Vegeta Saga

[FeatsofPower]

Yajirobe 800
Chaozu 1,000
Saibamen 1,200
Gohan 1,250
Yamcha 1,350
Krillen 1,500
Tien 1,600

Piccolo 2,000
Enraged Gohan 2,240
Masenko 2,800
Kikoho 3,200

Nappa 4,000
Goku Initial 5,000

Nappa FP 8,000
Goku FP 8,000

KKx2 Goku 16,000
Vegeta Initial 16,500

Vegeta FP 18,000

KKx3 Goku 24,000

Galick Gun 24,000
KKx3 KHH 24,000

KKx4 Goku 32,000
KKx4 KHH 32,000

Great Ape Vegeta 180,000

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Great time to make this thread, this saga is the last piece for my list. Boo Saga is already done.

I think I’d prefer Enraged Gohan at 2500, but it doesn’t really matter I guess.

Oozaru Vegeta is way below 180,000. This ain’t 2009 anymore!

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think I’d prefer Enraged Gohan at 2500, but it doesn’t really matter I guess.

It can be wherever, but you gotta explain to me why the Masenko amp is so weak and uncompetitive with Kamehameha and so on.

Oozaru Vegeta is way below 180,000. This ain’t 2009 anymore!

It's his maximum power, but where do you have him as his actual power?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It can be wherever, but you gotta explain to me why the Masenko amp is so weak and uncompetitive with Kamehameha and so on.

Because Gohan is a noob and feats wise the Masenko is no more impressive than Gohan kicking Nappa's face in. This is the power Piccolo is expecting to save the day, mind you.

I think this saga really contradicts the Raditz Saga's buffed amps. Kuririn's Kamehameha should be giving Nappa sweat, let alone Piccolo's Makkankosappo. Granted they did blast him and he just dodged instead of tanking, but that's still pretty lame.

It's his maximum power, but where do you have him as his actual power?

Post Oozaru he's throwing hands with Enraged Gohan. What about:

Goku (Post beam struggle): 4,000

Vegeta (Post beam struggle): 9,000
~ Post Ki Ball: 6,000
~ Oozaru: 60,000
~ Post Oozaru: 4,000

Gohan (Enraged): 3,500

Or should Enraged Gohan still be in the 2k range?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Because Gohan is a noob

A noob who learned the Masenko. Piccolo's Masenko and Gohan's Masenko should be equal. When Tien and Yamcha learned the Kamehameha, they had the official one.

the Masenko is no more impressive than Gohan kicking Nappa's face in.

The Masenko should be far beyond Gohan's enraged kick.

This is the power Piccolo is expecting to save the day, mind you.

A Masenko from Enraged Gohan is what Piccolo expecting to win the day.

I think this saga really contradicts the Raditz Saga's buffed amps. Kuririn's Kamehameha should be giving Nappa sweat, let alone Piccolo's Makkankosappo. Granted they did blast him and he just dodged instead of tanking, but that's still pretty lame.

They had no time to charge, they shouldn't be anywhere near full power, they were haphazardly put together. That isn't a full blown SBC or Kamehameha.

Or should Enraged Gohan still be in the 2k range?

Why would Gohan be any stronger? Did he get stronger from a zenkai after he got the sensu?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

A noob who learned the Masenko. Piccolo's Masenko and Gohan's Masenko should be equal. When Tien and Yamcha learned the Kamehameha, they had the official one.

But Gohan is still learning the ropes here. He couldn't even track people fighting. When Kuririn first learned the Kamehameha it was a piss weak one.

What is the Masenko amp? I don't remember Picolo eveng using it. Is it the same technique as the Bakurikimaha?

They had no time to charge, they shouldn't be anywhere near full power, they were haphazardly put together. That isn't a full blown SBC or Kamehameha.

Only the SBC takes time to charge though, and Piccolo's power instantly jumped to 1,020 when he started it. Uncharged SBC > Kamehameha.

Why would Gohan be any stronger? Did he get stronger from a zenkai after he got the sensu?

