Two Base Theory (Super Saiyan Essence)

[FeatsofPower]

Well, this theory makes sense to an extent, but still isn't clear to me, are you saying that Goku before transforming into ssj against Freeza got 5x stronger? I don't know how that could make sense, especially when Goku was clearly out of energy after using Kaioken x20, but still... Doesn't contradict the idea that ssj multiple times the power level of a saiyan as is stated after.

No, Base Goku only gets his ki replenished. If Goku wanted to use KKx10 again, it would be the same level as before.

Except this time, Goku can tap into up to 10% of Super Saiyan's power, without even transforming.

Base Goku is shown to be healed and far more capable. Previously, Base Goku was getting trounced by 50% Freeza. Now, Base Goku is able to manage dodging 100% Freeza's blast.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

No, Base Goku only gets his ki replenished. If Goku wanted to use KKx10 again, it would be the same level as before.

Except this time, Goku can tap into up to 10% of Super Saiyan's power, without even transforming.

Base Goku is shown to be healed and far more capable. Previously, Base Goku was getting trounced by 50% Freeza. Now, Base Goku is able to manage dodging 100% Freeza's blast.

Yeah, but that was a drained and severly wounded Freeza... I've always thought that they can use ssj transformation power without actually transforming, it would make sense taking into consideration some cases, plus, the ssj power is inside them. Do you think that could be the case?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Yeah, but that was a drained and severly wounded Freeza... I've always thought that they can use ssj transformation power without actually transforming, it would make sense taking into consideration some cases, plus, the ssj power is inside them. Do you think that could be the case?

This wasn't that Freeza. This was the Freeza that Goku had just quit against.

And yes, exactly, it's not that Super Saiyan becomes a smaller boost, it's that Base can tap into Super Saiyan power.

So...

Goku gets a 50x boost from Super Saiyan.

But after that, he can tap into 10% of his Super Saiyan power, while in Base, however, when he taps into that Super Saiyan power, he cannot use Kaioken on top of it, he has to lower his Base completely to where it does not use any Super Saiyan influence.

Essentially, Base Goku absorbed some of his Super Saiyan ki into his Base power.

Makes sense right?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

This wasn't that Freeza. This was the Freeza that Goku had just quit against.

And yes, exactly, it's not that Super Saiyan becomes a smaller boost, it's that Base can tap into Super Saiyan power.

So...

Goku gets a 50x boost from Super Saiyan.

But after that, he can tap into 10% of his Super Saiyan power, while in Base, however, when he taps into that Super Saiyan power, he cannot use Kaioken on top of it, he has to lower his Base completely to where it does not use any Super Saiyan influence.

Essentially, Base Goku absorbed some of his Super Saiyan ki into his Base power.

Makes sense right?

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

Aren't you referring to this? And yeah, I think it makes sense.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

Aren't you referring to this? And yeah, I think it makes sense.

Yep

 

[Hector]

So here's how I think it worked on Namek with Goku.

Base Goku 3,000,000
KKx10 Goku 30,000,000
KKx20 Goku 60,000,000

After Goku transforms...

Base Goku 3,000,000
Base Goku (Tapping Into SSJ Energy) 15,000,000
KKx10 (Cannot use both KK and SSJ energy) 30,000,000
KKx20 (Cannot use both KK and SSJ Energy) 60,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku 150,000,000

So in light of this, Base - SSJ can be a 10x boost, while also making it a 50x boost to solve the Kaioken issue.

Flawless victory.

It's the two-base theory that actually has merit.

Some Saiyans with enough S Cells are able to tap into Super Saiyan Essence power, even without having Super Saiyan, for example, Cabba and perhaps Broly.

Ikari can be boosted off of SSJ Essence, perhaps.

So Super Saiyan is a 50x boost, but, it can lend some of it's energy to Saiyans as they fight in Base, but the power that is tapped into by Super Saiyan power, cannot be multiplied by Kaioken techniques as so on. Which allows us to have our cake and eat it too.

This is probably the only solution.

Super Saiyan IS a 50x boost. However, Base Saiyans with enough training, S Cells, or whatever logic we can come up with, can tap into a portion of this Super Saiyan power despite not transforming. As Elder Kai said, transformations is the wrong way of doing things.

I don't think there's any flaws here.

The only issue is figuring out if SSJ Broly is powerful enough, I think everything else fits in just fine.

Nice, but why stay at 10x? In Buu Saga, it is obvious that SSJ is more like 2.5x Base.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Boo Saga is more like 4x, though 2.5x would be good for Gotenks. Vegetto being 1,000x SSJ3 Goku messes up everything in Super.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Nice, but why stay at 10x? In Buu Saga, it is obvious that SSJ is more like 2.5x Base.

The author envisioned it to be around 10x and I think you will need a 10x boost to make certain chains work like...


SSJ KIds > Base Adults

I don't think a 2.5x boost will cut it.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Boo Saga is more like 4x, though 2.5x would be good for Gotenks. Vegetto being 1,000x SSJ3 Goku messes up everything in Super.

