Vegeta(vs jheese) Vs Goku(vs Ginyus)

[ahill1]

Who wins? No kaioken.

 

[kriss-]

Goku lol stomps Vegeta like he did the Ginyu Force.

Goku ~ 90,000 (Real)
Goku ~ 60,000 (Ginyu's Estimate)
Vegeta ~ 50,000 (Zenkai)
Ginyu Force ~ 40,000

 

[ahill1]

Goku lol stomps Vegeta like he did the Ginyu Force.

Goku ~ 90,000 (Real)
Goku ~ 60,000 (Ginyu's Estimate)
Vegeta ~ 50,000 (Zenkai)
Ginyu Force ~ 40,000

But Ginyu was confident that with Vegeta's body he could defeat Gohan and Kuririn, something that in Goku's body he was totally unable to.

 

[POOHEAD189]

But Ginyu was confident that with Vegeta's body he could defeat Gohan and Kuririn, something that in Goku's body he was totally unable to.

I'd put that down as because Vegeta uses his power in a similar way to Ginyu. Not that Vegeta was stronger. Goku was trained by earthling masters focusing on martial arts and not sheer power like the aliens he later meets.

 

[Ryuzaki]

* Vegeta had a little trouble with jheese, though the battle was still mostly one-sided.
* Goku completely toyed with both jheese and burter at the same time.

The outcome is obvious.

 

[ahill1]

* Vegeta had a little trouble with jheese, though the battle was still mostly one-sided.
* Goku completely toyed with both jheese and burter at the same time.

The outcome is obvious.

The outcome is not obvious duh; Once again, Ginyu was confident that with Vegeta's body he could defeat Gohan and Kuririn, a feat that in Goku's body he was totally unable to. Goku himself said that all would be over if Ginyu take Vegeta's body.

Oh, and Semi Cell basically one shoted 16, while Future Trunks SSJ ( Post Second Rosat ) did not one shoted Imperfect Cell... Is Semi Cell stronger than Future Trunks SSJ?

 

[ahill1]

* Vegeta had a little trouble with jheese, though the battle was still mostly one-sided.
* Goku completely toyed with both jheese and burter at the same time.

The outcome is obvious.

The outcome is not obvious duh; Once again, Ginyu was confident that with Vegeta's body he could defeat Gohan and Kuririn, a feat that in Goku's body he was totally unable to. Goku himself said that all would be over if Ginyu's take Vegeta's body.

Oh, and Semi Cell basically one shoted 16, while Future Trunks SSJ ( Post Second Rosat ) did not one shoted Imperfect Cell... Is Semi Cell stronger than Future Trunks SSJ?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Who wins? No kaioken.

I have those two powers equal. Once Vegeta got serious, he stomped Jeice as easily as Goku had done on
Burter.

 

[Ryuzaki]

* Vegeta had a little trouble with jheese, though the battle was still mostly one-sided.
* Goku completely toyed with both jheese and burter at the same time.

The outcome is obvious.

The outcome is not obvious duh; Once again, Ginyu was confident that with Vegeta's body he could defeat Gohan and Kuririn, a feat that in Goku's body he was totally unable to. Goku himself said that all would be over if Ginyu take Vegeta's body.

Oh, and Semi Cell basically one shoted 16, while Future Trunks SSJ ( Post Second Rosat ) did not one shoted Imperfect Cell... Is Semi Cell stronger than Future Trunks SSJ?

1)Ginyu was confident based on what ? He can't even sense ki, and he didn't even analyzed Vegeta's power level. Besides, it's implied that Goku's body was the only one that Ginyu wasn't able to master : he was surprised that he couldn't have access to all his powers. As such, did he really thought for one second that he might not master Vegeta's power ?

2)There is a difference between the two instances : Cell blasted 16...irrelevant argument. Besides, it was made clear by statements and feats that Trunks was stronger. Here, the only reason you think Vegeta is stronger is because of your interpretation.

The only factual evidences is that Vegeta powered up, was at full power, and had little trouble with Jheese. On the other hand, Goku, while not at full power completely toyed with Jheese and Burter. You can believe what you want of course, but to me, it's made clear that Goku would stomp Vegeta.

 

[ahill1]

* Vegeta had a little trouble with jheese, though the battle was still mostly one-sided.
* Goku completely toyed with both jheese and burter at the same time.

The outcome is obvious.

