Vegeta would not have destroyed the healing chamber, when he was healed?

[VampireWicked]

Trunks trying to attack Cell as he was going into his Perfect form, Gohan trying to destroy Boo's cocoon before he could awaken, etc.

Those cases failed, of course, but it's unlikely this scenario would when Goku's power already exceeds what Freeza's initial true form would have and Vegeta is opportunistic enough to bring up the idea if he thinks there's a shot at it working.

Those are slightly different situations.
Both situations they knew the potential threat, had an idea of where they stood against it & they were on earth with no wishes available to send people to safety.
Flimsy but possible.


2. Goku didn't exceed Frieza's 50% Final Form, only matched it with Kaioken.
Without Kaioken x20 Goku against the 1st, 2rd, & 3rd Forms of Frieza.
But Frieza will do whatever it takes when desperate, & he is going to be looking to go into his Final Form by hook or crook.

Yes Vegeta would no doubt urge Goku to take advantage of Frieza in his 2rd & 3rd forms, but Frieza would most likely Kill Vegeta for making the suggestion or attempt.

Which is never implied in the slightest through the context of the narrative. Not only do we have Goku's line here:
[+] SpoilerImageBut Freeza later powers up to 70% to face a far stronger version of Goku and is confident in it being enough, so him being any higher than 50% would be a huge stretch (especially when he makes it apparent what percentage he's using after his rise to 50% through statements).

Oh no doubt, but it's implied Frieza has more power to tap into, so anything is possible.

Given Goku at Kaioken x20 equals 50% FInal Form Frieza & the Kamehameha didn't anything to the point to where Frieza really needed to defend against taking any real damage.
Goku beyond that point has a general idea of how powerful 100% Final Form Frieza really is.

2. Where did Frieza fight at 70%?

Given what's mentioned above and the actual fight showing them as almost equal, the real difference between them is far less than 30 mil.
A 20% difference between two fighters has consistently been shown to be far from small, too. The gap between KKx2 Goku and 18k Vegeta was roughly 1.1x, yet the latter was overpowering Goku prior to using his full power, 24k Vegeta was able to ragdoll Dodoria with a similar gap, etc.

How'd you set up the percentage difference?

Anyway The guides says
Goku: 3,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— Kaiō-Ken x10: 30,000,000 Calculated: Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— Kaiō-Ken x20: 60,000,000 Calculated: Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— Super Saiyan: 150,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83

Freeza (first form): 530,000 Dragon Ball Chapter 286
— second form: over 1,000,000 Dragon Ball Chapter 296
— final form, 50% full power: 60,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— final form, 100% full power: 120,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83

Number wise it's a 30Million+ difference gap between them.

It shows that even Piccolo can't be 100% accurate in his assertions, which is worth noting when his Ki sensing isn't shown to be outright inferior to Goku's.

It shows a general idea not an exact calculation.
Piccolo knew they were just not by how much.

It has been shown, however, that his deductions aren't always 100%. For instance, cases of him only being able to estimate more or less who a fighter is comparable to, such as only being able to assert Dabura was "about" as strong as Cell. You also have this statement of him comparing Post-Z Sword Gohan and Boo.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

If his Ki estimations were 100% accurate, he'd be able to tell which of the two were stronger, rather than wondering. It's not as if he would be bothered about damaging Gohan's pride by saying Boo was stronger, given he did the exact same with Piccolo when comparing him to Cell. This version of Goku should also be far more experienced at sensing Ki than his Freeza Arc self, for what it's worth.

Ki estimates they aren't established as 100% to the exact number, they're educated guesses baed on what's experienced.
Ballpark assumptions aren't going to be 100% accurate, just establishes where they stand.

Goku can feel how powerful 50% Frieza is so he can give a general ballpark guess of how powerful 100% frieza would be & then compare it to himself as A SuperSaiyan.

2. Wasn't it hard to get a general reading of where Majin Buu's PowerLevel stood because it was misleading.
So Goku sensing & comparing Gohan to something misleading would be that much more of a guess.

Assuming this is 3rd form Freeza, distracting Goku is the only real objective. The rest are oneshot material, so whether or not they're distracted wouldn't matter overall.

Yeah but you gotta do this without triggering SuperSaiyan for Goku, & that would be difficult since you wouldn't expect it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Those are slightly different situations.
Both situations they knew the potential threat, had an idea of where they stood against it & they were on earth with no wishes available to send people to safety.

Goku knows the potential threat too. He's had Kaio warning him about how powerful Freeza is and the existence of Piccolo on Namek, or even close to Freeza depending when Goku arrives, puts the Dragon Balls at risk. That's more than enough reason to not mess around.

2. Goku didn't exceed Frieza's 50% Final Form, only matched it with Kaioken.

I never said he did. However, I wouldn't call blocking a Kamehameha and making Goku astonished by the feat "matching".

Yes Vegeta would no doubt urge Goku to take advantage of Frieza in his 2rd & 3rd forms, but Frieza would most likely Kill Vegeta for making the suggestion or attempt.

It'd take a pretty specific scenario for Freeza to accomplish this when far slower than Goku, unlike when Freeza actually killed Vegeta.

Oh no doubt, but it's implied Frieza has more power to tap into, so anything is possible.

He still didn't expect to need 70%, which he didn't utilise until after he directly attacked Namek's core, so to assume he used any more than 50% prior would be a huge stretch when we're given no indication of him doing so.

Given Goku at Kaioken x20 equals 50% FInal Form Frieza

He doesn't. He makes it pretty clear how ineffective the KKx20 Kamehameha was against 50% Freeza.

Spoiler

At no other point in the series has a fighter negated their equal's trump card with only one hand.

2. Where did Frieza fight at 70%?

When he attacked SSJ Goku with a kiai, the attack that destroyed half of Goku's blue undershirt.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P14.3
Context: after blasting Goku into the sea
Freeza: "Fu... fuhahahaha...!! You underestimated me!! Just so you know, that right now still wasn't my full power!! It was only about 70 percent..."

How'd you set up the percentage difference?

Based on the difference between the battle powers within those examples. Not that hard, really.

Anyway The guides says

What the guide says is clearly at odds with what the manga presents. Freeza blocks KKx20 Goku's Kamehameha and Goku is absolutely shocked by Freeza's ability to do so. At no point is Freeza suggested to have used any more than 50% to do so. It's pretty clear from what the manga presents that 50% Freeza > Kaioken x20 Goku.

Daizenshuu battle powers aren't infallible and, in some cases, can even be outright inaccurate. For example, it cites Piccolo Daimao as having a battle power of 260, higher than BoZ Tenshinhan's 250 despite the latter's 23rd TB self is made apparent to be stronger and faster than him in his fight with Goku. It also places 22nd TB Goku/Tenshinhan at 180, higher than BoZ Yamcha's 177 which clearly goes against all the feats and statements surrounding him.

Point is, Daizenshuu battle powers are a case by case basis, and there's far more evidence going against this entry than supporting it.

It shows a general idea not an exact calculation.

Ki estimates they aren't established as 100% to the exact number, they're educated guesses baed on what's experienced.
Ballpark assumptions aren't going to be 100% accurate, just establishes where they stand.

