Gogeta/Gohaku would be?

Because Buu in general doesn't know how strong he is- he only had a good grasping at Gohan and nothing more.

How was he not at least equal to suppressed SSJ3 Goku? Show some evidence if you want me to believe that.

Besides, SSJ3 Goku vs Fat Boo is not relevant, Gotenks vs Evil Boo is.

Who is saying that he wasn't his equal? He objectively wasn't stronger and couldn't beat him up unlike Gohan, Dabura or Vegeta. You were talking about that he didn't see full power SSJ3 Goku, that was the only time that he saw him and had confidence on beating him, because SSJ3 Goku's 2nd transformation was something that appeared afterwards.

Why would Gotenks be holding back? And, like I said, when Gotenks was about to kill Boo, Boo was weakened mentally, nothing suggests that normally he wouldn't be stronger than Gotenks. In fact, him still thinking that he's the strongest would suggest that.

He was trying to provoke him the whole time, please. Buu wasn't going for mental issues when Gohan let Gotenks to fight Buu but Buu traped him and Piccolo into absorbing them. Considering that Gotenks was just a little bit weaker than Gohan and Buu has to think of strategies to actually stand a chance against Gohan, that tell us that Gotenks has the edge on raw power advantage.

Can you explain what you mean by "limited Ki sensing ability"? Like, how could it be limited? You either sense Ki or you don't, Boo can definitely sense Ki, & he sensed Gohan from the Kaioushin Realm, & could tell Gohan was stronger than him, what's limited about that?

There are characters that have a better ki sensing in the story than others, Buu just as Super Buu learned to do that, Fat Buu couldn't. Yes, that's the only time he asscerted, in most of the instances he was wrong regarding everyone other than Gohan.

Upon being instructed not to fuse as Super Saiyans, Goku shows doubt that it'd work. And remember, a Fusion normally needs training before being able to transform, like in the case of Gotenks, that's why Goku is even asking about transforming before fusing with Gohan, so this is strictly BASE Gohaku.View attachment 2077
"Okay... But..." But what? But will this Potara thing be enough without Super Saiyan? What other reason could Goku being saying that for?

Gosen Zosama wasn't factoring in power issues, he already knows that Base Gokuhan is already strong enough, but he can go SSJ on top of that without even training. GOKU is the one factoring in power issues, because Fusions normally can't transform without training, which is why he expresses doubt about whether the Potara fusion will be strong enough without that.

Gotenks was the only fusion that needed training to transform and that seems a plot hole. Goku didn't know the specifics and wanted to be greatly assured by himself of all the effects and details this new Fusion method had. Goku would be thinking that base metamoran fusion wouldn't be enough for Buutenks in SSJ I agree, but that seems to be that Toriyama wanted us to know that the Potaras actually bring a greater power.

That is called being cautious.

So, lemme get this straight, you ACTUALLY think that Boo sensed him ALL THROUGHOUT their fight, but ONLY IN THIS ONE SCENE HE DOESN'T SENSE VEGETTO'S KI.
...
...
...
Idk what to say, that's nonsensical. Sorry...

How about you prove that he was sensing Ki through the whole fight, I've already posted proof that he wasn't.

Yes, he was mentally frustrated and was getting out of tricks step-by-step. Before of that he conserved his usual personality and was as calm/chill as ever.

Holds merit, my butt holds more merit than that, it's contradicted multiple times in superior sources.

Gogeta requires mental effectivity, Vegetto doesn't.

Erm, that's not what it says.

" Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!!"

Maybe the reason he says "With the Potara it was Vegetto, right?" (paraphrasing), is because they're both fusions, not necessarily because they're the same entity, it's not like Gogeta can just steal Vegetto's name.

They're the same being as both the same components create him. He doesn't consider him as something different from himself but the product of creation is entirely different.

Wait, so, what are the Cell Saga implications that put SSJ2 > 2x SSJ? The only one I've seen is people arguing for Gohan not getting a rage boost.

SSJ Gohan coming from far weaker than Perfect Cell to surpass his 3 more powerful forms (Perfect Cell, Buff and Super Perfect Cell) as a SSJ2.

If you mean the Potara fusion Gokuhan, that's not speculative, it's stated by Gosen Zosama that in base he'd beat Bootenks.

As for the Fusion Gohaku, I posted evidence to suggest that his base isn't enough, so logically he'd at least need SSJ to compare to Bootenks.

Base Vegetto > Base Gokuhan > Bootenks ~ SSJ Gokuhan > Base Gohaku. Goku is doubtful a base Gokuhan could fight Bootenks (even after hearing the Potara earrings are stronger), so the fairest place to put SSJ Gohaku is ~ Bootenks.

Ah yes, I wanted to talk about metamoran Gokhan, agree with Base metamoran Gokhan < Gotenks Buu. Goku never said he wouldn't be able to fight him, but is searching a way to defeat him.

Potara > Fusion is still in effect though, that was never retconned.

Proof? Gogeta basically stated he and Vegetto are the same entity and not considered him anything different from himself, with Potara no longer being permanent, there's no reason as to why Vegetto has to be stronger.

 

[Cirno777]

He was just relying on his eyes once. He was told to sense ki because he was getting frustrated and getting himself mentally weaker, before of that there's no evidence suggesting he wasn't.

Him having to be told to sense Ki is evidence that he wasn't sensing prior, it's simple.

Gohan Buu couldn't tell that Vegetto was holding back- Goku could do it with Cell. He can feel the weight of the punches and is able to realize it, Buu couldn't.

