Was Gohan a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 vs. Dabura?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

AT's art >>> all. If we're to rely on story evidence, we still have Dabra thinking SSJ Vegeta (possessed) would be a fine warrior that would finish Gohan and Goku off at once and Goku being shocked by his having SSJ2. Logically I'd have Gohan use his full power against Dabra as well, and logically I'd have Vegeta and Trunks use a form that doesn't decrease speed while increasing power, but the art is undeniably portraying both as regular Super Saiyans

You really can't say Gohan was a Super Saiyan just replying with art >> all, that's an immature response. If you want to show why Gohan was just SS1, you'd better answer to these questions:

1) Why Gohan would purposely hold back against Dabura, especially when you know that he can revive Buu if he get hit?

2) Why Dabura think that he can take on Goku, Vegeta and Gohan at the same time, right after he saw SSJ Goku's power?

3) Why a guy around Sup. Cell can't even injure an even weaker SSJ Gohan than the one who got injured by Sup. Cell's physical attacks?

4) Why this same guy is considered as a threat to Goku seven years ago?

5)Why Supreme Kai thinks that Gohan (vs Dabura and Buu) > Gohan (vs Kibito), knowing that the latter was SSJ2?

 

[Void]

His artwork is much more consitent and reliable than his writing. He's clearly drawn as a Super Saiyan, the Full Color manga further reinforces that.

 

[p123]

There is conflicting evidence, neither side is perfect and both have their merits. Right now, I am going with Gohan being a Super Saiyan 2. The cast makes it clear that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is nothing special, but Enraged Gohan is. That divide between Gohan's powers, sums it up for me.

 

[Papasmurf]

AT's art is the most reliable indicator at that stage, especially considering that about a volume and a half later the dude literally illustrates Goku going through the transformations showing clear visual differences. Saying that toriyama, who stated he made the manga as easy to understand as possible for the young audience it targets, would draw a Super Saiyan 2 with all the visual traits of a Super Saiyan 1 just comes off as stupid to me, not to mention both sides are still supported by the story so I fail to see how 2 makes undeniably more sense.

It's essentially like arguing if for some reason Freeza was fighting in his third form (visually) against Piccolo that he was in truth using some other form because of some odd statements. I just can't see Toriyama making every effort to show the visual traits of one form if he intended it as another. Or does Super Saiyan 3 have eyebrows now? Or Super Saiyan lack yellow hair?

 

[Dragon Ball Fan]

AT's art is the most reliable indicator at that stage, especially considering that about a volume and a half later the dude literally illustrates Goku going through the transformations showing clear visual differences. Saying that toriyama, who stated he made the manga as easy to understand as possible for the young audience it targets, would draw a Super Saiyan 2 with all the visual traits of a Super Saiyan 1 just comes off as stupid to me, not to mention both sides are still supported by the story so I fail to see how 2 makes undeniably more sense.

It's essentially like arguing if for some reason Freeza was fighting in his third form (visually) against Piccolo that he was in truth using some other form because of some odd statements. I just can't see Toriyama making every effort to show the visual traits of one form if he intended it as another. Or does Super Saiyan 3 have eyebrows now? Or Super Saiyan lack yellow hair?

Gohan transformed into SS2 by free will against Kibito. There's no reason he wouldn't do the same against an opponent who is giving him problems. That's ridiculous.

Also, you didn't counter any of the points I put above...

 

[p123]

Agreed, considering Gohan transformed into Super Saiyan 2 at the Budokai, why wouldn't he against Dabura. He is writing to a young audience and all, he would make things clear. Why make Gohan able to turn SS2 when it doesn't matter and then he can't when it did matter. Doesn't make sense.

 

[Papasmurf]

AT's art is the most reliable indicator at that stage, especially considering that about a volume and a half later the dude literally illustrates Goku going through the transformations showing clear visual differences. Saying that toriyama, who stated he made the manga as easy to understand as possible for the young audience it targets, would draw a Super Saiyan 2 with all the visual traits of a Super Saiyan 1 just comes off as stupid to me, not to mention both sides are still supported by the story so I fail to see how 2 makes undeniably more sense.