Yet you're implying Goku's estimates are exact, at least precise enough for the small gap between them.

Goku can feel how powerful 50% Frieza is so he can give a general ballpark guess of how powerful 100% frieza would be & then compare it to himself as A SuperSaiyan.

Their fight doesn't present the gap as being that big, at least nowhere near as much as the Daizenshuu would have you believe.

2. Wasn't it hard to get a general reading of where Majin Buu's PowerLevel stood because it was misleading.

Characters are still able to formulate some sort of understanding on how strong Boo is, even if their expectations are quickly subverted. For instance, Trunks estimating Boo to be as strong as Gotenks' base state after their training.

 

[VampireWicked]

Goku knows the potential threat too. He's had Kaio warning him about how powerful Freeza is and the existence of Piccolo on Namek, or even close to Freeza depending when Goku arrives, puts the Dragon Balls at risk. That's more than enough reason to not mess around.

Very true but Goku does things his way.
He took a chance on Vegeta, Recoome, Burter, Ginyu, even Frieza in the end.
When he has the opportunity to end a threat for good he doesn't always take it & stops it permanently.

I never said he did. However, I wouldn't call blocking a Kamehameha and making Goku astonished by the feat "matching".

Goku being astonished has nothing to do with it, 50% Frieza stopped a Kamehameha not with ease & did take damage.
Little damage but he did stop the attack nonetheless.

Frieza struggled to hold off the beam & Goku did match him but after that Kamehameha Goku was losing more energy getting exhausted.

It'd take a pretty specific scenario for Freeza to accomplish this when far slower than Goku, unlike when Freeza actually killed Vegeta.

Frieza has 5 targets to choose form, it only takes 1 good opportunity.

He still didn't expect to need 70%, which he didn't utilise until after he directly attacked Namek's core, so to assume he used any more than 50% prior would be a huge stretch when we're given no indication of him doing so.

When he attacked SSJ Goku with a kiai, the attack that destroyed half of Goku's blue undershirt.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P14.3
Context: after blasting Goku into the sea
Freeza: "Fu... fuhahahaha...!! You underestimated me!! Just so you know, that right now still wasn't my full power!! It was only about 70 percent..."

Yes it would that's why I said anything is possible.
Most likely the beam Frieza fired was more dense used to nullify the Kamehameha.

2. Frieza didn't expect Goku to go SuperSaiyan either, going 70% was on his way to 100%.
It wasn't him getting ready to fight, Frieza used 1 attack to get Goku to understand how powerful he is at full strength.

He doesn't. He makes it pretty clear how ineffective the KKx20 Kamehameha was against 50% Freeza.
[+] SpoilerImageAt no other point in the series has a fighter negated their equal's trump card with only one hand.

What the guide says is clearly at odds with what the manga presents. Freeza blocks KKx20 Goku's Kamehameha and Goku is absolutely shocked by Freeza's ability to do so. At no point is Freeza suggested to have used any more than 50% to do so. It's pretty clear from what the manga presents that 50% Freeza > Kaioken x20 Goku.

Daizenshuu battle powers aren't infallible and, in some cases, can even be outright inaccurate. For example, it cites Piccolo Daimao as having a battle power of 260, higher than BoZ Tenshinhan's 250 despite the latter's 23rd TB self is made apparent to be stronger and faster than him in his fight with Goku. It also places 22nd TB Goku/Tenshinhan at 180, higher than BoZ Yamcha's 177 which clearly goes against all the feats and statements surrounding him.

Point is, Daizenshuu battle powers are a case by case basis, and there's far more evidence going against this entry than supporting it.

It's not at odds really.

That was 1 Kamehameha attack on a 50% Frieza who had yet to take any damage before hand & frieza still struggled with stopping that attack.

[youtube]C1o5krVrVf8[/youtube]​

2. Goku did gain the upper hand prior to the Kamehameha, it's just as I said Frieza had yet taken any damage.
After the Kamehameha Goku went for the spirit bomb, he didn't continue with x20 Kaioken.
If he had then Goku could've held out & maybe wore down Frieza.

Based on the difference between the battle powers within those examples. Not that hard, really.

No I mean what did you do, how'd you setup the math problem?

Yet you're implying Goku's estimates are exact, at least precise enough for the small gap between them.

How am I implying anything when I've repeatedly said it's a Ballpark guess of how much stronger he would be compared to 100%.
Goku would know he is stronger, just not by how much.

Their fight doesn't present the gap as being that big, at least nowhere near as much as the Daizenshuu would have you believe.

At that level, a 30Million difference is a small gap.

Characters are still able to formulate some sort of understanding on how strong Boo is, even if their expectations are quickly subverted. For instance, Trunks estimating Boo to be as strong as Gotenks' base state after their training.

Yes however that's only what power he uses, not Buu's total PowerLevel.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Very true but Goku does things his way.
He took a chance on Vegeta, Recoome, Burter, Ginyu, even Frieza in the end.
When he has the opportunity to end a threat for good he doesn't always take it & stops it permanently.

He also killed Drum with a single hit and made sure to KO Reacoom and Butta before giving Jheese a chance to flee, so I'd say the chances of him realising the threat of Freeza and ending things quick are just as likely.

Goku being astonished has nothing to do with it

It does when the context behind it is Goku realising how overwhelmingly powerful Freeza is, as he makes apparent with his statement.

50% Frieza stopped a Kamehameha not with ease & did take damage.
Little damage but he did stop the attack nonetheless.

Indeed, the gap between the two isn't gigantic, but to cite them as equals would be going against what we're shown. At no other point in the series has a character neutralised a Kamehameha from an opponent bare-handed without a power advantage such as Goku VS Kuririn, Goku VS Raditz, etc.
Also, whilst Freeza was indeed superficially damaged, we have this line from Goku:

Spoiler

Goku makes it clear that there was no significant damage dealt to Freeza, despite his superficial wounds. Hardly what I'd expect of an opponent only equal to Kaioken x20.

The gap between KKX20 Goku and 50% Freeza is far lower than those examples, though the latter is definitely the superior of the two.

Goku was losing more energy getting exhausted.

I wouldn't cite Goku's stamina as a factor in this as the Kamehameha is merely a manifestation of his full power. His stamina should mean little on its actual power once he fires it.

Most likely the beam Frieza fired was more dense used to nullify the Kamehameha.

He didn't fire a beam though.

Spoiler

2. Frieza didn't expect Goku to go SuperSaiyan either, going 70% was on his way to 100%.

He still didn't expect Goku to overpower the percentage he was using at the time though and felt that 70% would be a game changer. That shows the percentage he was using prior was far below 70, so any higher than 50 is still reaching.

2. Goku did gain the upper hand prior to the Kamehameha, it's just as I said Frieza had yet taken any damage.

And failed to provide damage of worth after it too, according to Goku.

No I mean what did you do, how'd you setup the math problem?

Took the gaps between the various fighters, calculated the difference with a calculator and used them as a basis for what kind of gaps tend to result in various things. For instance, most of the examples in the Saiyan/Namek Arcs present a 1.1x difference as enough to hold a solid advantage, 1.2x is enough to stomp, etc.

