U6 Tourney vs ToP

[Fantastische Hure]

As a Vegeta fan, I did like seeing him go 3-1 in the tournament. He doesn't get many kills so they padded his stats here. And the win against Frost was kind of a make up for getting robbed and Freeza-sama.

To be fair defeating a Freeza look-alike is not a good consolation price, considering it was Freeza who used to boss him around and the one that ruled through an iron-fist, not Frost.

 

[Southern Gothic]

As a Vegeta fan, I did like seeing him go 3-1 in the tournament. He doesn't get many kills so they padded his stats here. And the win against Frost was kind of a make up for getting robbed and Freeza-sama.

To be fair defeating a Freeza look-alike is not a good consolation price, considering it was Freeza who used to boss him around and the one that ruled through an iron-fist, not Frost.

I know

 

[Fantastische Hure]

As a Vegeta fan, I did like seeing him go 3-1 in the tournament. He doesn't get many kills so they padded his stats here. And the win against Frost was kind of a make up for getting robbed and Freeza-sama.

To be fair defeating a Freeza look-alike is not a good consolation price, considering it was Freeza who used to boss him around and the one that ruled through an iron-fist, not Frost.

I know

And the one who made him cry and killed him in the most torturous way possible (all whilst eating a crab).

 

[Southern Gothic]

To be fair defeating a Freeza look-alike is not a good consolation price, considering it was Freeza who used to boss him around and the one that ruled through an iron-fist, not Frost.

I know

And the one who made him cry and killed him in the most torturous way possible (all whilst eating a crab).

But if you are a superficial enough person, then beating up a look alike can sometimes feel pretty good.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I don't watch Super just for the action. I also watch it to see characters I love have great interactions and have interesting development (Hit has honestly changed a lot since the U6 tournament. He's really come alive and despite still being serious he still cracks a smile every once in a while and now uses quips when talking to his enemy).

Little different than most other similar stoic archetypes. He's basically just Kenshiro with timestop abilities. Also, whilst character writing can sometimes excuse a poor plot, one or several fairly well handled characters don't balance out terrible writing decisions and ideas with little potential.

Dragon Ball Super to me takes some of the best aspects of DB and DBZ as well as some of the bad aspects for an interesting hodgepodge that can really surprise.

Well, I can at least agree it takes the bad aspects of them....and amplifies them tenfold.

The aspects it takes from DB are the interesting tactics and special techniques (since DBZ didn't really have much of that other than Buu and Gotenks) and it takes a good bit of the intensity from Z and the twists and turns.

"Interesting" (and I phrase this loosely for what's usually resolved by characters finding a counter for one trick ponies) tactics still don't make the series great when the methods used for surpassing them boil down to a power up.

I love seeing characters outsmarting eachother and finding counters to new abilities. DBZ was almost entirely lacking in this aspect.

Then watch Hunter X Hunter or JoJo. You can have this without anywhere near as many asspulls or plot holes.

You can't say your taste is superior when you just have different writing preferences and value different things more than others.

Clear relativism. There's a clear difference between comparing titles in which the pros heavily outweigh the cons and comparing it with titles with similar quality in the writing depth and consistency of plot, characters and originality, and comparing such to series wherein the plot isn't coherent or characters make poor decisions that go far beyond necessary flaws and just hinder their writing. There is subjective superiority in titles that can be debated, but at the same time, it's obvious that that the less faults one finds in a series, the better they find it to be as a whole. For instance, you'd have a hard, nay, impossible time trying to convince anyone that something such as say, SAO or Naruto are superior in any category of what makes a good series compared to the likes of Berserk or Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
I can accept people liking a very flawed series if they're willing to admit it as being dumb fun. Practically remaining ignorant of obvious flaws, however, is something else entirely.

 

[Southern Gothic]

I can accept people liking a very flawed series if they're willing to admit it as being dumb fun. Practically remaining ignorant of obvious flaws, however, is something else entirely.

I agree. No shame in this. I love the Bio Broli movie even though I recognize it as total rubbish.

 

[xenos5]

Little different than most other similar stoic archetypes. He's basically just Kenshiro with timestop abilities. Also, whilst character writing can sometimes excuse a poor plot, one or several fairly well handled characters don't balance out terrible writing decisions and ideas with little potential.