Yeah, Boo couldn't tell Vegetto was holding back, but how is that relevant?

No, he didn't look scared, so what? He was trying to prevent both threats to happening.

In the case between Gogeta and Buuhan, is even worse:

Why don't you also read what he is actually saying as well, just because he's trying to stop it doesn't mean he thinks he'd lose.

Who is saying that he wasn't his equal? He objectively wasn't stronger and couldn't beat him up unlike Gohan, Dabura or Vegeta. You were talking about that he didn't see full power SSJ3 Goku, that was the only time that he saw him and had confidence on beating him, because SSJ3 Goku's 2nd transformation was something that appeared afterwards.

Okay, I guess I misinterpreted your words, sorry, but why does SSJ3 Goku even matter here?

He was trying to provoke him the whole time, please. Buu wasn't going for mental issues when Gohan let Gotenks to fight Buu but Buu traped him and Piccolo into absorbing them.

??? Yeah, he absorbed them so he could surpass Gohan, that doesn't mean he doesn't surpass Gotenks.

Considering that Gotenks was just a little bit weaker than Gohan and Buu has to think of strategies to actually stand a chance against Gohan, that tell us that Gotenks has the edge on raw power advantage.

No, it tells us Gohan > Boo, it doesn't tell us Gotenks > Boo.

There are characters that have a better ki sensing in the story than others, Buu just as Super Buu learned to do that, Fat Buu couldn't. Yes, that's the only time he asscerted, in most of the instances he was wrong regarding everyone other than Gohan.

Or, he simply doesn't bother sensing sometimes, like I proved with Vegetto.

He was only wrong about SSJ3 Goku because Goku didn't use full power (& at that point I don't think he could sense Ki).

He sensed Gohan & ascertained his power accurately.

He can clearly sense Ki perfectly fine, so why wouldn't he think Gotenks is stronger than him? You say it's because he suddenly can't sense for shit, I say because Gotenks isn't stronger. There's also the fact that he traded blows with him, you don't need to sense Ki well for that.

Gotenks was the only fusion that needed training to transform and that seems a plot hole. Goku didn't know the specifics and wanted to be greatly assured by himself of all the effects and details this new Fusion method had.

If he already thinks that they can transform after fusing, why would he even bother asking whether or not he should transform before fusing? He would only ask about that if Fusions couldn't normally do that.

Goku would be thinking that base metamoran fusion wouldn't be enough for Buutenks in SSJ I agree, but that seems to be that Toriyama wanted us to know that the Potaras actually bring a greater power.

Erm, so you agree about Vegetto = 50x Gogeta? Or do you think Bootenks > Vegetto?

That is called being cautious.

If Gohaku's base was strong enough to fight Bootenks, there'd be no issue with an even stronger method. He's not just being cautious, he doesn't think the superior Gokuhan could beat Bootenks in base.

Yes, he was mentally frustrated and was getting out of tricks step-by-step. Before of that he conserved his usual personality and was as calm/chill as ever.

I don't see the relevance.

Gogeta requires mental effectivity, Vegetto doesn't.

That doesn't mean an increase in power, having good balance is simply the prerequisite for Fusion.

" Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!!"

That's saying Fusion > Potara, nothing about diminished power being brought back out.

They're the same being as both the same components create him. He doesn't consider him as something different from himself but the product of creation is entirely different.

That doesn't necessarily follow, me & my brother are both made from the same components, but we aren't the same person.

Gogeta is a different person, he doesn't even have the same mannerisms as Vegetto (saying Kakarotto), that means they aren't the same exact entity. Maybe something like brothers, but not the same person.

SSJ Gohan coming from far weaker than Perfect Cell to surpass his 3 more powerful forms (Perfect Cell, Buff and Super Perfect Cell) as a SSJ2.

That's what I'm talking about, Kid Gohan's rage boost. His SSJ2 is an extraordinary case, & shouldn't be used as the basis for the SSJ2 multiplier.

Ah yes, I wanted to talk about metamoran Gokhan, agree with Base metamoran Gokhan < Gotenks Buu. Goku never said he wouldn't be able to fight him, but is searching a way to defeat him.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that SSJ1 or 2 Gohaku/Gogeta could take Bootenks, it's just that his base can't. On the other hand, Vegetto can & in base.

Okay, can you take them & put them in a chain, I wanna see where you put Vegetto & Gogeta.

Like, do you think Base Vegetto > Base Gogeta > Bootenks ~ SSJ Gohaku?

And you must think Gogeta > Gohaku right?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Him having to be told to sense Ki is evidence that he wasn't sensing prior, it's simple.

At that point he was enraged an not thinking straight, nothing suggest he wasn't before of that.

Yeah, Boo couldn't tell Vegetto was holding back, but how is that relevant?

That his ki sensing/grasping ability is too limited and doesn't comprehend the full exent of his power.

Why don't you also read what he is actually saying as well, just because he's trying to stop it doesn't mean he thinks he'd lose.

He is exagerating when he said that they could be no match even after fusing, but his self confidence ruin him from thinking clearly. This also goes in hand with Buu not knowing how strong he is.

Okay, I guess I misinterpreted your words, sorry, but why does SSJ3 Goku even matter here?

??? Yeah, he absorbed them so he could surpass Gohan, that doesn't mean he doesn't surpass Gotenks.

Because he doesn't comprehend the SSJ3 multiplier at its full exent. He considers himself stronger than SSJ3 Goku as Fat Buu.

