Vegetto Blue (Black arc; manga) vs. Granolah (pre-2nd red eye asspull)

[Papasmurf]

That statement is made by Toriyama, the manga scaling is most likely entirely concocted by Toyo. Toriyama probably doesn't even buy into the Beerus wank. But for the sake of discussion, let's just assume this applies to the manga continuity as well.

1. There's a statement literally in the same arc that establishes that Jiren was so overwhelmingly powerful entirely through the high level efficiency of his strength. Contrast that to Cell Max who is a raging brute who can't wield his power properly in the slightest. Mindset is very significant. To a lesser degree you could even see this in Nappa vs Goku.

I agree with the Jiren example because it's thrown right in our faces, but Ki output/bodily strength was always the most important factor otherwise. Mindless monsters like Kid Boo and the Cell Jr.s or Saibamen were still able to compete with those roughly equivalent to their powers such as SSJ3 Goku, SSJ Vegeta and so on.

2. There was never a big gap between Gohan Beast and Cell Max, if there even is one. He was directly said to be weakened by Gamma's suicidal attack, even having Piccolo say they wouldn't have won without it. Even by the end of it, Gohan still thought it best to finish him off through targeting his weak point with a highly amplified attack (with a ridiculous amount of assistance in order to do so). Gohan had already witnessed the events of the Moro arc and the levels of power displayed by Goku and Vegeta there and yet he still finds it questionable even they could beat him.

The novelization of the movie states that Cell Max is an absolute pushover compared to Gohan Beast, and he outright tanked a full power punch. The gap seems lessened in the manga, but Gohan still had the edge. It is my belief that Gohan wouldn't have had the chance to draw out his hidden power and would have remained below Orange Piccolo with his regular Ultimate form had Cell Max not been weakened, not that intact Cell Max > Beast Gohan.

3. Broly though being a rageful lunatic, his fighting instincts and experience still carries over even when he loses control of his rationality. And I hate to bring this up, but he's put in the same conversation as Jiren when it comes to power efficiency in the manga. He's not a mindless fighter like Cell Max.

I think that them citing examples such as Gas and Broly in the same sentence as Ki control and balance was just Toyotaro being lazy and adding manga-only characters. Plus that same sentence even encompassed Moro iirc, who's never trained a day in his life. It isn't really valid in the slightest, although I'll grant that Broly perhaps has better Ki control than Cell Max by virtue of him being able to put up barriers and have enough rationality to realize death was near when Gogeta fired his FP Kamehameha.

 

[SIAD]

@Papasmurf And do you think this is true: Beerus (Final Arc Moro) >>>>>>>> Broly SSJFP (DBS Broly) >= Beerus (Start Arc Moro)?

I think AT had in mind that Beerus would be surpassed, but Toyotaro changed his mind and strengthened Beerus once Beerus' ancient power was surpassed by Goku.

 

[Papasmurf]

@Papasmurf And do you think this is true: Beerus (Final Arc Moro) >>>>>>>> Broly SSJFP (DBS Broly) >= Beerus (Start Arc Moro)?

I think AT had in mind that Beerus would be surpassed, but Toyotaro changed his mind and strengthened Beerus once Beerus' ancient power was surpassed by Goku.

I'm not really sure. But it might very well be the case since the Moro arc seems to carry on right after Goku teleports back from Vampa, if we are to try to glean an in-universe explanation for Beerus getting massively stronger.

 

[Future Warrior]

I agree with the Jiren example because it's thrown right in our faces, but Ki output/bodily strength was always the most important factor otherwise. Mindless monsters like Kid Boo and the Cell Jr.s or Saibamen were still able to compete with those roughly equivalent to their powers such as SSJ3 Goku, SSJ Vegeta and so on.

The thing is that Ki and mindset aren't mutually exclusive. The latter can act as an amplifer for the former. That's essentially how Goku was able to level up his Ul Omen to such an absurd degree that it surpasses his previous silver form UI.

This played a very small to almost nonexistant degree in Z, but it's taken a much bigger role in the DBS era.

The novelization of the movie states that Cell Max is an absolute pushover compared to Gohan Beast, and he outright tanked a full power punch. The gap seems lessened in the manga, but Gohan still had the edge. It is my belief that Gohan wouldn't have had the chance to draw out his hidden power and would have remained below Orange Piccolo with his regular Ultimate form had Cell Max not been weakened, not that intact Cell Max > Beast Gohan.

The novelization of the movie should not take precedance over what occurs in the manga. If you were to summarize strictly what is outwardly shown on panel, then yes, Gohan was treating Cell Max like a punching bag. But context is key.

I don't really see how the events of the story would change so drastically that Gohan wouldn't have reached Beast form against a FP Cell Max. If anything, the situation would look even more dire and perhaps there'd be actual dead bodies for Gohan to get mad over.

The fact is that Gohan Beast still decided on a Makankosappo (a very powerful version at that) to his weak point, held tightly by Orange Piccolo. Even matched even with him on a beam struggle until Goten and Trunks intervened. If Gohan Beast was that much more powerful, a Kamehameha completely vaporizing him would have been enough.

I'm not saying FP Cell Max would definitely have been stronger than Gohan Beast, but I doubt the difference is what you make it out to be.

although I'll grant that Broly perhaps has better Ki control than Cell Max by virtue of him being able to put up barriers and have enough rationality to realize death was near when Gogeta fired his FP Kamehameha.