The outcome is not obvious duh; Once again, Ginyu was confident that with Vegeta's body he could defeat Gohan and Kuririn, a feat that in Goku's body he was totally unable to. Goku himself said that all would be over if Ginyu take Vegeta's body.

Oh, and Semi Cell basically one shoted 16, while Future Trunks SSJ ( Post Second Rosat ) did not one shoted Imperfect Cell... Is Semi Cell stronger than Future Trunks SSJ?

1)Ginyu was confident based on what ? He can't even sense ki, and he didn't even analyzed Vegeta's power level. Besides, it's implied that Goku's body was the only one that Ginyu wasn't able to master : he was surprised that he couldn't have access to all his powers. As such, did he really thought for one second that he might not master Vegeta's power ?

2)There is a difference between the two instances : Cell blasted 16...irrelevant argument. Besides, it was made clear by statements and feats that Trunks was stronger. Here, the only reason you think Vegeta is stronger is because of your interpretation.

The only factual evidences is that Vegeta powered up, was at full power, and had little trouble with Jheese. On the other hand, Goku, while not at full power completely toyed with Jheese and Burter. You can believe what you want of course, but to me, it's made clear that Goku would stomp Vegeta.

1) Ginyu can judge the strength of someone based on their movements; Oh, and not only he is allowed, but Goku also said it would be all over if Ginyu overtake Vegeta's body, but Ginyu can't do anything with Goku's body. Why? Because in the body of Vegeta Ginyu can access more powers. Why? Because Vegeta is probably stronger, as simple as that. You are twisting a simple scenario.

2) is not irrelevant; Semi Cell defeated 16 with a GENERIC blast, while a punch of Trunks was unable to defeat an opponent much weaker than 16 ... By that logic Semi Cell > Trunks, which is wrong. Oh, and Vegeta base did better against Chibi Boo than Gohan SSJ did against Fat Boo, this means that base vegeta > Gohan SSJ? Don't.

3) since Vegeta increased his powers, he defeated Jheese as easily as Goku defeated Butta. But Vegeta is more powerful than that Goku, because Goku himself said it would be the end if Ginyu overtake Vegeta's body, namely Vegeta (Vs Jheese) > Goku (90,000).

 

[Papasmurf]

Ginyu acts like possessing Vegeta's body will give him better chances than ever before, which Goku thinks will be the case. Combined with the dialogue of Vegeta thinking himself as getting closer to the Super Saiyan (something he repeats to Freeza when his power was rivaling 530,000), I tend to think Vegeta was toying with Jheese until raising it when he taunted him to look at his Scouter. I also find him having no power reserves beyond what he showed when fighting Jheese, then magically elevating himself to over 400,000 to be implausible as Vegeta never implies he suddenly tapped into some insane amounts of power, but that he was indeed approaching Super Saiyan. Hell, he made comments about Kuririn and Gohan's powers constantly rising around that time, but doesn't state he feels way stronger than before the "nap."

It also seems rather dumb and presumptious for Ginyu to be so full of himself thinking that possessing Vegeta's body will turn the tables against people who were outstripping him in Goku's since he didn't even realize how much body-switching could weaken him until he fought Gohan and Krillin.

 

[ahill1]

Ginyu acts like possessing Vegeta's body will give him better chances than ever before, which Goku thinks will be the case. Combined with the dialogue of Vegeta thinking himself as getting closer to the Super Saiyan (something he repeats to Freeza when his power was rivaling 530,000), I tend to think Vegeta was toying with Jheese until raising it when he taunted him to look at his Scouter. I also find him having no power reserves beyond what he showed when fighting Jheese, then magically elevating himself to over 400,000 to be implausible as Vegeta never implies he suddenly tapped into some insane amounts of power, but that he was indeed approaching Super Saiyan.

This, this, this, this... That's what Kenshi said Ryuzaki.

Vegeta ( Vs Jheese ) >> Goku ( Vs Ginyus ) is pretty much right. Thanks Kenshi.

 

[Papasmurf]

What mostly seals it for me is that Goku's seen how he can't even sense ki right in a foreign body and seen how much weaker it made both himself and Ginyu, yet treats Vegeta's body as a complete game-changer after Vegeta says he's tapped into powers nearing Super Saiyan. On top of that Vegeta only directly says Gohan and Kuririn's powers are increasing, but makes a distinction for himself saying he's nearing Super Saiyan. He even feels confident taking Freeza's first form which... is pretty stupid for someone that had slight trouble with a Nail tier opponent if he wasn't just suppressed against him.