SSJ3 Goku 90
SSJ Gotenks 100
Base Gotenks 150
SSJ Gotenks 1,500
SSJ2 Gotenks 7,500
SSJ3 Gotenks 75,000

Sheesh

 

[Yoshi]

What about...

Full Power Super Saiyan - x10 Base?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJ3 Goku 90
SSJ Gotenks 100
Base Gotenks 150
SSJ Gotenks 1,500
SSJ2 Gotenks 7,500
SSJ3 Gotenks 75,000

Sheesh

I'll take a step further and show you how Super looks like with this.

Super Boo: 75,000
Ultimate Gohan: 112,500
Gohan-Boo: 187,500
Base Vegetto: 180,000

So Base Vegetto = 2,000x SSJ3 Goku. I'll take the lower end and assume that's still the boost in Super (Still over SSJ3 instead of Blue). I'll also use SEG for SSJ2 and 3 and then assume SSJB is 50x 3 (God is 5x, Blue 10x).

FT Saga SSJ3 Goku: 1
~ SSJG: 5
~ SSJB: 50

Vegetto: 2,000
~ SSJB: 8,000,000

Blue Vegetto is 160,000x FT SSJB Goku and the U7 Genki-Dama is even more. You either give UI a multiplier that big (Unlikely since Kefla closed the gap between herself and Goku with just SSJ2) or you make ToP Goku and everyone who's half relevant relative to Vegetto's lower forms, even though Goku is admitedly rusty by the start of that saga.

Saying Base Caulifla solos Halo Zamasu would be fun to troll the Zamasu fanboys though.

What about...

Full Power Super Saiyan - x10 Base?

But we also have to fit a lower multiplier in the Androids Saga if Gero's calculations are to be considered.

 

[Yoshi]

But we also have to fit a lower multiplier in the Androids Saga if Gero's calculations are to be considered.

Androids Saga Super Saiyan - x20?

 

[SIAD]

Saying Base Caulifla solos Halo Zamasu would be fun to troll the Zamasu fanboys though.

The Zamasu Lovers are the all versions of Zamasu from different timelines.

Simply put, Zamasu loves Zamasu.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Androids Saga Super Saiyan - x20?

I'm already struggling to make Gero's calculations work with a 10x boost. I think Super Saiyan should be consistent.

I'll take a step further and show you how Super looks like with this.

Super Boo: 75,000
Ultimate Gohan: 112,500
Gohan-Boo: 187,500
Base Vegetto: 180,000

So Base Vegetto = 2,000x SSJ3 Goku. I'll take the lower end and assume that's still the boost in Super (Still over SSJ3 instead of Blue). I'll also use SEG for SSJ2 and 3 and then assume SSJB is 50x 3 (God is 5x, Blue 10x).

FT Saga SSJ3 Goku: 1
~ SSJG: 5
~ SSJB: 50

Vegetto: 2,000
~ SSJB: 8,000,000

Blue Vegetto is 160,000x FT SSJB Goku and the U7 Genki-Dama is even more. You either give UI a multiplier that big (Unlikely since Kefla closed the gap between herself and Goku with just SSJ2) or you make ToP Goku and everyone who's half relevant relative to Vegetto's lower forms, even though Goku is admitedly rusty by the start of that saga.

Saying Base Caulifla solos Halo Zamasu would be fun to troll the Zamasu fanboys though.



But we also have to fit a lower multiplier in the Androids Saga if Gero's calculations are to be considered.

It's possible the boost for Vegetto was stronger in the Buu Saga than BoG.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's possible the boost for Vegetto was stronger in the Buu Saga than BoG.

Wouldn’t surprise me. SSJ Gogeta was equal to SSJ Broly, whose base was somewhat behind SSJB Goku. If Base Gogeta isn’t that strong then Vegetto might not be either.

 

[Hector]

The author envisioned it to be around 10x and I think you will need a 10x boost to make certain chains work like...


SSJ KIds > Base Adults

I don't think a 2.5x boost will cut it.

SSJ Goten was like 90% SSJ Gohan. Even with a 2.5x boost, SSJ Kids remain higher than Base Adults.

 

[Yoshi]

SSJ Goten was like 90% SSJ Gohan. Even with a 2.5x boost, SSJ Kids remain higher than Base Adults.

So you believe that Base Kids > Piccolo?

 

[Hector]

So you believe that Base Kids > Piccolo?

Depends on the SSJ boost and Piccolo's gains since Cell Games.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Depends on the SSJ boost and Piccolo's gains since Cell Games.

It doesn't work like that, you must accept the power chain first, then the power levels.

If you feel Piccolo > Base Kids, your 2.5x multiplier is dead in the water.

 

[Hector]

It doesn't work like that, you must accept the power chain first, then the power levels.

If you feel Piccolo > Base Kids, your 2.5x multiplier is dead in the water.

Why?