Not just barriers, he reversed and replicated Goku's god bind in his wrathful state. He loses control of himself but not his martial arts prowess.

 

[Papasmurf]

The thing is that Ki and mindset aren't mutually exclusive. The latter can act as an amplifer for the former. That's essentially how Goku was able to level up his Ul Omen to such an absurd degree that it surpasses his previous silver form UI.

This played a very small to almost nonexistant degree in Z, but it's taken a much bigger role in the DBS era.

Yeah it can be hard to bridge the two eras sometimes because DBS so frequently defies rules and tendencies established during Z.

The novelization of the movie should not take precedance over what occurs in the manga. If you were to summarize strictly what is outwardly shown on panel, then yes, Gohan was treating Cell Max like a punching bag. But context is key.

I don't really see how the events of the story would change so drastically that Gohan wouldn't have reached Beast form against a FP Cell Max. If anything, the situation would look even more dire and perhaps there'd be actual dead bodies for Gohan to get mad over.

Regular Ultimate Gohan was even weaker than Orange Piccolo who was being stomped by an armless Cell Max. Since Gohan Beast was clearly displaying an edge over Cell Max and his blast plowed straight through Cell Max's best attack, I think that it's the situational advantage created by the Gamma's sacrifice to weaken Cell Max enough that Piccolo was able to stall and later hold down Cell that gave them the opportunity to finish him off. Otherwise, Piccolo would not have been able to last so long and/or Gohan would've been targeted first similar to how Kid Boo immediately switched targets from Good Boo to Goku as soon as he saw the Genki Dama.

The fact is that Gohan Beast still decided on a Makankosappo (a very powerful version at that) to his weak point, held tightly by Orange Piccolo. Even matched even with him on a beam struggle until Goten and Trunks intervened. If Gohan Beast was that much more powerful, a Kamehameha completely vaporizing him would have been enough.

I'm not saying FP Cell Max would definitely have been stronger than Gohan Beast, but I doubt the difference is what you make it out to be.

Yeah the manga seemed to have toned down the gap between Cell and Gohan, but the scene of him tanking the punch is still there, so Gohan Beast is still above Cell Max regardless (though there exists room for debate as to whether that'd have been the case had Cell not been disarmed).

Not just barriers, he reversed and replicated Goku's god bind in his wrathful state. He loses control of himself but not his martial arts prowess.

In his Wrathful state he at least had the rationality to recognize that his father had been killed and to be emotionally devastated by the loss, as SSJ and FPSSJ he was just a rampaging monster and couldn't discern friend from foe (seeing as he had no idea Freeza killed his dad and would've considered him his ally had he been sane).

 

[SIAD]

@Papasmurf I think the same. So, this means that at the beginning of the Moro Arc, Merus was stronger than Beerus, but at the end of the Moro Arc, Beerus was stronger than Merus. Sounds good?

 

[Animelover5487]

I don't buy Beerus being light-years above Belmond,so yeah Granaloh wins. The GoD tier was just retconed.

 

[SIAD]

@Animelover5487 At what point in the series do you think Beerus' power was reconfigured? I think at the end of Arc Moro. That means Beerus (Final Moro Arc) >>> Merus > Beerus (At the beginning of the Moro Arc).

 

[Future Warrior]

Regular Ultimate Gohan was even weaker than Orange Piccolo who was being stomped by an armless Cell Max. Since Gohan Beast was clearly displaying an edge over Cell Max and his blast plowed straight through Cell Max's best attack, I think that it's the situational advantage created by the Gamma's sacrifice to weaken Cell Max enough that Piccolo was able to stall and later hold down Cell that gave them the opportunity to finish him off. Otherwise, Piccolo would not have been able to last so long and/or Gohan would've been targeted first similar to how Kid Boo immediately switched targets from Good Boo to Goku as soon as he saw the Genki Dama.

Regardless, the point is that it can't be denied that Cell Max was extremely powerful even with his premature birth giving him the mind of an infantile, and yet still proved to be stronger than Jiren who has spent countless decades honing his skill and strength to reach that level. Give Cell Max the same mastery that Jiren has and he would have folded Gohan Beast like a lawn chair.

Just because he technically had his physical body complete doesn't mean his overall power was peak. We even saw Cell Max himself was improving just from getting gaining experience fighting in a short timespan.

Spoiler

The Complete Cell Max was likely meant to have all fighting skills and intelligence engrained into him from the start. This doesn't even mention him potentially having specific abilities he never actually got to use just due to not having the proper brain functionality to understand how to wield them (perhaps he would have been able to regenerate).

And regarding Toriyama's statement about complete Cell Max, him saying even Broly could imply that at least in his perception, Broly > Gohan Beast.

So really, I don't think there's enough justification on casting doubt on Broly's power just because of your percieved notions on it being unreasonable for a hypothetical Cell Max we never got to see to be that strong.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Future Warrior read DBS???

 

[Future Warrior]

Future Warrior read DBS???

The post-Super Hero chapters have piqued my interest enough that I decided to start reading it with more intent now, and I went back on recent chapters and arcs to try to stay in touch with current material.

I won't promise more activity though, especially when I'll likely drop it again if Toyotaro starts his bullshit lol.