It's essentially like arguing if for some reason Freeza was fighting in his third form (visually) against Piccolo that he was in truth using some other form because of some odd statements. I just can't see Toriyama making every effort to show the visual traits of one form if he intended it as another. Or does Super Saiyan 3 have eyebrows now? Or Super Saiyan lack yellow hair?

Gohan transformed into SS2 by free will against Kibito. There's no reason he wouldn't do the same against an opponent who is giving him problems. That's ridiculous.

Also, you didn't counter any of the points I put above...

Because they're points I've had to refute for years since this topic's been argued constantly.

You can also ask how Kaioshin is more shocked by base Vegeta's strength than Gohan's in the Budokai to the point of shitting his pants when he later remembers Gohan's transformation, or how they think fodder like Puipui can kill three guys that can fill up Boo's meter (this is before they even realized Gohan's energy filled up half of it). The writing in that part of the story in general is conflicting, but the art is clear as it gets. If Toriyama drew Goku as he appeared against the RRA in this arc, I wouldn't buy that he was an adult and argue the story for some reason depicted him as a child. I simply give the most credence to art in a story arc full of holes for either argument.

 

[Dragon Ball Fan]

Ye, and they way nobody talked how Gohan's power was pretty inferior in the fight against Dabra than it was in the Budokai speaks volumes too. Vegeta was impatient Gohan slacked off and that he shouldn't have this much problem, which doesn't make any sense if Gohan showed a power way greater at the tournament. Instead, they'd be talking how Gohan coukdn't access that power anymore.

Not to mention that Dabra was established to be at Cell's level, a foe whom which Gohan couldn't go unharmed. He went pretty unharmed against Dabra, with no signs of damage like in the fight against Cell. How would this be possible? By him being SS2.

 

[p123]

Either option requires one to make a leap of faith.

 

[Papasmurf]

The power arguments can easily be chalked up to them comparing his power as a SSJ1 which he used in a prolonged fight against Cell. Especially considering that Goku, who has no idea that Vegeta has SSJ2, does not refute his claim that he can finish Dabra off quickly - and it's never suggested Gohan's power is so inferior to his father's that he'd be weaker in the second form than Vegeta's first SSJ form.

Dabra being a Cell-level form can still be the case if they refer to the Cell who fought SSJ Gohan and Goku 7 years ago rather than his post-zenkai power. Not to mention SSJ2 tier power harms each fighter considerably. Majin Vegeta damaged the shit out of Goku within minutes (stated by Gohan) and zenkai Cell mauled Gohan's arm with one blast.

So the story evidence isn't comfortably in the SSJ2 side. the art undeniably is for the SSJ side. I simply go for the side that has more objective evidence, the art - when the story also supports it.

 

[p123]

Then you have to make the giant leap of faith that Gohan simply did not want to become a Super Saiyan 2 for shits and giggles.

 

[Papasmurf]

Don't get me wrong, I think it was stupid of AT to depict Gohan as a Super Saiyan 1 here and Vegeta and Trunks as SSJs against the Cell Jr.s without any explanation of why they wouldn't use a stronger, faster form. But the depiction doesn't change, and you could equate his lack of rage against fatty to inability to use SSJ2 here - which is again dumb due to him using it from the "rage" of Spopovich beating up Videl apparently, but again, the story here is rat anus.

 

[Void]

Then you have to make the giant leap of faith that Gohan simply did not want to become a Super Saiyan 2 for shits and giggles.

Don't get me wrong, I think Gohan should have been a Super Saiyan 2, but he is drawn as a Super Saiyan 1. Whether that was intentional or not is what I question.

He even has the Super Saiyan 2 aura minus the sparks for a few panels when he fires the Kamehameha at Boo's ball, and the he goes back to having the Super Saiyan aura.

The Boo arc is full of garbage.

 

[Papasmurf]

Vegeta got a YUGE aura here as well so I don't think that needs to mean much.

 

[Void]

Does it go from white to yellow there in the Full Color?

 

[Papasmurf]

never seen the scene in full color. I assume so.