He's giving Vegeta a run for his money here. Sure, Vegeta is weakened, but remember: Goku said he couldn't do anything even if he pulled off a Kaio-Ken x5. Vegeta >>> 4k. Also he takes a Genki-Dama and is still well way 1000.

 

[FeatsofPower]

But Gohan is still learning the ropes here. He couldn't even track people fighting.

Nonetheless, when he fires the attack, he gives it it's full name, Masenko. The reader should assume this is a full-powered Masenko.

When Kuririn first learned the Kamehameha it was a piss weak one.

Which we have ample evidence for knowing that. Where is the evidence that Masenko is not a full powered one? It's like you are arguing for Yamcha's Kamehameha not to be full powered. You need evidence to make such assertions. Here, you have none.

What is the Masenko amp? I don't remember Picolo eveng using it. Is it the same technique as the Bakurikimaha?

I'd imagine that it's as strong as a Kamehameha, or at least it's Piccolo's strongest attack. Remember, Piccolo's entire plan to kill the Saiyans relies on Gohan finishing them with a ki blast. So logically, Piccolo taught Gohan his most powerful ki attack, the Masenko. SBC is a great attack, but it requires a ton of charge-up. Masenko is probably the strongest attack with the most minimal charge-up time.

Only the SBC takes time to charge though, and Piccolo's power instantly jumped to 1,020 when he started it. Uncharged SBC > Kamehameha.

I'd have to look into it. That would make Masenko beyond that though.

Goku said he couldn't do anything even if he pulled off a Kaio-Ken x5.

How strong is Goku here? He's quite worn out himself.

He's giving Vegeta a run for his money here.

Yeah, I'm getting to this part now in the anime. Bro, the anime is so good at this point. Super enjoyable.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'd have to look into it. That would make Masenko beyond that though.

That's the problem, Masenko can't be a 2x amp or anything because there's obviously not enough space. This is right after the Raditz fight and they're already throwing the bigger multipliers in the trash.

How strong is Goku here? He's quite worn out himself.

Kaio said Goku had no strength left. Though there's always been this argument that Goku is talking about a hypothetical FP KKx5 because he can barely use x2 in his current fatigued.

Either way, Oozaru Vegeta is at least >>> 32k since it grabbed Kuririn and Gohan's attentions while the beam struggle didn't.

Yeah, I'm getting to this part now in the anime. Bro, the anime is so good at this point. Super enjoyable.

Probably my favorite saga. It's going to be a good thing for you to scale it with a fresh memory.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku (Fatigued): 4,000

Vegeta (Fatigued): 9,000
~ Post Ki Ball: 4,500 (Goku’s reaction to it sounds like Vegeta lost quite a lot of power)
~ Oozaru: 45,000

Genki-Dama: 50,000

Gohan: 1,350 (tiny zenkai)
Kuririn: 1,500
Yajirobe: 750

Vegeta (Post Oozaru): 3,000
Gohan (Enraged): 2,700

Kuririn (Injured): 500
~ Genki-Dama: 20,000 (Goku said it lost about half power)

Vegeta (Half dead): 1,800

Gohan (Injured): 1,000
~ Oozaru: 10,000 (Vegeta said he could take 2-3 of them, but no more)

 

[FeatsofPower]

That's the problem, Masenko can't be a 2x amp or anything because there's obviously not enough space. This is right after the Raditz fight and they're already throwing the bigger multipliers in the trash.

BoZ is an inconsistent mess. We have to throw away all levels. Or you can’t have consistency.

Galick Gun being 1.33x seems to be the best bit of logic to me so far. We have to try it out and see if it can work.

It’s possible Final Crash isn’t the maximum amp Vegeta is capable of, but I think the best logic without allowing numbers to get involved should be the idea that all of Vegeta’s implied max blasts are the same.

Final Crash, Final Burst Cannon, Galick Gun and the one he used against 2nd Form Freeza should all be the same I’d think. Would you agree? If we are looking for the most consistent list ever that is.

What do you think of this?

Masenko = Kamehameha

Super Kamehameha = Galick Gun?

Probably my favorite saga. It's going to be a good thing for you to scale it with a fresh memory.