There are some exceptions, but those mainly boil down to plot armouring, such as Goku taking hits from Oozaru Vegeta.

How am I implying anything when I've repeatedly said it's a Ballpark guess of how much stronger he would be compared to 100%.
Goku would know he is stronger, just not by how much.

If the gap between them is still quite low, it'd be far too much of a gamble. Power isn't the only factor in a fight, after all.

At that level, a 30Million difference is a small gap.

Not really. It's still a 20% difference, which in most cases prior was enough for the stronger fighter to stomp the weaker one.

Yes however that's only what power he uses, not Buu's total PowerLevel.

Which doesn't matter when they weren't aware of Boo's full power, yet still weren't able to perceive it 100%.

 

[VampireWicked]

He also killed Drum with a single hit and made sure to KO Reacoom and Butta before giving Jheese a chance to flee, so I'd say the chances of him realising the threat of Freeza and ending things quick are just as likely.

He didn't though & Frieza came to earth.
In this scenario no one has been killed yet, Frieza in 2rd/3rd Form would be losing so there's no reason to end things quickly.

It does when the context behind it is Goku realising how overwhelmingly powerful Freeza is, as he makes apparent with his statement.

No it doesn't because it doesn't change anything.
20x Kaioken did give Goku a chance but he took too much of a beating before hand.
If he used x20 Kaioken on 50% Frieza then maybe he could've did more in wearing Frieza down IF Goku could maintained it long enough to do so.

Indeed, the gap between the two isn't gigantic, but to cite them as equals would be going against what we're shown. At no other point in the series has a character neutralised a Kamehameha from an opponent bare-handed without a power advantage such as Goku VS Kuririn, Goku VS Raditz, etc.
Also, whilst Freeza was indeed superficially damaged, we have this line from Goku:
[+] SpoilerImageGoku makes it clear that there was no significant damage dealt to Freeza, despite his superficial wounds. Hardly what I'd expect of an opponent only equal to Kaioken x20.

The gap between KKX20 Goku and 50% Freeza is far lower than those examples, though the latter is definitely the superior of the two.

Yes but the guide says 50% Frieza & 20Kaioken Goku are evenly matched.

Note: As far as we can tell, Daizenshuu 7 is the first place that the battle powers for the battle with Freeza were printed. In the manga, Freeza says that his battle power in his second form is over 1 million (he thinks), and after reaching his third and final forms he gets much stronger each time. Goku is then able to fight evenly with Freeza without using the Kaiō-Ken, so 3 million seems a reasonable figure for him. Using Kaiō-Ken x10 would put him at 30 million, and Kaiō-Ken x20 at 60 million.

Freeza 50%: 60 million

It doesn't point out it's an even 60Million, so it could be 60Million 800Thousand or whatever with 20x Kaioken Goku at 60Million 300Thousand.

As you said the gap could be very small but either way Frieza did stop the Kamehameha & the guide points them out as evenly matched, so Frieza would be the first to stop an attack from an equal powered opponent in the series.

That's what we're shown as Goku did momentarily gain the upper hand as Frieza was surprised.
Goku's reaction goes along with what I told you before, Goku senses 50%Frieza is powerful but not how powerful he is.

So either they're evenly matched or Frieza tapped into a little more power.

I wouldn't cite Goku's stamina as a factor in this as the Kamehameha is merely a manifestation of his full power. His stamina should mean little on its actual power once he fires it.

If Goku is exhausted & beat up then he isn't going to fire off blasts at full strength.
His stamina means a lot as when he's not worn down he'd be able to charge the same attack a little faster.

He didn't fire a beam though.

In the last two boxes we don't see if he does or not.

He still didn't expect Goku to overpower the percentage he was using at the time though and felt that 70% would be a game changer. That shows the percentage he was using prior was far below 70, so any higher than 50 is still reaching.

Frieza didn't stop at 70% though.
It's not reaching when Frieza has another 50% in the tank.
Before Frieza went 100%, he shows can tap into more power without bulking up.

And failed to provide damage of worth after it too, according to Goku.

lol Yeah.
But IF Goku could maintain x20 Kaioken then maybe, MAYBE he could've did something.

Took the gaps between the various fighters, calculated the difference with a calculator and used them as a basis for what kind of gaps tend to result in various things. For instance, most of the examples in the Saiyan/Namek Arcs present a 1.1x difference as enough to hold a solid advantage, 1.2x is enough to stomp, etc.

There are some exceptions, but those mainly boil down to plot armouring, such as Goku taking hits from Oozaru Vegeta.

lol No, I mean divide, add, multiply.
Walk me through the steps.

If the gap between them is still quite low, it'd be far too much of a gamble. Power isn't the only factor in a fight, after all.

Oh I agree, & Frieza is too nasty.
Frieza is a dirty fighter.

But Goku alone with Frieza had nothing to lose but his own life.

Not really. It's still a 20% difference, which in most cases prior was enough for the stronger fighter to stomp the weaker one.

Yes but these are PowerLevels in the Millions, Not merely 30,000 to 60,000
It was enough 100% Frieza could hold his own.

Which doesn't matter when they weren't aware of Boo's full power, yet still weren't able to perceive it 100%.

It matters a lot when you're misreading Buu thinking he's at 100% at one point, then getting stomped when what you assumed was 100% is far far from what you're experiencing now.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

20x Kaioken did give Goku a chance but he took too much of a beating before hand.

It's not suggested he lost any stamina until after using Kaioken x20.

Yes but the guide says 50% Frieza & 20Kaioken Goku are evenly matched.

Then the Daizenshuu contradicts what's clearly shown.

It doesn't point out it's an even 60Million, so it could be 60Million 800Thousand or whatever with 20x Kaioken Goku at 60Million 300Thousand.

If that were the case, it would clearly say so.

That's what we're shown as Goku did momentarily gain the upper hand as Frieza was surprised.

Catching an opponent off-guard with a surprise power up isn't exactly the most solid advantage.

If Goku is exhausted & beat up then he isn't going to fire off blasts at full strength.
His stamina means a lot as when he's not worn down he'd be able to charge the same attack a little faster.

As I said before, he wasn't suggested to have lost any stamina or Ki until after using Kaioken x20. 50% Freeza only hit him a few times and neither Goku nor any of the spectators noted any fatigue. Even if counting the battle before Freeza went to 50%, both Goku and Freeza were treating that as a warm-up due to knowing the other was holding back, so he wouldn't have lost any stamina there.
He took just as many solid hits against Raditz and their fight went on for far more onscreen time than against 50% Freeza, yet his Kamehameha was still at its peak. In the same fight, you have a one armed, bleeding Piccolo still being able to fully charge up the Makankosappo with enough power to kill Raditz. You then also have each of Tenshinhan's successive Shin Kikohos affecting Cell as much as the first, despite the heavy drain each use took on his stamina.
Amplified Ki attacks can still hit at full power even if their user's stamina isn't 100%. Their stamina only affects how many times this can be done.

In the last two boxes we don't see if he does or not.

Whatever evidence we have says he doesn't. Saying it occurred offscreen is just admittance of a lack of evidence.