 

[p123]

So why is everyone concerned with Gohan releasing all the power he has opposed to just transforming into Super Saiyan 2 to beat Dabura?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

So why is everyone concerned with Gohan releasing all the power he has opposed to just transforming into Super Saiyan 2 to beat Dabura?

For the same reason FNF Saga Gohan said ''it's hard to release all my power'' instead of just saying ''it's hard to go SSJ2''.

 

[Dragon Ball Fan]

The power arguments can easily be chalked up to them comparing his power as a SSJ1 which he used in a prolonged fight against Cell. Especially considering that Goku, who has no idea that Vegeta has SSJ2, does not refute his claim that he can finish Dabra off quickly - and it's never suggested Gohan's power is so inferior to his father's that he'd be weaker in the second form than Vegeta's first SSJ form.

It still doesn't explain how Vegeta was angry with Gohan's lack of success due to him slacking off, which, like I said, wouldn't make sense if Gohan just showed a form way stronger than they were seeing against Dabra. Rather, they'd be talking about how Gohan can't access SS2 anymore. Moreover, Goku said that Gohan should just be angry like he was in the battle against Cell, and that way he'd be unstoppable. If he was just SS1, making reference of the events in the Budokai would just be enough, unless, of course, Gohan was already in the same form he showed at the Budokai.

It also doesn't make sense for Goku to be completely oblivious at Vegeta having SS2 when Vegeta said how Gohan at the Budokai was weak and pretty much said them are stronger than Gohan now (read: this is before the fight against Dabra happening):


Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”

So we have two options:

1- Goku already knew Vegeta had SS2;
2- Goku thought Vegeta SS1 > Gohan SS2


Not to mention that Goku specifically exalted Vegeta's intelligence at the Cell saga, saying overcoming the SS wall shouldn't be that much of a problem. Do you really expect he wouldn't believe Vegeta achieved SS2 after seven years of training considering this?


Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P12.7
Goku: “Vegeta is a genius…He ought to be able to surpass the Super Saiyan wall, but…”

Dabra being a Cell-level form can still be the case if they refer to the Cell who fought SSJ Gohan and Goku 7 years ago rather than his post-zenkai power.

Even pre-Zenkai Cell (Kanzentai Cell) was above the Boo arc SS, so Gohan wouldn't be able to match Dabura's power at SS1. Dabura also saw Goku's SS transformation vs Yakon (with a strong aura) and its reading (3000 kiri), yet was still pretty confident in taking not just Goku, but all the three SS at the same time, which wouldn't be possible if he didn't hold a significant advantage over them:


Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P2.5-6
Babidi: "Thr... 3,000 kiri...!! H-how does an Earthling have 3,000 kiri of energy...?!!
Dabra: “3,000 kiri…That’s strange…There shouldn’t be any human race like that.”

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P12.1-2
Context: Babidi is concerned now that Goku and co. have defeated even Yakon.
Dabra: “…Alright then, I know what to do…I shall take away your anxiety, Lord Babidi…I shall personally go to Stage 3. Then in the blink of an eye I shall fill Majin Boo’s ball with their energy, you’ll see.”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P2.4
Context: as he confronts Goku and co.
Dabra: “...It’s quite impressive that you humans managed to defeat Yakon and come as far as Stage 3. I could even call it miraculous…However, this will be as far as you go. You’ve got me as an opponent now…”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P3.1-2
Vegeta: “Hmph…Seems Babidi is really panicking, if you, his #1 man are already making your appearance…”
Dabra: “Hmph…Let’s end the pointless blather there and have all of you come at me, at once.”


Still, Gohan held a sure advantage over Dabra, as stated in a guidebook named Dragon Box and implied when Dabra couldn't significantly harm Gohan (in fact, Gohan went apparently unharmed) and we saw how much Vegeta and Goku were dealing damage to each other in a battle of equals.



You can keep claiming the art is in favor of Gohan being SS2, but the story clearly goes with a different route.

 

[p123]

Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 power and Enraged Power are clearly differentiated by nearly everyone though.

Very good points DB Fan.