You didn't adress at the fact that Gotenks was actually holding back initially against Buu. Gohan was fine with letting him finish Buu.

No, it tells us Gohan > Boo, it doesn't tell us Gotenks > Boo.

Gohan has a greater edge over Buu than what he has over Gotenks who considered himself the strongest in the universe even while fighting Buu.

Or, he simply doesn't bother sensing sometimes, like I proved with Vegetto.

He was only wrong about SSJ3 Goku because Goku didn't use full power (& at that point I don't think he could sense Ki).

He sensed Gohan & ascertained his power accurately.
View attachment 2079
He can clearly sense Ki perfectly fine, so why wouldn't he think Gotenks is stronger than him? You say it's because he suddenly can't sense for shit, I say because Gotenks isn't stronger. There's also the fact that he traded blows with him, you don't need to sense Ki well for that.

Well, Fat Buu can't sense ki and SSJ3 Goku was just pulling his punches. He doesn't seem to bother with sensing Gotenks, either, or thinks as himself as the greatest, even though he isn't, but can't lie with Gohan being stronger than him.

Gotenks objectively dominated him and Piccolo believed that Gotenks was at least as strong as him.

If he already thinks that they can transform after fusing, why would he even bother asking whether or not he should transform before fusing? He would only ask about that if Fusions couldn't normally do that.

Being cautious, or he simply doesn't know. Goku had not that much of knowledge regarding Fusion Dance as he just learned it.

Erm, so you agree about Vegetto = 50x Gogeta? Or do you think Bootenks > Vegetto?


If Gohaku's base was strong enough to fight Bootenks, there'd be no issue with an even stronger method. He's not just being cautious, he doesn't think the superior Gokuhan could beat Bootenks in base.

Not neccesarily, just that base Potara Fusion can do greater things that base Metamoran Fusion.

It was stronger by an unquantifiable amount. Yes, there is when a fusion produced of that method resulted being extremely weak such as Kibitoshin.

I don't see the relevance.

He wasn't just sensing ki on that instance, before of that he was.

That doesn't mean an increase in power, having good balance is simply the prerequisite for Fusion.


That's saying Fusion > Potara, nothing about diminished power being brought back out.

The text says this: Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Which is related to mental effectivety.


It is actually claryfying that has a better balance (in mind) and that is able to draw the power to their max never said Potara wasn't.

That doesn't necessarily follow, me & my brother are both made from the same components, but we aren't the same person.

Gogeta is a different person, he doesn't even have the same mannerisms as Vegetto (saying Kakarotto), that means they aren't the same exact entity. Maybe something like brothers, but not the same person.

You and your brother co-exist, doesn't it? How is that a possible explanation?

That's what I'm talking about, Kid Gohan's rage boost. His SSJ2 is an extraordinary case, & shouldn't be used as the basis for the SSJ2 multiplier.

In my case, SSJ2 increases more than twice otherwise it wouldn't make sense for SSJ Goku (Buu Saga) to surpass SSJ Gohan (Cell Games).

Yes, I'm pretty sure that SSJ1 or 2 Gohaku/Gogeta could take Bootenks, it's just that his base can't. On the other hand, Vegetto can & in base.

Okay, can you take them & put them in a chain, I wanna see where you put Vegetto & Gogeta.

Like, do you think Base Vegetto > Base Gogeta > Bootenks ~ SSJ Gohaku?

And you must think Gogeta > Gohaku right?

I have SSJ Gohaku stronger than Gotenks Buu, but don't know how Base Vegetto & Gogeta, they're definitely weaker than Gohan Buu, though.

Maybe SSJ Gohaku > Base Gokhan > Gotenks Buu >=< Base Vegetto > Base Gogeta ~ Base Gohaku.

 

[Cirno777]

At that point he was enraged an not thinking straight, nothing suggest he wasn't before of that.

Being enraged doesn't stop you from sensing Ki.

That his ki sensing/grasping ability is too limited and doesn't comprehend the full exent of his power.

If Vegetto isn't outputting his full power, how do you expect anyone to sense it? It's suppression.

He is exagerating when he said that they could be no match even after fusing, but his self confidence ruin him from thinking clearly. This also goes in hand with Buu not knowing how strong he is.

So do you think he knows how strong Gogeta/Gohaku & tried to stop it because he's weaker, or does he thinks he's stronger & is being cocky? He can't think both at the same time.

Because he doesn't comprehend the SSJ3 multiplier at its full exent. He considers himself stronger than SSJ3 Goku as Fat Buu.

Goku is a non factor because he'd get his idea of an SSJ3 multiplier from Gotenks, not Goku.

You didn't adress at the fact that Gotenks was actually holding back initially against Buu. Gohan was fine with letting him finish Buu.

The only thing he was holding back were his forms.

Yeah, under his guard & after Goten/Trunks/Gotenks insisted on it, besides, they can both be relative with one stronger than the other.

Evil Boo = 100
SSJ3 Gotenks = 99
See?

Gohan has a greater edge over Buu than what he has over Gotenks who considered himself the strongest in the universe even while fighting Buu.

I don't know how you would guess that, Gohan & Gotenks never fight & aren't compared, other than Goten saying "he's stronger!" & Trunks saltily back-pedaling with "Well, maybe a little...".

Trunks says Gohan =< Gotenks, but Goten corrects & says he's stronger, the degree is unspecified, then Trunks says "maybe a little". & no, Trunks' statement is biased.