Frieza didn't stop at 70% though.

He did. Immediately after using 70%, he starts bulking up, not noting any other power up until reaching 85% whilst bulking up.

It's not reaching when Frieza has another 50% in the tank.

The gap between 50 and 70% is very thin to fit in the chain of 70% Freeza > SSJ Goku (Freeza's 2nd estimations) >> Hypothetical 50+% Freeza > SSJ Goku (Freeza's initial estimations)

Before Frieza went 100%, he shows can tap into more power without bulking up.

That's the scene where he uses 70%. The "three quarters" is a Viz mistranslation.

No, I mean divide, add, multiply.
Walk me through the steps.

Well, take the Goku VS Vegeta fight as an example. Vegeta holds the advantage over Kaioken Goku, and the difference between KKx2 Goku (>16k) and Vegeta's full power (18k) is no higher than a 1.125x gap, or Goku being over 88% of Vegeta's power. That seems to set a decent precedent for later feats in the series, such as 24k Vegeta stomping Dodoria and Dodoria's Daizenshuu 7 number of 22k being supported within the manga by him not mentioning being surpassed when Zarbon detects Vegeta's battle power as 22k against Cui. With Dodoria and Zarbon, you can factor in his rusty nature or even a drop in Shouki/Yuuki (which isn't necessarily implied), though it would still be a stretch to say they fell massively below the 20k level.

In other words, after you divide the larger power by the smaller one and then work out the percentage of the latter compared to the former, you can a good idea of how each fighter compares. In other words, most examples from the era of battle powers being used in the series point to as low as a 10% difference or so being a big deal.

But Goku alone with Frieza had nothing to lose but his own life.

Except he wasn't alone just yet. Piccolo, Gohan and Bulma were still on the planet and in the small possibility of Goku being killed, nothing's to stop Freeza from taking another crack at destroying Namek.

Yes but these are PowerLevels in the Millions, Not merely 30,000 to 60,000
It was enough 100% Frieza could hold his own.

That still doesn't change the percentage difference between them being fairly high compared to previous examples of even opponents. I fail to see how having higher battle powers would make the gap less relevant. The only thing I can see going for that line of reasoning are the initial battle powers being in the triple digits, yet trying to apply Part 1 feats to the battle power system just doesn't work when you have instances such as Old Piccolo Daimao stomping Goku whilst using less than half his full power or Piccolo stating the combined efforts of everyone other than Goku wouldn't be able to stop him.

 

[VampireWicked]

It's not suggested he lost any stamina until after using Kaioken x20.

No because he shut that down quick & went towards the SpiritBomb after realizing Kaioken isn't going to get anywhere.
It's been established that Kaioken is stressful & taxing on Goku though, so why would this be any different.

Then the Daizenshuu contradicts what's clearly shown.

It doesn't contradict anything, we're clearly shown 20Times Kaioken Goku landing one hit, missing another & 50% Frieza nullifying the Kamehameha.
We're aren't shown a complete fight between 20Times Kaioken & 50% Frieza showing how Frieza or Kaioken20 compares to one another.

So it cannot be said there's a contradiction from a hit, a dodge, a nullification when that's not a full test.

If that were the case, it would clearly say so.

How when the scouters were done away with at that point.
So it's a Ballpark estimate.

Catching an opponent off-guard with a surprise power up isn't exactly the most solid advantage.

It's a very solid advantage, it can cause a guard drop for a brief second or throws them off balance.
Fast enough a surprise anything can possibly change the tide in battle.
that's How Goku landed 1 hit on 50% Frieza.

As I said before, he wasn't suggested to have lost any stamina or Ki until after using Kaioken x20. 50% Freeza only hit him a few times and neither Goku nor any of the spectators noted any fatigue. Even if counting the battle before Freeza went to 50%, both Goku and Freeza were treating that as a warm-up due to knowing the other was holding back, so he wouldn't have lost any stamina there.

He took just as many solid hits against Raditz and their fight went on for far more onscreen time than against 50% Freeza, yet his Kamehameha was still at its peak. In the same fight, you have a one armed, bleeding Piccolo still being able to fully charge up the Makankosappo with enough power to kill Raditz. You then also have each of Tenshinhan's successive Shin Kikohos affecting Cell as much as the first, despite the heavy drain each use took on his stamina.
Amplified Ki attacks can still hit at full power even if their user's stamina isn't 100%. Their stamina only affects how many times this can be done.

The biggest focus was on Frieza's power & how huge it was in comparison.

Frieza going 50% Goku took a beating, that alone played a role in the strength of Goku's attacks.
As I said before it's been established Kaioken wears him out, & it was noted Goku's stamina is dropping as well as citing the difference in their reserves.

2. How do you know Goku's Kamehameha was at it's peak when no Ki output number has never been established?
Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon only takes one arm to focus & fire anyway. So Piccolo losing an arm isn't gonna make a difference.

3. There's never been an exact numbered Ki power measurement of each individual Ki beam attack, so exactly how would you know how powerful Base Goku's 1st Kamehameha is vs his 10th in a battle with say Final Form Frieza ?

Whatever evidence we have says he doesn't. Saying it occurred offscreen is just admittance of a lack of evidence.

Yes I'm not denying that.
If we can't see his hand in the manga but the anime makes the suggestion he applied that as part of his defense.
Then it's reasonable to assume the same was applied offscreen in the manga.

He did. Immediately after using 70%, he starts bulking up, not noting any other power up until reaching 85% whilst bulking up.

Frieza didn't stop to fight at 70%, it was to give Goku an idea of what to expect from 100%

The gap between 50 and 70% is very thin to fit in the chain of 70% Freeza > SSJ Goku (Freeza's 2nd estimations) >> Hypothetical 50+% Freeza > SSJ Goku (Freeza's initial estimations)

That's the scene where he uses 70%. The "three quarters" is a Viz mistranslation.

I chalk that up to Frieza just catching Goku off guard.

Well, take the Goku VS Vegeta fight as an example. Vegeta holds the advantage over Kaioken Goku, and the difference between KKx2 Goku (>16k) and Vegeta's full power (18k) is no higher than a 1.125x gap, or Goku being over 88% of Vegeta's power. That seems to set a decent precedent for later feats in the series, such as 24k Vegeta stomping Dodoria and Dodoria's Daizenshuu 7 number of 22k being supported within the manga by him not mentioning being surpassed when Zarbon detects Vegeta's battle power as 22k against Cui. With Dodoria and Zarbon, you can factor in his rusty nature or even a drop in Shouki/Yuuki (which isn't necessarily implied), though it would still be a stretch to say they fell massively below the 20k level.

In other words, after you divide the larger power by the smaller one and then work out the percentage of the latter compared to the former, you can a good idea of how each fighter compares. In other words, most examples from the era of battle powers being used in the series point to as low as a 10% difference or so being a big deal.

Yes but that was before Frieza & PowerLevels at 1Million+
Why scouters & exact numbers were tossed out.
It's easier to be vague with PowerLevels & assumptions.

Except he wasn't alone just yet. Piccolo, Gohan and Bulma were still on the planet and in the small possibility of Goku being killed, nothing's to stop Freeza from taking another crack at destroying Namek.