I disagree. Hit actually shows different emotions (enjoying his fight with Goku and clearly being annoyed with Dyspo) and reacts to different characters in different ways. He also analyzes his opponent and can even guess what they're thinking (when he told Goku he knew that he was thinking of trying to endure a few blows and get used to the .2 second evolved timeskip).

Hit, you can imagine having a battle of words with Frieza with Frieza trying to lie but Hit catches him in it and quips back.

A generic stoic archetype could never talk as much as Hit has or show the wit Hit has shown. He doesn't talk constantly but he manages to convey a lot with just a few words.

"Interesting" (and I phrase this loosely for what's usually resolved by characters finding a counter for one trick ponies) tactics still don't make the series great when the methods used for surpassing them boil down to a power up.

Despite Goku's power Hit still competes and manages to force a tie with Goku due to his techniques and strategy. That didn't really happen at all in Z.

Hit is definitely the farthest thing from a one trick pony in the series. Multiple variations of Timeskip, Shockwave technique, Pseudo Intangibility/dimensional crossing, Ki signature duplicates, Rifts that can send attacks in entirely different trajectories, Improvement.

He uses so many unique techniques and can use different ones in combination with eachother.

Clear relativism. There's a clear difference between comparing titles in which the pros heavily outweigh the cons and comparing it with titles with similar quality in the writing depth and consistency of plot, characters and originality, and comparing such to series wherein the plot isn't coherent or characters make poor decisions that go far beyond necessary flaws and just hinder their writing. There is subjective superiority in titles that can be debated, but at the same time, it's obvious that that the less faults one finds in a series, the better they find it to be as a whole. For instance, you'd have a hard, nay, impossible time trying to convince anyone that something such as say, SAO or Naruto are superior in any category of what makes a good series compared to the likes of Berserk or Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
I can accept people liking a very flawed series if they're willing to admit it as being dumb fun. Practically remaining ignorant of obvious flaws, however, is something else entirely.

I do not think DBS is like the transformers movies that are completely devoid of any thought, strategy, or character development. It's also above trash like SAO.

You can enjoy DBS for MORE than just the action. The characters, the strategies, and some of the surprising twists (Goku leaving the ring at the end of the U6 tournament, and Giygas Zamasu at the end of the FT arc)

I don't feel that I have to turn my brain off to enjoy it.

I'm enjoying Super despite it's flaws but that doesn't mean I have to say it's just "dumb fun". There are aspects that people enjoy analyzing and make theories on for Super when in something that has no substance you don't have anything TO analyze.

 

[Void]

I prefer the Tournament of Power, but I don't hate the U6&7 Tournament. There are definitely some cool moments in the ToP which are mostly mentioned above.

I had mixed feelings on 109 and 110 personally. Goku attempting to fight Jiren in Base and other lesser forms after Jiren had powered up to the point of shocking everyone was cringe worthy, as was Krillin's explanation for why he was doing it. I enjoyed the flow and animation of Blue and KKx20 Blue Goku fighting Jiren, and I must admit I kind of like seeing Goku get thrashed at this point. The Spirit Bomb looked nice and at least made Jiren put some effort in. Goku absorbing it was kind of weird, but they tried to offset it by making it temporary and it didn't sit well with me. Silver Goku matched Jiren and the fight was well animated for the most part. I like when Jiren finished Goku off.

What I didn't like is that Goku had essentially accomplished nothing in the end. The power boost was temporary, apparently Goku doesn't even know how he did it, and Jiren seemingly didn't even break a sweat. Now Goku is trashed and is apparently going to regain his stamina by fighting more...? Hit is going to improve dozens of times over in power to fight against Jiren in the next episode because Grey Dude is so outrageously powerful. I think most of these problems stem from overpowering Jiren, but whatever. I'm hoping Hit's fight with Jiren is entertaining regardless, even though we now know from new Ep. 112 spoilers that Hit loses. What's going to happen to Jiren after that? Is Goku getting a rematch with his newfound stamina? There's certainly enough time since we now know only 23 minutes have passed.