Well, Fat Buu can't sense ki and SSJ3 Goku was just pulling his punches. He doesn't seem to bother with sensing Gotenks, either, or thinks as himself as the greatest, even though he isn't, but can't lie with Gohan being stronger than him.

He doesn't need to sense Gotenks, he fought him & still didn't think he was stronger. That's that. What I'm sayin is that sometimes he senses Ki, sometimes he doesn't bother. But the way you have it is that he can't sense accurately, which is false, he sensed Gohan perfectly fine & could tell exactly how strong he was.

You think that he can't sense Ki accurately in some cases, but with Vegetto he definitely does? What's with that?

Being cautious, or he simply doesn't know. Goku had not that much of knowledge regarding Fusion Dance as he just learned it.

Why wouldn't he have knowledge of Fusion, he learned it from the Metamorans. And you don't actually know when he learned it, so I'm not sure why you say that.

Not neccesarily, just that base Potara Fusion can do greater things that base Metamoran Fusion.

It was stronger by an unquantifiable amount. Yes, there is when a fusion produced of that method resulted being extremely weak such as Kibitoshin.

Not really, Kibishin was weak because his constituents were weak.

He wasn't just sensing ki on that instance, before of that he was.

He was sensing before then, but not against Vegetto. If you think otherwise, provide scans or screenshots.

The text says this: Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Which is related to mental effectivety.


It is actually claryfying that has a better balance (in mind) and that is able to draw the power to their max never said Potara wasn't.

Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore, if it is a short match of thirty minutes or less, then Gogeta should win, while if it is a long battle, then Vegetto should win!!"

It says "Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore" Therefore, implies that because of the preceding statement (that Fusion is stronger), Gogeta would win against Vegetto in that 30 minutes. It's literally saying that Gogeta > Vegetto, because Fusion > Potara.

Do you actually think that Fusion > Potara & Gogeta > Vegetto, because that is what it says.

And again, synchronicity is simply a prerequisite for the Fusion to succeed, it's not a power boost, otherwise all Fusions would get it, it's not like you can fuse if you're not perfectly synchronised.

You and your brother co-exist, doesn't it? How is that a possible explanation?

It's metaphorical, you say Gogeta = Vegetto because they are both Goku x Vegeta. It's much the same with me & my brother, in that my Mother x Father = Me & = Brother, same ingredients different products.

& then there's how Gogeta calls Goku "Goku" & Vegetto calls him "Kakarotto", that right there is all that's necessary to disprove that notion. Explain that.

In my case, SSJ2 increases more than twice otherwise it wouldn't make sense for SSJ Goku (Buu Saga) to surpass SSJ Gohan (Cell Games).

Why wouldn't that make sense? Can you expound on that, sounds like it might be interesting.

I have SSJ Gohaku stronger than Gotenks Buu, but don't know how Base Vegetto & Gogeta, they're definitely weaker than Gohan Buu, though.

Why is SSJ Gohaku > Bootenks, what reasoning is there for that? He needs SSJ to match Bootenks, I'd say that's a little too generous.

Hahaha, you wanna start about Base Vegetto >=< Boohan? Okay, well I've already posted that Vegetto > Gokuhan, I also posted this:
It doesn't factor in Super Vegetto, this is the summary of ch. 503, Super Vegetto appears in ch. 504. And it should obviously include Gotenks, Gohan, Bootenks, & Boohan.

There was this anime guide:

There's statements from the anime narrator that Base Vegetto was on par with Boohan:

Maybe SSJ Gohaku > Base Gokhan > Gotenks Buu >=< Base Vegetto > Base Gogeta ~ Base Gohaku.

Hmmmmm... Interesting. Sorry if this comes off as rude, I'm just gonna critique your chain now.

Base Gohaku ~ Base Gogeta < Base Vegetto, nothing wrong there.

Base Vegetto >=< Bootenks.
Okay, firstly, Base Vegetto has multiple sources that put him over Boohan (Daizenshuu 2, Kyogen 2, the anime narrator), so by that he'd be > Bootenks at least. Base Gokuhan > Bootenks, Base Vegetto > Base Gokuhan, it's implied in Gosen Zosama's statements, & confirmed in EML, that puts him over at least Bootenks for sure.

Bootenks < Base Gokuhan < SSJ Gohaku.
Not sure whats with SSJ Gohaku, & my question is, what is the logic there? Why is he stronger than Base Gokuhan? I don't see any reason to put him there if he needs SSJ to match Bootenks, & I'm interested in why.


I think I posted an incomplete chain in another post, but this is fully what I think, just so you know where exactly my opinion lies here.
Base Vegetto >= Boohan >=< Base Gokuhan > Bootenks ~ SSJ2, 1 & Base Gogeta/Gohaku.
Well maybe it's SSJ1 ~ Bootenks, but that's the highest I'd put them.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Being enraged doesn't stop you from sensing Ki.

It affects mentally and provoke someone to not be thinking clearly, this is no different from Cell still thinking that he could defeat Gohan after realizing how he easily outclasses.

If Vegetto isn't outputting his full power, how do you expect anyone to sense it? It's suppression.

No proof of SSJ Vegetto being suppressed, though. Also, just behind the weight of the punches is enough to realize if someone outclasses you as shown with Good Buu acknowledging that he can't defeat Kid Buu. Goku could tell that Cell was holding back in effort, Piccolo also could with Goku against Fat Buu. So what's make it impossible, exactly?

So do you think he knows how strong Gogeta/Gohaku & tried to stop it because he's weaker, or does he thinks he's stronger & is being cocky? He can't think both at the same time.