He was once they were off Namek.

That still doesn't change the percentage difference between them being fairly high compared to previous examples of even opponents. I fail to see how having higher battle powers would make the gap less relevant. The only thing I can see going for that line of reasoning are the initial battle powers being in the triple digits, yet trying to apply Part 1 feats to the battle power system just doesn't work when you have instances such as Old Piccolo Daimao stomping Goku whilst using less than half his full power or Piccolo stating the combined efforts of everyone other than Goku wouldn't be able to stop him.

The previous characters were never in the Millions.

That's 150Million & 120Million with a 30Million difference between them.
100 to triple digits with a 20% difference is going to be far more noticeable.
If Vegeta can put up a decent fight against Recoome than I don't see why 100% Frieza couldn't against SuperSaiyan Goku.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

No because he shut that down quick & went towards the SpiritBomb after realizing Kaioken isn't going to get anywhere.

That was after he drained himself using Kaioken x20.

It's been established that Kaioken is stressful & taxing on Goku though, so why would this be any different.

It's also established that increases in power and strengthening of the body allow for users to easily handle the Kaioken better, even on the higher levels. Goku stated he could handle up to Kaioken x10 after his training and that was when he was far weaker than his Zenkai, not to mention Goku seemingly having no issues when using x10 against Freeza.

It doesn't contradict anything, we're clearly shown 20Times Kaioken Goku landing one hit, missing another & 50% Frieza nullifying the Kamehameha.
We're aren't shown a complete fight between 20Times Kaioken & 50% Frieza showing how Frieza or Kaioken20 compares to one another.

Name one case of a character nullifying a Kamehameha whilst equal to its user.

How when the scouters were done away with at that point.

Irrelevant when the guide's purpose is to fill in the blanks.

So it's a Ballpark estimate.

That's an assumption.

It's a very solid advantage, it can cause a guard drop for a brief second or throws them off balance.
Fast enough a surprise anything can possibly change the tide in battle.
that's How Goku landed 1 hit on 50% Frieza.

I wouldn't deny that in premise, though it's clear it lead to nothing in the actual fight.

Frieza going 50% Goku took a beating, that alone played a role in the strength of Goku's attacks.
As I said before it's been established Kaioken wears him out, & it was noted Goku's stamina is dropping as well as citing the difference in their reserves.

Good catch on that part. I can agree that Goku's stamina wasn't at its peak at least, though saying it took a notable drop when he's not shown breathing heavily until after the Kaioken x20 is another issue entirely.

2. How do you know Goku's Kamehameha was at it's peak when no Ki output number has never been established?

Because at no other point in the series has a user's stamina affected the power of their Kamehameha. For instance, the KKX4 Kamehameha still having enough power to instantly push Vegeta back in the beam struggle.
The one exception to this was Gohan after being injured by Cell, but it was then made apparent by Goku that Gohan was subconsciously suppressing himself due to being worried for the planet, making it irrelevant.

3. There's never been an exact numbered Ki power measurement of each individual Ki beam attack, so exactly how would you know how powerful Base Goku's 1st Kamehameha is vs his 10th in a battle with say Final Form Frieza ?

The first amplified Ki attack would be more powerful, that's a given from the power of Piccolo Daimao's Bakurikimaha alone. However, that was only after he'd drained himself by using that attack, whereas Goku had only utilised the Kamehameha in this battle whilst warming up.

If we can't see his hand in the manga but the anime makes the suggestion he applied that as part of his defense.
Then it's reasonable to assume the same was applied offscreen in the manga.

That just means the anime's execution of the events was different from the manga, not that the former fills in blanks of the latter. It could be a different situation if the anime's events were an additional inclusion after what the manga showed, rather than being a different interpretation entirely.

Frieza didn't stop to fight at 70%, it was to give Goku an idea of what to expect from 100%

He didn't, though given how much he flaunted that much, it's not unreasonable to say he'd have done just that had the kiai proven more than a slight distraction.

Yes but that was before Frieza & PowerLevels at 1Million+.

I fail to see how that would affect the gaps in any meaningful way.

He was once they were off Namek.

Irrelevant when that was after he'd made his decision to let Freeza go to 100%.

The previous characters were never in the Millions.
That's 150Million & 120Million with a 30Million difference between them.
100 to triple digits with a 20% difference is going to be far more noticeable.

Based on?

If Vegeta can put up a decent fight against Recoome than I don't see why 100% Frieza couldn't against SuperSaiyan Goku.

Reacoom was made apparent to be toying with Vegeta, so that's a flawed comparison.

 

[VampireWicked]

That was after he drained himself using Kaioken x20.

Wasn't stated but I can see that happening.

It's also established that increases in power and strengthening of the body allow for users to easily handle the Kaioken better, even on the higher levels. Goku stated he could handle up to Kaioken x10 after his training and that was when he was far weaker than his Zenkai, not to mention Goku seemingly having no issues when using x10 against Freeza.

I agree. no denying he can handle higher Kaioken multipliers.

Name one case of a character nullifying a Kamehameha whilst equal to its user.

Name one other case before the Frieza saga involving characters with PowerLevels that high.

Irrelevant when the guide's purpose is to fill in the blanks.

Very relevant when guidebooks state exact PowerLevel numbers were done away with at the point.

That's an assumption.

That's what a ballpark estimation is.

I wouldn't deny that in premise, though it's clear it lead to nothing in the actual fight.

Goku saw that, why he went straight into charging for the SpiritBomb.

Good catch on that part. I can agree that Goku's stamina wasn't at its peak at least, though saying it took a notable drop when he's not shown breathing heavily until after the Kaioken x20 is another issue entirely.

Thanks.

Goku getting beat up before x20Kaioken, Frieza nearly drowning him, & then using Kaioken x20 wasn't good for his stamina.
Goku was burning out.

Because at no other point in the series has a user's stamina affected the power of their Kamehameha. For instance, the KKX4 Kamehameha still having enough power to instantly push Vegeta back in the beam struggle.
The one exception to this was Gohan after being injured by Cell, but it was then made apparent by Goku that Gohan was subconsciously suppressing himself due to being worried for the planet, making it irrelevant.

It can't be declared Goku applied the same Kamehameha Ki output when there's no way of telling if he used more Ki effort or not.

2. Not irrelevant as it was said Gohan's Kamehameha output was cut in half, so it's apparent Ki blast output can be effected by a user's condition.

The first amplified Ki attack would be more powerful, that's a given from the power of Piccolo Daimao's Bakurikimaha alone. However, that was only after he'd drained himself by using that attack, whereas Goku had only utilised the Kamehameha in this battle whilst warming up.

They don't have to use the attack in order for the output to drop.
As I said the condition of the user effects the output level.

That just means the anime's execution of the events was different from the manga, not that the former fills in blanks of the latter. It could be a different situation if the anime's events were an additional inclusion after what the manga showed, rather than being a different interpretation entirely.

Yes it could mean that but that doesn't erase the possibility.

He didn't, though given how much he flaunted that much, it's not unreasonable to say he'd have done just that had the kiai proven more than a slight distraction.