 

[ahill1]

What mostly seals it for me is that Goku's seen how he can't even sense ki right in a foreign body and seen how much weaker it made both himself and Ginyu, yet treats Vegeta's body as a complete game-changer after Vegeta says he's tapped into powers nearing Super Saiyan. On top of that Vegeta only directly says Gohan and Kuririn's powers are increasing, but makes a distinction for himself saying he's nearing Super Saiyan. He even feels confident taking Freeza's first form which... is pretty stupid for someone that had slight trouble with a Nail tier opponent if he wasn't just suppressed against him.

Agreed; Where do you have Vegeta ( Powered Up vs Jheese )? Like 400,000?

 

[Papasmurf]

I think he raised himself over 180,000 (which makes sense as Ginyu thought Vegeta's new power was enough to give him the edge if he obtained his body), but since the Scouter only breaks when he powers up further against Freeza I don't think he was 400,000 or 500,000 yet. Goku can sense ki in his body too and agrees Ginyu would win if he obtained Vegetas body, so it was probably stronger than what he displayed earlier against Ginyu.

 

[Ryuzaki]

The outcome is not obvious duh; Once again, Ginyu was confident that with Vegeta's body he could defeat Gohan and Kuririn, a feat that in Goku's body he was totally unable to. Goku himself said that all would be over if Ginyu take Vegeta's body.

Oh, and Semi Cell basically one shoted 16, while Future Trunks SSJ ( Post Second Rosat ) did not one shoted Imperfect Cell... Is Semi Cell stronger than Future Trunks SSJ?

1)Ginyu was confident based on what ? He can't even sense ki, and he didn't even analyzed Vegeta's power level. Besides, it's implied that Goku's body was the only one that Ginyu wasn't able to master : he was surprised that he couldn't have access to all his powers. As such, did he really thought for one second that he might not master Vegeta's power ?

2)There is a difference between the two instances : Cell blasted 16...irrelevant argument. Besides, it was made clear by statements and feats that Trunks was stronger. Here, the only reason you think Vegeta is stronger is because of your interpretation.

The only factual evidences is that Vegeta powered up, was at full power, and had little trouble with Jheese. On the other hand, Goku, while not at full power completely toyed with Jheese and Burter. You can believe what you want of course, but to me, it's made clear that Goku would stomp Vegeta.

1) Ginyu can judge the strength of someone based on their movements; Oh, and not only he is allowed, but Goku also said it would be all over if Ginyu overtake of Vegeta, Ginyu, but can't do anything with Goku's body. Why? Because the body of Vegeta Vegeta can access more powers. Why? Because Vegeta is probably stronger, as simple as that. You are making a single scenario.

2) is not irrelevant; Semi Cell defeated 16 with a generic blast, while a punch of Trunks was unable to defeat an opponent much weaker than 16 ... By that logic Semi Cell > Trunks, which is wrong. Oh, and Vegeta did better against Chibi Boo than Gohan SSJ did against Fat Boo, this means that basis vegeta > Gohan SSJ? Don't.

3) since Vegeta increased his powers, he won Jheese as easily as Goku won Butta. But Vegeta is more powerful than that Goku, because Goku himself said it would be the end if Ginyu overtake Vegeta's body, namely Vegeta (Vs Jheese) > Goku (90.000).

1)Based on movement ? Vegeta did literally nothing which would put him even above Base Goku, but he'd somehow be able to tell Vegeta > Goku ? The only thing that Ginyu's quote prove is that he think he'd be able to master Vegeta's power more than Goku's. Anything beyond that is pure assumption.

2)Obviously, if you think that Trunks and Kid Boo weren't holding back. Vegeta (vs Jheese) was never, never showed to perform any feat above Goku.

3)I've checked, and Vegeta didn't increased his power against Jheese. He just got rid of him when he started fighting seriously. Goku toyed with Jheese and Butta, dodging and blocking all of their hits at the same time. Oh besides, Goku knocked out Butta with normal blows alone. While using less than 70 % of his power. And even holding back enough to not kill them. Vegeta blasted Jheese, but otherwise, he took his blows.

Vegeta really can't compete with Goku feat-wise.