He doesn't have an accurate grasp on SSJ3 nor Metamoran Fusion, so no reason for him to know how strong Gogeta or Gohaku would be.

Goku is a non factor because he'd get his idea of an SSJ3 multiplier from Gotenks, not Goku.


The only thing he was holding back were his forms.

Yeah, under his guard & after Goten/Trunks/Gotenks insisted on it, besides, they can both be relative with one stronger than the other.

Evil Boo = 100
SSJ3 Gotenks = 99
See?


I don't know how you would guess that, Gohan & Gotenks never fight & aren't compared, other than Goten saying "he's stronger!" & Trunks saltily back-pedaling with "Well, maybe a little...".

Trunks says Gohan =< Gotenks, but Goten corrects & says he's stronger, the degree is unspecified, then Trunks says "maybe a little". & no, Trunks' statement is biased.


He doesn't need to sense Gotenks, he fought him & still didn't think he was stronger. That's that. What I'm sayin is that sometimes he senses Ki, sometimes he doesn't bother. But the way you have it is that he can't sense accurately, which is false, he sensed Gohan perfectly fine & could tell exactly how strong he was.

And still believed that Gotenks was below him, so he was unable to realize that he was stronger than him.

SSJ3 Gotenks initially was provoking him and mocking him.

Gohan didn't stop him from doing so, he also gave him the approved when it comes to defeat Buu, but have to be cautious.

Buu having power advantage would mean that he would defeat Buu as his hax techniques would benefit a whole lot and basically a suicide attempt considering the SSJ3 issues.

Trunks statement isn't biased, because Goku & Gohan pretty much were on his favour, and as well as proved to be stronger, the notion behind Gotenks being below Buu doesn't work as Piccolo stated that Gotenks has at least strength equal to his.

You think that he can't sense Ki accurately in some cases, but with Vegetto he definitely does? What's with that?

So? Freeza fought SSJ Goku and he didn't think Goku surpassed him as well as was confident with the idea of defeating him, it's clear that villains doesn't always get convinced of their inferiority unless there is a large gap.

Why wouldn't he have knowledge of Fusion, he learned it from the Metamorans. And you don't actually know when he learned it, so I'm not sure why you say that.

Goku says that he has never tested it out, and was just taught the art.

Not really, Kibishin was weak because his constituents were weak.

Goten and Trunks are weaker than Buu Saga Gohan and see the results with Gotenks.

He was sensing before then, but not against Vegetto. If you think otherwise, provide scans or screenshots.

He was also sensing against Vegetto, was just that the mental issues were afterwards affecting him and making him to make desperate moves such as that, in an relaxed state of mind, characters sense ki normally and Buu was chill with Vegetto.

The fact that Buu in the anime states that base Vegetto has greatly powered up in relation to Goku and Vegeta is a proof.

Spoiler

Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore, if it is a short match of thirty minutes or less, then Gogeta should win, while if it is a long battle, then Vegetto should win!!"

It says "Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore" Therefore, implies that because of the preceding statement (that Fusion is stronger), Gogeta would win against Vegetto in that 30 minutes. It's literally saying that Gogeta > Vegetto, because Fusion > Potara.

Do you actually think that Fusion > Potara & Gogeta > Vegetto, because that is what it says.

And again, synchronicity is simply a prerequisite for the Fusion to succeed, it's not a power boost, otherwise all Fusions would get it, it's not like you can fuse if you're not perfectly synchronised.

Having a better balance =/= being stronger

Not a power boost but they can be factoring into the fact that Gogeta exceeds a normal fusion and can actually put up a fight against Vegetto.

It's metaphorical, you say Gogeta = Vegetto because they are both Goku x Vegeta. It's much the same with me & my brother, in that my Mother x Father = Me & = Brother, same ingredients different products.

& then there's how Gogeta calls Goku "Goku" & Vegetto calls him "Kakarotto", that right there is all that's necessary to disprove that notion. Explain that.

Yes, Gogeta doesn't acknowledge Vegetto as something different from him, at the end, both have the same mind. Of course, Gogeta already existed before canon, they wouldn't change their name, no need to do that.

Why wouldn't that make sense? Can you expound on that, sounds like it might be interesting.

Because if SSJ2 Goku (Buu Saga) is stronger than SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games) it's the same case on equal forms, and SSJ Goku (Cell Games) is weaker than that version of SSJ Gohan. So, it has always to be the same case, because if you want to argue Gohan having a greater boost, Goku and by extension Vegeta gets a greater multiplier as well.

Why is SSJ Gohaku > Bootenks, what reasoning is there for that? He needs SSJ to match Bootenks, I'd say that's a little too generous.

Hahaha, you wanna start about Base Vegetto >=< Boohan? Okay, well I've already posted that Vegetto > Gokuhan, I also posted this: View attachment 2080
It doesn't factor in Super Vegetto, this is the summary of ch. 503, Super Vegetto appears in ch. 504. And it should obviously include Gotenks, Gohan, Bootenks, & Boohan.

There was this anime guide: View attachment 2081

There's statements from the anime narrator that Base Vegetto was on par with Boohan: View attachment 2082
View attachment 2083
View attachment 2085View attachment 2086

Goku considering that SSJ Gohaku defeating him, SSJ2 was left as seen with Vegetto. Goku was always factoring in SSJ and it doesn't make sense as Vegetto himself was surprised at how strong he is, so initially he didn't comprehend the full exent of his strength.

Buu could tell that Gohan surpassed him, but he wouldn't know Vegetto even in his base form did?