If Frieza's intention was to fight at 70% then he wouldn't touted 100.

I fail to see how that would affect the gaps in any meaningful way.

It effected them in that 100% Frieza did in fact hold his own against SuperSaiyan Goku.

Irrelevant when that was after he'd made his decision to let Freeza go to 100%.

Not irrelevant when Goku decided to remain in the first place.
He had no intention of leaving as he could've stomped & finished 50% Frieza when he first achieved SuperSaiyan.

Based on?

Based on the previous characters.
You're shown a difference.

Reacoom was made apparent to be toying with Vegeta, so that's a flawed comparison.

YES Recoome was toying with Vegeta but Vegeta still caused damage, minor but damage nonetheless.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Name one other case before the Frieza saga involving characters with PowerLevels that high.

How high their battle powers are is irrelevant if they are still roughly equal to each other as you suggest, as opposed to every other instance requiring the one nullifying a Kamehameha to be significantly superior to the user.

Very relevant when guidebooks state exact PowerLevel numbers were done away with at the point.

The guide states that battle powers were done away with due to reaching the point where calculating them any further than SSJ Goku's 150mil would become pointless. It doesn't say resorting to ballpark estimations is what was forced to happ

Goku saw that, why he went straight into charging for the SpiritBomb.

Indeed, after having used Kaioken x20 and seen that, in his own words, it amounted to nothing.

Goku getting beat up before x20Kaioken,

He was, and indeed he started panting after taking some hits from Freeza. However, this panting isn't something that's continued beyond that page until after he used x20, so I doubt it took a major toll on his stamina.

Frieza nearly drowning him

That was filler.

& then using Kaioken x20 wasn't good for his stamina.

Certainly, but we're discussing his condition prior to using Kaioken x20.

2. Not irrelevant as it was said Gohan's Kamehameha output was cut in half, so it's apparent Ki blast output can be effected by a user's condition.

Goku also said Gohan could win and that he was holding back, not to mention SPC being presented as an opponent close enough in power to Gohan to cause such an injury, so the loss of Ki was primarily a psychological factor of Gohan losing a lot of Shouki/Yuuki.

Yes it could mean that but that doesn't erase the possibility.

Considering the two scenes cover the same events with slightly different execution, it kind of does.

If Frieza's intention was to fight at 70% then he wouldn't touted 100.

That was after Goku showed it to be ineffective and started charging forward though.

It effected them in that 100% Frieza did in fact hold his own against SuperSaiyan Goku.

Which would only support the standing of him being far above 120mil when taking into account previous gaps.

Not irrelevant when Goku decided to remain in the first place.
He had no intention of leaving as he could've stomped & finished 50% Frieza when he first achieved SuperSaiyan.

I wouldn't deny that. Using things such as wishing everyone away, however, is indeed irrelevant to the point when Goku clearly didn't have that in mind and only got cued in to Kaio's plan after the Namekians' revival.

Based on the previous characters.
You're shown a difference.

Based on previous characters, we're shown a 20% gap is stomping material.

YES Recoome was toying with Vegeta but Vegeta still caused damage, minor but damage nonetheless.

Causing superficial damage on an opponent toying with you is a far different case to fighting seemingly evenly with someone, even having enough power to contend with their Kamehameha using Nova Strike and knocking them deep into the water.

 

[VampireWicked]

How high their battle powers are is irrelevant if they are still roughly equal to each other as you suggest, as opposed to every other instance requiring the one nullifying a Kamehameha to be significantly superior to the user.

Causing superficial damage on an opponent toying with you is a far different case to fighting seemingly evenly with someone, even having enough power to contend with their Kamehameha using Nova Strike and knocking them deep into the water.

Then that fits in with the possibilities I mentioned before.

1. 50% Frieza slightly off panel used a denser beam to nullify the Kamehameha.
We don't see anything slightly off panel so it can be assumed as the anime suggested it.

2. 50% Frieza upped his power enough to nullify the Kamehameha.
It was shown in the manga that Frieza can apply more power, 70% of his power before bulking up at 100%

If for that moment 20x Kaioken Goku wasn't equal to 50% Frieza then guides wouldn't dictate as such.
Is there anywhere in either the Daizenshuu or SEG says different ?

The guide states that battle powers were done away with due to reaching the point where calculating them any further than SSJ Goku's 150mil would become pointless. It doesn't say resorting to ballpark estimations is what was forced to happ

Ballpark estimations are exactly what they've been doing.


WHAT POWER!
Such tremendous power.
He's even stronger than Goku.
He's much stronger than I am.
Etc etc etc.

A Ballpark estimate isn't given an exact number but acknowledging a difference in power.
That's it.

Indeed, after having used Kaioken x20 and seen that, in his own words, it amounted to nothing.

Yes Goku as well as the onlookers saw there's a difference in reserve.
Even if Goku continued with 20x Kaioken he couldn't keep up against Frieza's stamina or power reserve.
So the SpiritBomb was pulled out.

He was, and indeed he started panting after taking some hits from Freeza. However, this panting isn't something that's continued beyond that page until after he used x20, so I doubt it took a major toll on his stamina.

That was filler.

Certainly, but we're discussing his condition prior to using Kaioken x20.

For what Goku needed to handle Frieza It did take a toll.
Him panting like that wasn't exactly showing how refreshed he was.
So it was obviously taking a toll on his stamina.

And Compared to what Frieza had in the tank, Goku couldn't keep up & not the power to do much about it.
Goku was exerting more Ki just to do something.
That ties into it.
That 20x Kaioken Kamehameha he threw had a lot more effort put into to match something he'd toss if he was well rested.

That's focus, that's effort, that's Ki control.
If you're exhausted do you believe you could manipulate & manifest an attack with the same energy output as when you're fully rested.

Goku also said Gohan could win and that he was holding back, not to mention SPC being presented as an opponent close enough in power to Gohan to cause such an injury, so the loss of Ki was primarily a psychological factor of Gohan losing a lot of Shouki/Yuuki.

The lose of Ki was do to injury.
Gohan's power was halfed.
The only psychological factor was Gohan holding back, Goku telling him not to is what made up the difference in that lost power.
Think about it, SuperPerfectCell is only able to match AscendedSaiyan Gohan who's using 1 arm.

Considering the two scenes cover the same events with slightly different execution, it kind of does.

It really doesn't if the anime wasn't altered to reflect the manga.

[youtube]hG0dsM8NIpA[/youtube]​

That was after Goku showed it to be ineffective and started charging forward though.

It was enough to knock Goku down.

Which would only support the standing of him being far above 120mil when taking into account previous gaps.

Not really.
Frieza was running on empty & his attacks were starting to be ineffective.

Based on previous characters, we're shown a 20% gap is stomping material.

There was a clear difference as Frieza was having more trouble keeping up.

I wouldn't deny that. Using things such as wishing everyone away, however, is indeed irrelevant to the point when Goku clearly didn't have that in mind and only got cued in to Kaio's plan after the Namekians' revival.

He held Frieza at bay so Gohan could reach the ship long before any wish was made.
Goku had something in mind otherwise he would've ended Frieza at 50% then & there.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

1. 50% Frieza slightly off panel used a denser beam to nullify the Kamehameha.
We don't see anything slightly off panel so it can be assumed as the anime suggested it.

