Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP) vs Kefla Base?

Goku9001

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At what point is it shown that Golden Frieza (Heavily Suppressed) = Goku Base > Frieza True Form?

I never really knew about that.

I'm thinking that maybe throughout ToP Frieza increased his power in all his forms (except Golden Form).
Rewatch their fight prior to the Tournament of Power. Frieza explicitly needs his Golden form to match Base Goku's speed despite being capable of matching Dyspo's speed later on. Frieza would have needed to have gotten stronger for that to happen. My position is simply that if Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta had risen in strength so tremendously that they exceeded KKx20 Blue Goku during his first fight with Jiren, then logically Gohan, 17, and Frieza would have needed to be a lot stronger as well.

Otherwise, they're not Blue tier. They might not even be God tier.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Where do Frieza and 17 stand relative to Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta who explicitly match up against a Powered Up Jiren, one that is far stronger than UI Omen Goku and SSJ2 Kefla? You are still dodging around on the whole Frieza ~ Dyspo thing as well.

Much weaker since they're only comparable to Goku and Vegeta by the start of the ToP. Specially Freeza since Toppo beat him to a pulp.

Freeza didn't need his golden form for anything, he wanted to show off against assassins who are weaker than everyone in the U9 team. Even before Freeza had done anything close to pushing his limits Dyspo was already avoiding him. Unless you're gonna tell me he went beyond his limits to fight Gohan in a make believe fight and to troll Frost.
 

Goku9001

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Much weaker since they're only comparable to Goku and Vegeta by the start of the ToP. Specially Freeza since Toppo beat him to a pulp.

Freeza didn't need his golden form for anything, he wanted to show off against assassins who are weaker than everyone in the U9 team. Even before Freeza had done anything close to pushing his limits Dyspo was already avoiding him. Unless you're gonna tell me he went beyond his limits to fight Gohan in a make believe fight and to troll Frost.
Toppo didn't beat Frieza to a pulp outside of his GoD form. The writers have stated that Golden Frieza was on par with Blue Goku, which means that Frieza had to have gotten stronger throughout the tournament to make that possible. It also helps explain why Android 17 could keep up with Blue Goku during their battle with Jiren. Android 17 explicitly intercepts Jiren's attack and pushes SSJBE Vegeta aside to take the attack directly. He was coordinating attacks against Jiren whereas prior, he could barely do anything to Toppo with Gohan's help. That's pretty substantial.

You also have yet to prove that 17 ever pushed himself to his limits to obtain the strength that he did. If it was possible for him to progress with minimal training relative to other Blue tier fighters, what's stopping two prodigies from getting stronger just by battling stronger opponents? Frieza didn't do jack shit but that doesn't justify his ability to match a Blue tier speedster in just his Final Form and be able to defend against Dyspo's Supercharged Speed for awhile. Zeno literally states that he couldn't track Final Form Frieza. Aside from that, who said they needed to push themselves beyond their limits to get stronger? That's something you pulled out of your ass. Evidence clearly doesn't support that.

Blue Goku/Blue Vegeta ~ Jiren (122) > UI Omen Goku/SSJ2 Kefla > Base Kefla > Toppo

Where do 17 and Golden Frieza fall in the above chain? It's certainly not God tier that's for sure.

I don't know why you are referencing this. I'm talking about when Frieza battles Goku. Frieza begins in Golden form and Goku begins in Base. Both are dancing around each other searching for an opportunity to land an attack but they can't. That suggests that they were equal which means that Frieza's Final Form at the time was inherently weaker.
 

Animelover5487

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When did Toppo tank 17? I remember him jumping away and saying 17’s infinite stamina was dangerous and he’d need to finish it in one shot.
He was in the middle of attacking Gohan and 17 fired a ki blast at him that didn't do anything, then Gohan blasted him with a KHH that also didn't do anything.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Toppo didn't beat Frieza to a pulp outside of his GoD form. The writers have stated that Golden Frieza was on par with Blue Goku, which means that Frieza had to have gotten stronger throughout the tournament to make that possible. It also helps explain why Android 17 could keep up with Blue Goku during their battle with Jiren. Android 17 explicitly intercepts Jiren's attack and pushes SSJBE Vegeta aside to take the attack directly. He was coordinating attacks against Jiren whereas prior, he could barely do anything to Toppo with Gohan's help. That's pretty substantial.

You also have yet to prove that 17 ever pushed himself to his limits to obtain the strength that he did. If it was possible for him to progress with minimal training relative to other Blue tier fighters, what's stopping two prodigies from getting stronger just by battling stronger opponents? Frieza didn't do jack shit but that doesn't justify his ability to match a Blue tier speedster in just his Final Form and be able to defend against Dyspo's Supercharged Speed for awhile. Zeno literally states that he couldn't track Final Form Frieza.

He did get beaten to a pulp nonetheless and should be far from peak condition when he attacks Jiren, that’s the point.

17 didn’t actually “take the attack directly”, he blocked it. Doesn’t look any different from Kami catching Piccolo’s punch vs Goku, and if anything 17 was less impressive since he was still knocked back. Their coordinated attack still utterly failed, and was only closer than the fight with Toppo because Goku and Vegeta could actually hold their own with Jiren.

By the way, do you think SSJB Goku was stronger than SSJBE Vegeta since he was barely using Kaio-Ken at this point?

Dyspo is more like low tier SSJB looking at how he fared against actual SSJB levels. Dyspo mentions at least once he was going to show more speed, so he wasn’t going all out from the beginning. Whenever Dyspo raises his speed he stomps Freeza, and whatever defense he can put up is credited to Dyspo’s predictable fighting style.

Aside from that, who said they needed to push themselves beyond their limits to get stronger? That's something you pulled out of your ass. Evidence clearly doesn't support that.

Bro wtf are you talking about:wtf


Blue Goku/Blue Vegeta ~ Jiren (122) > UI Omen Goku/SSJ2 Kefla > Base Kefla > Toppo

Where do 17 and Golden Frieza fall in the above chain? It's certainly not God tier that's for sure.

I don't know why you are referencing this. I'm talking about when Frieza battles Goku. Frieza begins in Golden form and Goku begins in Base. Both are dancing around each other searching for an opportunity to land an attack but they can't. That suggests that they were equal which means that Frieza's Final Form at the time was inherently weaker.

Under Toppo.

I’m bringing that up because it shows Freeza didn’t transform out of need, but because he wanted to. Are you trying to say Golden Freeza can’t suppress himself below his True form?
 

Goku9001

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All right I'm not interested. We clearly don't see eye to eye. They're not Blue tier when they're drastically that below Goku.
 
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