I can see logical Base Vegetto = Gohan Buu, though.

Hmmmmm... Interesting. Sorry if this comes off as rude, I'm just gonna critique your chain now.

Base Gohaku ~ Base Gogeta < Base Vegetto, nothing wrong there.

Base Vegetto >=< Bootenks.
Okay, firstly, Base Vegetto has multiple sources that put him over Boohan (Daizenshuu 2, Kyogen 2, the anime narrator), so by that he'd be > Bootenks at least. Base Gokuhan > Bootenks, Base Vegetto > Base Gokuhan, it's implied in Gosen Zosama's statements, & confirmed in EML, that puts him over at least Bootenks for sure.

Bootenks < Base Gokuhan < SSJ Gohaku.
Not sure whats with SSJ Gohaku, & my question is, what is the logic there? Why is he stronger than Base Gokuhan? I don't see any reason to put him there if he needs SSJ to match Bootenks, & I'm interested in why.

I think I posted an incomplete chain in another post, but this is fully what I think, just so you know where exactly my opinion lies here.
Base Vegetto >= Boohan >=< Base Gokuhan > Bootenks ~ SSJ2, 1 & Base Gogeta/Gohaku.
Well maybe it's SSJ1 ~ Bootenks, but that's the highest I'd put them.

Old Kaioshin refers to SSJ Vegetto, though. The narrator says Base Vegetto = Gohan Buu and the end of their equality was when he transformed into SSJ.

No reason as to Gokhan being far greater than Gohaku.

I don't know about how Gohan Buu being compared to Gokhan, he has to be weaker as he isn't pleny to defeat his weaker form Gotenks Buu.

 

[Cirno777]

Sorry for the super late reply, I was traveling, & had to get settled in also.

It affects mentally and provoke someone to not be thinking clearly, this is no different from Cell still thinking that he could defeat Gohan after realizing how he easily outclasses.

Vegetto told him that he needs to sense his Ki, if Boo wasn't able to sense because he was angry, I feel like he'd tell him to calm down instead giving him a lecture.

Also, do you actually think Boohan's assessment/sensing of Vegetto is accurate? He must've sensed Gotenks, & Boo still believed Gotenks was inferior, which you clearly disagree with.

No proof of SSJ Vegetto being suppressed, though. Also, just behind the weight of the punches is enough to realize if someone outclasses you as shown with Good Buu acknowledging that he can't defeat Kid Buu. Goku could tell that Cell was holding back in effort, Piccolo also could with Goku against Fat Buu. So what's make it impossible, exactly?

If Vegetto isn't outputting his full power, you can't sense it, the best you can do is guess how strong he really is (like with Goku & Cell, Piccolo & SSJ3 Goku) but that requires more martial experience than Boo has.

Also, Pure Boo wasn't suppressed as far as I know.

Proof that Vegetto never used his full power:

He doesn't have an accurate grasp on SSJ3 nor Metamoran Fusion, so no reason for him to know how strong Gogeta or Gohaku would be.

I disagree with you there.

And still believed that Gotenks was below him, so he was unable to realize that he was stronger than him.

Gotenks was below him, you have to prove that he's not.

SSJ3 Gotenks initially was provoking him and mocking him.

Ok, with SSJ3 Gotenks, that's why Evil Boo was getting weaker, because of his frustration.

Gohan didn't stop him from doing so, he also gave him the approved when it comes to defeat Buu, but have to be cautious.

Because they're relative, Boo only has to be a smidge stronger than Gotenks for Boo to still be the strongest (other than Gohan).

Buu having power advantage would mean that he would defeat Buu as his hax techniques would benefit a whole lot and basically a suicide attempt considering the SSJ3 issues.

Erm, can you rephrase that, I find the wording of that sentence confusing.

Trunks statement isn't biased,

Yes, Trunks' statement is clearly biased, he initially started by saying that Gohan was only almost as strong as Gotenks, that tarnishes any further statements from Trunks about Gohan & Gotenks.

because Goku & Gohan pretty much were on his favour, and as well as proved to be stronger,

Only against a frustrated Evil Boo.

the notion behind Gotenks being below Buu doesn't work as Piccolo stated that Gotenks has at least strength equal to his.

Can you post a scan? I can't seem to find that statement.

So? Freeza fought SSJ Goku and he didn't think Goku surpassed him as well as was confident with the idea of defeating him, it's clear that villains doesn't always get convinced of their inferiority unless there is a large gap.

Freeza cannot sense Ki. And I don't think that comparison is valid, considering Freeza & Boo are two separate characters.

Goku says that he has never tested it out, and was just taught the art.

That doesn't mean he hasn't got a good idea of the Fusion boost & it's mechanics, he learned it from the source after all.

Goten and Trunks are weaker than Buu Saga Gohan and see the results with Gotenks.

??? They're not weaker than Gohan, at least not the one that fought Dabura.

He was also sensing against Vegetto, was just that the mental issues were afterwards affecting him and making him to make desperate moves such as that, in an relaxed state of mind, characters sense ki normally and Buu was chill with Vegetto.

You can't actually prove that Boo always senses though, & because he had to be tutored by Vegetto about sensing Ki, it's safe to assume that he doesn't always sense it.

The fact that Buu in the anime states that base Vegetto has greatly powered up in relation to Goku and Vegeta is a proof.

Actually, he says that right before Vegetto becomes Super Vegetto. They fought throughout the whole episode before that, so he doesn't need to sense his Ki to tell he's more powerful than Goku & Vegeta.