We don't see anything supporting it in the manga continuity and the anime clearly goes a different route with its portrayal of the events.

2. 50% Frieza upped his power enough to nullify the Kamehameha.
It was shown in the manga that Frieza can apply more power, 70% of his power before bulking up at 100%

Which was never implied whatsoever, especially when Freeza had made it highly apparent whenever he made the slightest power up both both and after this instance.

If for that moment 20x Kaioken Goku wasn't equal to 50% Frieza then guides wouldn't dictate as such.
Is there anywhere in either the Daizenshuu or SEG says different ?

The guides also say Piccolo Daimao > BoZ Tenshinhan, despite the manga pointing to the exact opposite.

Ballpark estimations are exactly what they've been doing.

Scouter readings aren't ballpark figures though.

For what Goku needed to handle Frieza It did take a toll.
Him panting like that wasn't exactly showing how refreshed he was.
So it was obviously taking a toll on his stamina.

It was still a far cry from being completely exhausted though and certainly not by enough to suggest the Kamehameha Freeza nullified was at less than its full power.

The only psychological factor was Gohan holding back, Goku telling him not to is what made up the difference in that lost power.
Think about it, SuperPerfectCell is only able to match AscendedSaiyan Gohan who's using 1 arm.

If SPC was only able to match SS2 Gohan at less than half his power, he'd have never injured him so much with what wasn't even a special Ki blast.
Gohan holding back would've indeed been a major indicator of him losing Yuuki and some Shouki, two of the three core components that make up someone's overall amount of Ki. Also, SPC wasn't only able to match him. He was easily dominating the entire beam struggle in the manga.

It really doesn't if the anime wasn't altered to reflect the manga.

The anime has deviated from the manga's events multiple times though.

It was enough to knock Goku down.

For a brief moment. Not really much of an indicator that powering up further was unnecessary.

Not really. Frieza was running on empty & his attacks were starting to be ineffective.

The stamina problems of maintaining 100% were his biggest factor in being defeated though, not to mention their battle wasn't really long enough that they'd cause each other any sort of significant injury in such a small timeframe.

There was a clear difference as Frieza was having more trouble keeping up.

Still performed better than he should have for a supposed 20% disadvantage, using previous cases, he should've been ragdolled.

Goku had something in mind otherwise he would've ended Frieza at 50% then & there.

Indeed he did. Abandoning logic in favour of the battle lust SSJ provided making him want to fight 100% Freeza no matter what.

 

[VampireWicked]

We don't see anything supporting it in the manga continuity and the anime clearly goes a different route with its portrayal of the events.

We don't see Frieza's hand, so it he could've used an energy beam in that manner.
There's no YES he did or NO he didn't simply because we don't see it.
The Manga image cuts off what he does with his hand & the anime makes that a suggested possibility.

Them at that moment being equal all Frieza would need to do is brace himself against the attack which he did.

Which was never implied whatsoever, especially when Freeza had made it highly apparent whenever he made the slightest power up both both and after this instance.

Frieza is established as having more power.
He states he is at 50%
He later shows he can tap into more of his power without Transforming into his 100% form.
A sight power increase in that situation is possible & would not need mentioning as it's not a large enough increase to warrant pointing out.

The guides also say Piccolo Daimao > BoZ Tenshinhan, despite the manga pointing to the exact opposite.

What does the guides say about Piccolo Daimao?

Scouter readings aren't ballpark figures though.

I didn't say Scouter readings were, I said Sensing Ki is.
Sensing Ki gives an approximation of where they stand in ratio to each other.

It was still a far cry from being completely exhausted though and certainly not by enough to suggest the Kamehameha Freeza nullified was at less than its full power.

Given his panting & physical state it does suggest Goku did increase his effort at producing an output that matches a full power Kamehameha.

If SPC was only able to match SS2 Gohan at less than half his power, he'd have never injured him so much with what wasn't even a special Ki blast.
Gohan holding back would've indeed been a major indicator of him losing Yuuki and some Shouki, two of the three core components that make up someone's overall amount of Ki. Also, SPC wasn't only able to match him. He was easily dominating the entire beam struggle in the manga.

As I said his Ki was effected by his condition.

The anime has deviated from the manga's events multiple times though.

Yes but the overall point is made.

For a brief moment. Not really much of an indicator that powering up further was unnecessary.

But Frieza did anyway, he went to 100%

The stamina problems of maintaining 100% were his biggest factor in being defeated though, not to mention their battle wasn't really long enough that they'd cause each other any sort of significant injury in such a small timeframe.

Frieza would've caused less & less damage anyway as he was losing more stamina then Goku by far.

Still performed better than he should have for a supposed 20% disadvantage, using previous cases, he should've been ragdolled.

Frieza was most likely upping defense to keep that from happening.
He was buring a lot of energy by trying to go toe to toe with a SuperSaiyan.

Indeed he did. Abandoning logic in favour of the battle lust SSJ provided making him want to fight 100% Freeza no matter what.

Yes indeed.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

We don't see Frieza's hand, so it he could've used an energy beam in that manner.

He could have, but the manga itself provides no kind of evidence to hint at that being the case.

The Manga image cuts off what he does with his hand & the anime makes that a suggested possibility.

It doesn't as the manga never suggests it and Freeza using a Ki blast prior to the explosion hiding him lies in direct contradiction to what the manga shows.

Frieza is established as having more power.

He is, and also makes a habit of stating when he's using more effort (eg. increasing his speed against Vegeta) or using a greater percentage (eg. telling Goku he was using 70%). He did neither when commenting on the Kamehameha during the aftermath.

What does the guides say about Piccolo Daimao?

That he has a battle power of 260, in comparison to Ten's battle power at the start of the manga being 250. To make guidebook reliability even more skewered, the V-Jump issue it originates from also lists Kami at 220, amongst several other highly contradictive elements for Part 1 characters.

Spoiler

I didn't say Scouter readings were, I said Sensing Ki is.

Then the Daizenshuu indeed has them at equals, which again, lies in contrast to what we're shown.

As I said his Ki was effected by his condition.

Even assuming it did indeed affect his power, heavily bleeding and losing complete use of a whole arm isn't really comparable to panting heavily for a short while.

Frieza would've caused less & less damage anyway as he was losing more stamina then Goku by far.

Which is true, yet far different from the somewhat even battle we got for such a relatively large difference between them.

Frieza was most likely upping defense to keep that from happening.
He was buring a lot of energy by trying to go toe to toe with a SuperSaiyan.

And at no previous point in the series was such a viable option for making up for a 20% disadvantage, thus that assumption can't really be used to strengthen the difference provided in the Daizenshuu.

 

[VampireWicked]

He could have, but the manga itself provides no kind of evidence to hint at that being the case.

It doesn't as the manga never suggests it and Freeza using a Ki blast prior to the explosion hiding him lies in direct contradiction to what the manga shows.

He is, and also makes a habit of stating when he's using more effort (eg. increasing his speed against Vegeta) or using a greater percentage (eg. telling Goku he was using 70%). He did neither when commenting on the Kamehameha during the aftermath.