Indeed. It’s probably fourth for me.

1. Cell
2. Freeza
3. Buu

For me and then I don’t know if I like Vegeta Saga better or 23rd Budokai better. Probably leaning towards Vegeta Saga but that 23rd Budokai is so good too.

Goku (Fatigued): 4,000

Vegeta (Fatigued): 9,000
~ Post Ki Ball: 4,500 (Goku’s reaction to it sounds like Vegeta lost quite a lot of power)
~ Oozaru: 45,000

Genki-Dama: 50,000

Gohan: 1,350 (tiny zenkai)
Kuririn: 1,500
Yajirobe: 750

Vegeta (Post Oozaru): 3,000
Gohan (Enraged): 2,700

Kuririn (Injured): 500
~ Genki-Dama: 20,000 (Goku said it lost about half power)

Vegeta (Half dead): 1,800

Gohan (Injured): 1,000
~ Oozaru: 10,000 (Vegeta said he could take 2-3 of them, but no more)

Hmm, the Vegeta Saga is indeed far more complex than I initially thought. Once we are getting into fatigued levels, we are in trouble. I’m going to have to take some time out for this.

We should do a separate thread then just for the entire fatigued area.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

BoZ is an inconsistent mess. We have to throw away all levels. Or you can’t have consistency.

Galick Gun being 1.33x seems to be the best bit of logic to me so far. We have to try it out and see if it can work.

It’s possible Final Crash isn’t the maximum amp Vegeta is capable of, but I think the best logic without allowing numbers to get involved should be the idea that all of Vegeta’s implied max blasts are the same.

Final Crash, Final Burst Cannon, Galick Gun and the one he used against 2nd Form Freeza should all be the same I’d think. Would you agree? If we are looking for the most consistent list ever that is.

What do you think of this?

Masenko = Kamehameha

Super Kamehameha = Galick Gun?

Dunno about throwing away all levels. It just is what is is. Those numbers are presented as cold, hard facts. This is how strong Toriyama views his characters to be on the system he created.

I agree that all those blasts are the same, but Final Crash should be Vegeta's best. I think it's stated Vegeta put his all into that first combo, he wanted to finish the fight ASAP after that everybody knew Vegeta wasn't winning.

Masenko = Makousen = Bakurikimaha I'd say. The only difference between these techniques is the name and the aesthetics. Are Piccolo Daimao's blasts stronger than the Kamehameha?

Garlic Gun = Super KHH is definitely implied. They're counterparts

Probably leaning towards Vegeta Saga but that 23rd Budokai is so good too.

23TB might be my favorite on the classic because it's right in between DB and DBZ. Only problem is that Goku and Piccolo's infinite stamina is plain ridiculous. Goku is literally crippled and still beats everyone.

Hmm, the Vegeta Saga is indeed far more complex than I initially thought. Once we are getting into fatigued levels, we are in trouble. I’m going to have to take some time out for this.

We should do a separate thread then just for the entire fatigued area.

It's like, the best part of the Vegeta Saga. Seeing Goku and Vegeta literally beat up each other till they can't stand up anymore. It's probably the only saga where fatigued levels are not only consistent but also fully shown.

I think keeping it in this thread is fine because there isn't much to discuss. Everybody knows humans are around 1500, and we're all grown ups here so nobody is gonna say Nappa = 4000. This section is mostly enraged Gohan and blast multipliers.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Dunno about throwing away all levels. It just is what is is. Those numbers are presented as cold, hard facts. This is how strong Toriyama views his characters to be on the system he created.

They contradict the narrative though. You have to choose one, either the numbers or the narrative. Either option is wrong because it contradicts it.

The humans are either all above Kami numerically or below him narratively. There is no right option here.

Kamehameha can’t be a 2.22x boost when Galick Gun is only 1.33x

 

[Goku9001]

It can be wherever, but you gotta explain to me why the Masenko amp is so weak and uncompetitive with Kamehameha and so on.


It's his maximum power, but where do you have him as his actual power?