My reply is gonna have to be in here, because I'll definitely run out of image attachments with this one:

https://imgur.com/a/zFmIy91

Having a better balance =/= being stronger

Not a power boost but they can be factoring into the fact that Gogeta exceeds a normal fusion and can actually put up a fight against Vegetto.

Again, they specifically state that Gogeta > Vegetto in relation to power.

Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their ****power**** out to the max!!

According to this, Fusion has better balance, & results in a more powerful result. They say nothing about him exceeding a normal Fusion or anything like that, they say Fusion is able to draw out more power than Potara fusion, and you already know about how false that is.

Yes, Gogeta doesn't acknowledge Vegetto as something different from him, at the end, both have the same mind. Of course, Gogeta already existed before canon, they wouldn't change their name, no need to do that.

As I said, him saying "With Potara's it was Vegetto, right?" could very well just be for the fact that they are both fusions of Goku & Vegeta, so Gogeta has to come up with another name.

If they have different mannerisms, then they don't have the same mind. One chooses to call Goku "Goku", & the other chooses to call Goku "Kakarotto".

Because if SSJ2 Goku (Buu Saga) is stronger than SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games) it's the same case on equal forms, and SSJ Goku (Cell Games) is weaker than that version of SSJ Gohan. So, it has always to be the same case, because if you want to argue Gohan having a greater boost, Goku and by extension Vegeta gets a greater multiplier as well.

Goku & Vegeta surpassed SSJ2 Cell Game Gohan by training, they didn't get any rage boost like Gohan, so the 2x SSJ1 is fine for them.

Goku considering that SSJ Gohaku defeating him, SSJ2 was left as seen with Vegetto.

Why wouldn't it be SSJ2 Gohaku? Both Goku & Gohan can use the form, so why wouldn't Goku be considering that they fuse as SSJ2s for the best chance of success?

Goku was always factoring in SSJ and it doesn't make sense as Vegetto himself was surprised at how strong he is, so initially he didn't comprehend the full exent of his strength.

When Goku was told not to use use SSJ, he'd be considering a base Gokuhan (who he was just told would be stronger than Gokuhan), & seems to express doubt in that fusion's success.

I don't know what your point is with Vegetto there? That would just widen the gap between them.

Buu could tell that Gohan surpassed him, but he wouldn't know Vegetto even in his base form did?

I can see logical Base Vegetto = Gohan Buu, though

That's why I'm saying that he never sensed Vegetto.

So do you agree that Base Vegetto = Boohan? Or if not, Bootenks at least?

Old Kaioshin refers to SSJ Vegetto, though.

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3

Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo

Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”

Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far.

Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all.

What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

They are discussing the about Potaras themselves, he says that considering a fusion between Goku, Vegeta, or Gohan, a fusion of Goku & Vegeta is what's strongest.

It's also confirmed in EML.

No reason as to Gokhan being far greater than Gohaku.

Except for the fact that Gohaku needs Super Saiyan & Gokuhan doesn't.

I don't know about how Gohan Buu being compared to Gokhan, he has to be weaker as he isn't pleny to defeat his weaker form Gotenks Buu.

Boohan vs Base Gokuhan isn't too dry cut, because Gokuhan was only confirmed > Bootenks, & obviously Boohan is a grade above that. But Gosen Zosama also states that Gokuhan is plenty enough for Bootenks, so he'd be in a grade above Bootenks also. That's why I put >=<, to show how it's not too definite.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Vegetto told him that he needs to sense his Ki, if Boo wasn't able to sense because he was angry, I feel like he'd tell him to calm down instead giving him a lecture.

Also, do you actually think Boohan's assessment/sensing of Vegetto is accurate? He must've sensed Gotenks, & Boo still believed Gotenks was inferior, which you clearly disagree with.

Buu is not a partner of him for him to help he was just trying to make him get enraged so Buu can absorb him and save the others.

When did Buu proved to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks? He is sensing Vegetto properly initially as he is calmed and regular minded, he was frustrated and enraged against him at large depth.

If Vegetto isn't outputting his full power, you can't sense it, the best you can do is guess how strong he really is (like with Goku & Cell, Piccolo & SSJ3 Goku) but that requires more martial experience than Boo has.

Also, Pure Boo wasn't suppressed as far as I know.

Proof that Vegetto never used his full power:

Freeza could tell that Goku was hiding power despite of never having trained.

Yes, and we have no evidence that Vegetto was suppressing his ki, we have statements that (for example) Goku was showing just half of his power in SSJ, we never got that kind of statement for Vegetto or coming that from his mouth so it's not up to us to decide him being suppressed.

Kid Buu was using different levels of effort against both Vegeta and Good Buu as he was initially "struggling", but afterwards he was easily overpowering him and stopping him with his legs.

I disagree with you there.


Gotenks was below him, you have to prove that he's not.


Ok, with SSJ3 Gotenks, that's why Evil Boo was getting weaker, because of his frustration.


Because they're relative, Boo only has to be a smidge stronger than Gotenks for Boo to still be the strongest (other than Gohan).


Erm, can you rephrase that, I find the wording of that sentence confusing.

That tell us that he was holding back at effort and provoking Buu.

Would it result in you denying on "Gotenks just defeated him because he was mentally weaker"? When did Super Buu ever proved superiority over SSJ3 Gotenks? He was talking out his ass when he said that Gotenks wasn't stronger than him.

So, he is getting frustrated and not sensing ki like (you think) he was doing it with Vegetto?