I guess I'm still watching each episode in the end either way.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

My problem with U6 tournament is that it has a less tension compare to the other series. It's basically just another tournament where Goku and the others have to prove something similar to the 21st Budokai. ToP on the other hand has a huge stake and yeah I know about the EoZ stuff but what about the other universe? And with Freeza killing it since his return makes this tournament the best imo.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I disagree. Hit actually shows different emotions (enjoying his fight with Goku and clearly being annoyed with Dyspo) and reacts to different characters in different ways. He also analyzes his opponent and can even guess what they're thinking (when he told Goku he knew that he was thinking of trying to endure a few blows and get used to the .2 second evolved timeskip).

Hit, you can imagine having a battle of words with Frieza with Frieza trying to lie but Hit catches him in it and quips back.

A generic stoic archetype could never talk as much as Hit has or show the wit Hit has shown. He doesn't talk constantly but he manages to convey a lot with just a few words.

Which as I said, is no different from similar serious, stoic characters such as Kenshiro or Jotaro. If anything, he's far less than those characters, as we see how they handle a variety of situations, whereas we don't see Hit have any variety in Hit's situations due to him being shown to do nothing but fighting/killing. Hit only seems like an interesting character within the confines of Super. As a whole, he's still just a two-dimensional character with some superficial development.

Despite Goku's power Hit still competes and manages to force a tie with Goku due to his techniques and strategy. That didn't really happen at all in Z.

Which he did via an ability that just allows him to get stronger. Far from clever strategies.

Hit is definitely the farthest thing from a one trick pony in the series. Multiple variations of Timeskip, Shockwave technique, Pseudo Intangibility/dimensional crossing, Ki signature duplicates, Rifts that can send attacks in entirely different trajectories, Improvement.

If anything, this just hinders his character and what "strategy" there is to the fight. Having and/or getting around a powerful superpower is fine, but if the character's only method of countering their broken ability being countered is to reveal another broken ability, they become little more than an uninteresting Gary Stu. There's no tactical merit when things are stacked heavily in their favour via hax.

I do not think DBS is like the transformers movies that are completely devoid of any thought, strategy, or character development. It's also above trash like SAO.

Here is where you not only missed my point, but also proved my own. That section was as a counter to your relativistic excuse of "different writing preferences" and giving an example of why such thinking is flawed. Not only that, but whilst I agree Super isn't as bad as SAO (beyond the shameless cashgrab factor), you declaring that it is without doubt blatantly contradicts such relativism and the whole part about taste being subjective. The double standards are truly apparent. You can either accept that taste isn't subjective (which at this point, is the whole reason for you referring to the recent Super episode as "amazing" after I've proven otherwise), or you can view your initial post as not being important, in which case the entire cause for debate falls apart. Either way, this invalidates one important part of your argument.

You can enjoy DBS for MORE than just the action. The characters

Whilst a select few characters do develop slightly (Vegeta, Kuririn, Gohan), none of it is to the extent or depth to say the pros of Super outweigh the cons, since it still doesn't do much beyond adding some small additions to ones that were fully developed by the end of the manga anyway.

the strategies

Which are always incredibly basic.

and some of the surprising twists (Goku leaving the ring at the end of the U6 tournament, and Giygas Zamasu at the end of the FT arc)

There are no surprises. We know that all of the characters from Z (apart from perhaps Freeza) will never die permanently due to the end of the manga and know Goku and Vegeta will rival Beerus eventually through something as lazy as a prophecy (something that shouldn't even exist in a series where alternate timelines are a thing).

I don't feel that I have to turn my brain off to enjoy it.

Maybe you need to watch something more mentally stimulating then.

I'm enjoying Super despite it's flaws but that doesn't mean I have to say it's just "dumb fun". There are aspects that people enjoy analyzing and make theories on for Super when in something that has no substance you don't have anything TO analyze.

Analysis/theory crafting doesn't make a series quality better when it comes to thing like future plot events or powerscaling. If anything, it makes them worse due to showing a lack of clarity and leaving things open ended without much catharsis, or in the case of theory crafting, being purely in the mind of the beholder and not entirely what we witness, meaning they can make a series' intrigue seem far more apparent than it actually is. That's not to say theory crafting or analysis is bad, but unless it has to do with aspects such as comparison or analysing the depth of characters, it doesn't make a series better. It also doesn't mean a series has substance, only that what superficial substance it has isn't fully explored. For example, Naruto and Bleach are bottom tier Shonen, yet people still find much to discuss about them, that doesn't make them good, it just means much was left open ended to discuss. To bring things closer to home, what's detestably the worst arc of the Dragon Ball manga, the Boo Arc, is probably the most commonly debated part on most DB forums. It isn't because it's the best, it's because it's the most contradictive and had the least theme/concept exploration.