Prior to Kaioken x20, what makes us think 50% Frieza was serious.
50% was overkill & he owned Goku the entire time before hand.

Goku pulls Kaioken x20 catches Frieza by surprise & Frieza uses everything to stop the Kamehameha.
The Manga provides 50% Frieza stopped the Kamehameha, it does not specifically show exactly how Frieza stopped it, if it was with his bare hand or not.
Nothing is contradicted when the manga doesn't show it off panel actions.

However the overall point is 50% Frieza put forth a serious effort in defending against that Kaioken x20 Kamehameha.
The Guide says 50% Frieza & Kaioken x20 Goku in that brief moment were a match for each other.
Now considering how Frieza did struggle, the Guide is very much accurate.

That he has a battle power of 260, in comparison to Ten's battle power at the start of the manga being 250. To make guidebook reliability even more skewered, the V-Jump issue it originates from also lists Kami at 220, amongst several other highly contradictive elements for Part 1 characters.

1989

In 1989, the 31st issue of Weekly Shōnen Jump featured a special section on battle powers, along with a quiz-based Dragon Ball contest and a feature on the “Jump Anime Carnival”, which was where the Toriyama anime Kosuke-sama premiered. All three of these special sections were in the form of pull-out posters. The battle power section is called “Final Warriors-Great Collection!! Cards”. The introduction is in the form of Bulma with her scouter. She explains that each of the characters are given a number indicating their strength, as well as a symbol showing what martial arts school they belong to (such as the Turtle school or Crane school). These numbers are referred to as daitai no sentō-nōryoku (“approximate battle ability”), rather than the usual sentō-ryoku (“battle power”). It should be noted that the term “battle ability” is actually used in the manga a few times as a synonym for “battle power”, such as when Vegeta reads Goku as being 5,000.



However, no source for these numbers is mentioned. With the exception of Kame-Sen’nin, all of these battle ability numbers given for the characters here match those later given for them in Daizenshuu 7 (1996). Since this issue came out seven years before Daizenshuu 7, it seems that this was either a source for the Daizenshuu 7 list, or they share the same source. The games Dragon Ball Z: Kyōshū Saiya-jin (1990) and Dragon Ball Z: Sūpā Saiya Densetsu (1992) also use several of these battle powers.

When this issue came out, the battle with Vegeta was still in progress (the issue itself contains the struggle between Goku’s Kamehameha and Vegeta’s Gyarik-Hō), so all battle powers were intended to be for the battle with Vegeta and Nappa, unless otherwise noted.



Son Gohan: over 2,800

This is taken from his battle power while firing the Masenkō. In Daizenshuu 7 his battle power for the battle with the Saiyan is given as simply “2,800”, with no clarification that is “over” that number.



Son Goku (15 years old): 180

This was reused in Daizenshuu 7.



Son Goku (18 years old): 910

This would be Goku during the 23rd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. It is much higher than 416, his regular battle power during the fight with Raditz five years later, but it is slightly lower than his battle power while firing the Kamehameha then (“924 and rising”). This would work if it is his battle power while firing the Super Kamehameha during his fight with Piccolo, but nothing like that is mentioned.



Son Goku (24 years old): over 8,000

In Daizenshuu 7, this is rounded down to simply 8,000.



God: 220

This number appears to be original to this chart. It is lower than Demon King Piccolo’s, even though God is supposed to be stronger than the demon king. Since all of these figures are supposed to be during the battle with Vegeta, this number would only work if God had gotten much weaker between Goku’s battle with Demon King Piccolo and the battle with Vegeta.



Demon King Piccolo: 260
Demon King Piccolo/Ma Junior: 3,500
Raditz: 1,500
Nappa: 4,000

All of these figures are the same as in Daizenshuu 7.

Vegeta: Impossible to Measure

It notes that “his strength is unfathomable…!!”. As mentioned earlier, this was all printed while the Vegeta fight was still going on.



Chi-Chi: 130

This is her battle power during the 23rd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The Japanese Wikipedia page for Chi-Chi claims that a 1990 special issue of V-Jump gives Chi-Chi’s battle power as 137, noting that she is on par with Kame-Sen’nin.



Chiaotzu: 610
Tenshinhan: 1,830
Yajirobe: 970
Kuririn: 1,770
Yamcha: 1,480

Yajirobe’s battle power is the only one not in Daizenshuu 7. Again, these would all be from during the fight against Vegeta and Nappa.



Tao Pai-pai: 210

This would be Cyborg Tao Pai-pai to be exact (going by the picture).



Tsuru-Sen’nin: 120

This is another one which was reused in Daizenshuu 7.



Kame-Sen’nin (Muten Rōshi): 180

The picture would seem to indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“, so perhaps this is supposed to be his Kamehameha‘s power, or to indicate that he was stronger during his fight with the demon king than he was at the tournament?



Karin: 190

Another original figure that was not reprinted in Daizenshuu 7. In the manga, Karin tells Goku that he has “almost surpassed him (Karin)” after the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai, so this fits with Goku being at 180 during the tournament.



Mister Popo: 1,030

This is extremely high, considering that God is given as being only at 220, and God is stronger than Mister Popo by his own admission. Since these numbers are generally from the battle with Vegeta and Nappa, perhaps Mister Popo became more powerful after training the Earthling warriors for a year? Or since neither this battle power nor God’s were reused for Daizenshuu 7, maybe both were later deemed simply mistakes?



Kaiō: 3,500

This figure is original to this issue of Jump and was not reused in Daizenshuu 7. It puts Kaiō as being equal to Piccolo during his fight with the Saibaimen and Nappa.

Weekly Shōnen Jump and Daizenshuu 7 list both Goku and Demon King Piccolo with battle powers of 260 during their battle, so it is unclear what a battle power of 500 for Demon King Piccolo is based on. It would also stand to reason that Tambourine and Drum are listed too high in comparison to Demon King Piccolo. Overall, these battle powers don’t seem to fit in with the conventional, officially listed battle powers.

Demon King Piccolo: 500 [Set 1, Card No. 4]
Piano: 180
Tambourine: 340 [Set 2, Card No. 70]
Drum: 280

I don't remember much of DragonBall so I couldn't tell ya beyond that.

Then the Daizenshuu indeed has them at equals, which again, lies in contrast to what we're shown.

We're shown 50% Frieza struggle with a 20x Kaioken Kamehameha.
We're shown 100% Frieza get out paced by a SuperSaiyan Goku.

Even assuming it did indeed affect his power, heavily bleeding and losing complete use of a whole arm isn't really comparable to panting heavily for a short while.

Not the point of how one compares to another.
Being out of breathe or in pain has an effect on performance levels.

Which is true, yet far different from the somewhat even battle we got for such a relatively large difference between them.

Not at all different when Frieza was putting in a lot more work than Goku & Frieza's loss of effectiveness played a huge part in him losing.

And at no previous point in the series was such a viable option for making up for a 20% disadvantage, thus that assumption can't really be used to strengthen the difference provided in the Daizenshuu.

30,000 difference isn't going to be rag dolled when the PowerLevels are in the hundred millions.