Super Buu would defeat SSJ3 Gotenks if he is stronger, no way Gotenks can compete with his haxed abilities and having added the strain of the form itself.

Yes, Trunks' statement is clearly biased, he initially started by saying that Gohan was only almost as strong as Gotenks, that tarnishes any further statements from Trunks about Gohan & Gotenks.

He initially said that he was as strong as Gotenks. He is giving him respect due to that.

Only against a frustrated Evil Boo.

Gohan wasn't watching SSJ3 Gotenks vs Super Buu, Goku was. Gohan was just letting him fight Gotenks when Buu was supposed to be the guy that he was as ever and didn't noted anything different, as well as at a point in which he and nobody knew about absorption.

Can you post a scan? I can't seem to find that statement.

Spoiler

Freeza cannot sense Ki. And I don't think that comparison is valid, considering Freeza & Boo are two separate characters.

Freeza can't sense ki but could tell that he could defeat Goku with just half of his power. Ki sensing is not the only way to know how strong someone is. Both are villans.

That doesn't mean he hasn't got a good idea of the Fusion boost & it's mechanics, he learned it from the source after all.

He also learned the Genkidama the same way and his predictions both failed twice.

??? They're not weaker than Gohan, at least not the one that fought Dabura.

Vegeta wanted Trunks to be stronger than Gohan and Gohan considered that they may have surpass him if he's not careful, they hadn't reached his level still.

You can't actually prove that Boo always senses though, & because he had to be tutored by Vegetto about sensing Ki, it's safe to assume that he doesn't always sense it.


Actually, he says that right before Vegetto becomes Super Vegetto. They fought throughout the whole episode before that, so he doesn't need to sense his Ki to tell he's more powerful than Goku & Vegeta.

My reply is gonna have to be in here, because I'll definitely run out of image attachments with this one:

https://imgur.com/a/zFmIy91

Buu was talking out his ass when he said he was going to fight all-out as he also had techniques that can damage SSJ Vegetto.

Shin thought Vegetto was going to win, but Old Kaioshin contradicted him by saying that they can't be sure about that similar to how he contradicted him due to thinking that the Potara was the main reason why Vegetto was that strong.

Again, they specifically state that Gogeta > Vegetto in relation to power.

Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their ****power**** out to the max!!

According to this, Fusion has better balance, & results in a more powerful result. They say nothing about him exceeding a normal Fusion or anything like that, they say Fusion is able to draw out more power than Potara fusion, and you already know about how false that is.

Being able to draw the power to their max =/= being stronger

Never denied that Potara didn't draw out power to max, just in metamoran they have to match their powers and here is claryfying that power not being lost.

As I said, him saying "With Potara's it was Vegetto, right?" could very well just be for the fact that they are both fusions of Goku & Vegeta, so Gogeta has to come up with another name.

If they have different mannerisms, then they don't have the same mind. One chooses to call Goku "Goku", & the other chooses to call Goku "Kakarotto".

Yes, they aren't copies of themselves. Both are operated by the same minds.

Goku & Vegeta surpassed SSJ2 Cell Game Gohan by training, they didn't get any rage boost like Gohan, so the 2x SSJ1 is fine for them.

Goku and Vegeta would get that massive multiplier just due to the fact that they surpased him, assume it this way:

Gohan: 1
SSJ Goku: 1.33
SSJ2 Goku: 2.66
SSJ2 Gohan: 3

Gohan would end up stronger than Goku, which is false.

Why wouldn't it be SSJ2 Gohaku? Both Goku & Gohan can use the form, so why wouldn't Goku be considering that they fuse as SSJ2s for the best chance of success?


When Goku was told not to use use SSJ, he'd be considering a base Gokuhan (who he was just told would be stronger than Gokuhan), & seems to express doubt in that fusion's success.

I don't know what your point is with Vegetto there? That would just widen the gap between them.

Because "Super Saiyan" is the only thing he said.

Goku was thinking all the time of just SSJ and nothing more, even Vegetto while being surprised of his strength (with initially not comprehending it) just accessed to that form.

That's why I'm saying that he never sensed Vegetto.

So do you agree that Base Vegetto = Boohan? Or if not, Bootenks at least?


Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3

Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo

Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”

Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far.

Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all.

What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

They are discussing the about Potaras themselves, he says that considering a fusion between Goku, Vegeta, or Gohan, a fusion of Goku & Vegeta is what's strongest.

It's also confirmed in EML.

Base Vegetto = Gohan Buu is not legitimate in my case. Even while not trying to sense he could have figured out how strong Vegetto is, remember that Ultimate Gohan can just be sensed by him and how he has to plan things beforehand, or that SSJ3 Goku could have been sensed in Kaioshin planet with nobody actually trying to sense him?

Old Kaioshin has no way to tell that about Vegeta, though (in the manga) he has just seen his discussion with Goku and concluded that, Vegeta was gone ever since his apparition and suddenly came back.

Except for the fact that Gohaku needs Super Saiyan & Gokuhan doesn't.

That doesn't tell us about a wide 50x gap. Just that he is stronger.

Boohan vs Base Gokuhan isn't too dry cut, because Gokuhan was only confirmed > Bootenks, & obviously Boohan is a grade above that. But Gosen Zosama also states that Gokuhan is plenty enough for Bootenks, so he'd be in a grade above Bootenks also. That's why I put >=<, to show how it's not too definite.

Gohan Buu isn't plenty to defeat his Gotenks Buu self; as Gohan is just marginally stronger than Gotenks.