Because Gohan is already harnessing power beyond his own natural limits which would make it harder to control.

Kikoho is also definitively weaker than Gohan's Masenko. Vegeta isn't concerned about Nappa taking the attack and it doesn't faze Nappa at all. Gohan's Masenko, on the other hand, alarmed Vegeta and it still stung Nappa's arm even though the attack never detonated.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Because Gohan is already harnessing power beyond his own natural limits which would make it harder to control.

Nah, Gohan can deliver the Masenko just fine and Gohan has no limits. His Masenko is just as powerful as Piccolo's. Nothing implies anything otherwise.

Kikoho is also definitively weaker than Gohan's Masenko. Vegeta isn't concerned about Nappa taking the attack and it doesn't faze Nappa at all. Gohan's Masenko, on the other hand, alarmed Vegeta and it still stung Nappa's arm even though the attack never detonated.

I think I'm finally on board with this, but how strong do you have Kikoho and Nappa then?

For Nappa to take such little damage, he needs to be quite strong, no?

 

[Goku9001]

Nah, Gohan can deliver the Masenko just fine and Gohan has no limits. His Masenko is just as powerful as Piccolo's. Nothing implies anything otherwise.


I think I'm finally on board with this, but how strong do you have Kikoho and Nappa then?

For Nappa to take such little damage, he needs to be quite strong, no?

No. It definitely is beyond his natural limits. He can't access it without tapping into all of his latent power beyond normal means.

Nappa would still be at 4k but Kikoho could be at 2.4k.

 

[SIAD]

Did Gohan's Masenko in the Saiyan Arc have a lower multiplier compared to later Arcs?

@FeatsofPower You have the Masenko multiplier at 1.25x in the Saiyan Arc. In later Arcs, Gohan's Masenko is greater than 1.25x?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo: 2,000

Kikoho: 2,400 (No need to worry about multiplier bc Tien was beaten up. I like 3x bc triangle)

Enraged Gohan: 2,250 or 2,500
~ Masenko: 2,800

I know it’s a small difference, but 2.25k looks so feeble. Gohan kicked Nappa in the face. Sure this was sort of unexpected, but not totally off guard. Are we ready hyping a technique Piccolo never uses and that Gohan used maybe once or twice after?

Gohan’s amp looks pretty tiny overall. His next relevant blast is against 3rd form Freeza and it again looks barely better than his actual attacks. Aren’t blasts supposed to be massive game changers?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo: 2,000

Kikoho: 2,400 (No need to worry about multiplier bc Tien was beaten up. I like 3x bc triangle)

Enraged Gohan: 2,250 or 2,500
~ Masenko: 2,800

I know it’s a small difference, but 2.25k looks so feeble. Gohan kicked Nappa in the face. Sure this was sort of unexpected, but not totally off guard. Are we ready hyping a technique Piccolo never uses and that Gohan used maybe once or twice after?

Gohan’s amp looks pretty tiny overall. His next relevant blast is against 3rd form Freeza and it again looks barely better than his actual attacks. Aren’t blasts supposed to be massive game changers?

I know, I was just thinking this. Also, it seems there might be two levels of rage for Gohan. His initial one, and then he seems fully enraged right before the blast.

It seems like his amp is probably minimal after looking at this. Probably on par with maybe Nappa's blast or something? You are right, there's no way this will work.

I think Gohan needs to be 2,500 most likely to Piccolo's 2,000.

Did Gohan's Masenko in the Saiyan Arc have a lower multiplier compared to later Arcs?

@FeatsofPower You have the Masenko multiplier at 1.25x in the Saiyan Arc. In later Arcs, Gohan's Masenko is greater than 1.25x?

I probably have to change my mind on this based on what @GreatSaiyaman123 has brought up.

There's just not enough room for it. I gotta play around with the amp size, but it's probably minimal I'd say. Maybe 1.1-1.125 or so?

 

[SIAD]

Gohan destroys Garlick Jr.'s Evil Planet with a Masenko?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gohan destroys Garlick Jr.'s Evil Planet with a Masenko?

Filler, but Gohan was enraged so it could be small too.