I probably best state that I don't feel Super is the absolute worst anime in creation, but with all presented, you'd be grasping at straws to say that the pros outweigh the cons enough for any aspect to be seen as "amazing" within a wider critical scope. You may feel free to continue debating such, but after either your initial post or a good portion of your last argument must be debunked, I don't believe there'd be much reason to continue this discussion.

 

[xenos5]

Which as I said, is no different from similar serious, stoic characters such as Kenshiro or Jotaro. If anything, he's far less than those characters, as we see how they handle a variety of situations, whereas we don't see Hit have any variety in Hit's situations due to him being shown to do nothing but fighting/killing. Hit only seems like an interesting character within the confines of Super. As a whole, he's still just a two-dimensional character with some superficial development.

I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye if that's what you think.

Your argument basically amounts to "they're better since they get more screentime". Not being placed in a variety of different situations does not make a character worse.

Hit has more than one side to him. He is an assassin with honor. And if he's challenged the martial artist in him can come out and he can enjoy fighting. Arrogant/pompous characters like Dyspo can seriously annoy him. And even outside of his assassination job he has no qualms with killing as shown by him saying he'd kill Frost if he didn't join the tournament of power.

Which he did via an ability that just allows him to get stronger. Far from clever strategies.

Hit completely dominated Goku with his techniques during the rematch with only the full power SSB kamehameha that drained Goku out of blue at the end being able to do much of anything.

Goku was slowly adapting and finding counters but since Hit showed he could fire off his shockwave attack even while remaining in his pocket dimension it was much harder to counter that through conventional means like amping energy sensing with your eyes closed to be able to counter the shockwaves, or aiming to counter attack when Hit turns tangible to go for a physical attack.

If anything, this just hinders his character and what "strategy" there is to the fight. Having and/or getting around a powerful superpower is fine, but if the character's only method of countering their broken ability being countered is to reveal another broken ability, they become little more than an uninteresting Gary Stu. There's no tactical merit when things are stacked heavily in their favour via hax.

Hit doesn't need to constantly reveal new abilities. He leverages his existing abilities by using clever tactics and combinations of them. Against Dyspo he switched between using timeskip and the pseudo intangibility to throw him off.

And the killing techniques weren't even new abilities for Hit. They were abilities that were foreshadowed/hinted at during the U6 arc but Hit was restricted from using in that setting.

 

[SSJ2]

I prefer the Tournament of Power, but I don't hate the U6&7 Tournament. There are definitely some cool moments in the ToP which are mostly mentioned above.

I had mixed feelings on 109 and 110 personally. Goku attempting to fight Jiren in Base and other lesser forms after Jiren had powered up to the point of shocking everyone was cringe worthy, as was Krillin's explanation for why he was doing it. I enjoyed the flow and animation of Blue and KKx20 Blue Goku fighting Jiren, and I must admit I kind of like seeing Goku get thrashed at this point. The Spirit Bomb looked nice and at least made Jiren put some effort in. Goku absorbing it was kind of weird, but they tried to offset it by making it temporary and it didn't sit well with me. Silver Goku matched Jiren and the fight was well animated for the most part. I like when Jiren finished Goku off.

What I didn't like is that Goku had essentially accomplished nothing in the end. The power boost was temporary, apparently Goku doesn't even know how he did it, and Jiren seemingly didn't even break a sweat. Now Goku is trashed and is apparently going to regain his stamina by fighting more...? Hit is going to improve dozens of times over in power to fight against Jiren in the next episode because Grey Dude is so outrageously powerful. I think most of these problems stem from overpowering Jiren, but whatever. I'm hoping Hit's fight with Jiren is entertaining regardless, even though we now know from new Ep. 112 spoilers that Hit loses. What's going to happen to Jiren after that? Is Goku getting a rematch with his newfound stamina? There's certainly enough time since we now know only 23 minutes have passed.

I guess I'm still watching each episode in the end either way.

Silver Goku