 

[ahill1]

I think he raised himself over 180,000 (which makes sense as Ginyu thought Vegeta's new power was enough to give him the edge if he obtained his body), but since the Scouter only breaks when he powers up further against Freeza I don't think he was 400,000 or 500,000 yet. Goku can sense ki in his body too and agrees Ginyu would win if he obtained Vegetas body, so it was probably stronger than what he displayed earlier against Ginyu.

I've been re-reading that part, and Goku said Ginyu couldn't use the Kaioken, so Vegeta would only be up to 90,000, don't you think? In addition, Vegeta was surprised that Goku had a power of 180,000.

 

[Papasmurf]

What makes me think he was over 180,000 is that Goku knows what the Kaioken is, but Ginyu merely thinks that's Goku's regular power which is why he says this body has a battle power over 180,000.

What you also have to remember is that Vegeta knows Goku can amplify his power through the Kaioken due to Goku using various multiples of it in the Saiyan arc, so he'd be expecting Goku to be able to raise it further than 180,000.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Well in that case, I'd put Vegeta above Goku.

 

[ahill1]

1)Ginyu was confident based on what ? He can't even sense ki, and he didn't even analyzed Vegeta's power level. Besides, it's implied that Goku's body was the only one that Ginyu wasn't able to master : he was surprised that he couldn't have access to all his powers. As such, did he really thought for one second that he might not master Vegeta's power ?

2)There is a difference between the two instances : Cell blasted 16...irrelevant argument. Besides, it was made clear by statements and feats that Trunks was stronger. Here, the only reason you think Vegeta is stronger is because of your interpretation.

The only factual evidences is that Vegeta powered up, was at full power, and had little trouble with Jheese. On the other hand, Goku, while not at full power completely toyed with Jheese and Burter. You can believe what you want of course, but to me, it's made clear that Goku would stomp Vegeta.

1) Ginyu can judge the strength of someone based on their movements; Oh, and not only he is allowed, but Goku also said it would be all over if Ginyu overtake of Vegeta, Ginyu, but can't do anything with Goku's body. Why? Because the body of Vegeta Vegeta can access more powers. Why? Because Vegeta is probably stronger, as simple as that. You are making a single scenario.

2) is not irrelevant; Semi Cell defeated 16 with a generic blast, while a punch of Trunks was unable to defeat an opponent much weaker than 16 ... By that logic Semi Cell > Trunks, which is wrong. Oh, and Vegeta did better against Chibi Boo than Gohan SSJ did against Fat Boo, this means that basis vegeta > Gohan SSJ? Don't.

3) since Vegeta increased his powers, he won Jheese as easily as Goku won Butta. But Vegeta is more powerful than that Goku, because Goku himself said it would be the end if Ginyu overtake Vegeta's body, namely Vegeta (Vs Jheese) > Goku (90.000).

1)Based on movement ? Vegeta did literally nothing which would put him even above Base Goku, but he'd somehow be able to tell Vegeta > Goku ? The only thing that Ginyu's quote prove is that he think he'd be able to master Vegeta's power more than Goku's. Anything beyond that is pure assumption.

2)Obviously, if you think that Trunks and Kid Boo weren't holding back. Vegeta (vs Jheese) was never, never showed to perform any feat above Goku.

3)I've checked, and Vegeta didn't increased his power against Jheese. He just got rid of him when he started fighting seriously. Goku toyed with Jheese and Butta, dodging and blocking all of their hits at the same time. Oh besides, Goku knocked out Butta with normal blows alone. While using less than 70 % of his power. And even holding back enough to not kill them. Vegeta blasted Jheese, but otherwise, he took his blows.

Vegeta really can't compete with Goku feat-wise.

Lol you're not even trying to make sense.

1) Goku when he was back to his body, said it would be the end if Ginyu stole the body of Vegeta.

2) As I said, are not always reliable; I never was told that Trunks or Chibi Boo were suppressed. That means you can't take the feats so literally. Vegeta never showed a feat over Goku, and? It was heavily implied that Vegeta is above Goku, Goku himself said it would be all over if he is allowed to take the body of Vegeta.

3) Yea, Vegeta has increased his powers. Before Jheese was giving some trouble to Vegeta, but after Vegeta increases its power, he defeats Jheese in the blink of an eye.

It's pretty clear that Vegeta ( Vs Jheese ) >> Goku ( Vs Ginyus ).