Was Gohan a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 vs. Dabura?

[Papasmurf]

Goku's SSJ transformation not being at its full power is easily arguable since he transformed only to light up the area, and Goten and Trunks were far from their full power after immediately transforming as well. Babidi also only recorded his power immediately upon transforming. Even powered up, Goku could display 50% of his power or even less the last arc.

I won't deny the Cell statements make little sense overall as Goku already felt higher realms of power than the power Cell showed in his fight against him or SSJ Gohan. But even having him at SPC tier is problematic because Goku says he's much stronger than he thought, in which case a rusty SSJ/2 Gohan wouldn't last either way, and Gohan clearly refers to Vegeta and Goku's higher-than-Super Saiyan form as a power that damages extremely quickly, which Kaioshin hadn't seen in action. The story arguments for SSJ2 are still full of holes in that regard, especially with all the other retarded power implications around that time of the Boo arc.

Also, the argument that Goku expected Vegeta to reach Grade 2 is nonsensical to use here. Vegeta was surprised Goku had reached Super Saiyan 2 when he saw a glimpse of it against Yakon, 7 years after Cell. Surpassing the basic Super Saiyan in the Rosat =/= reaching Super Saiyan 2 which Goku was clearly surprised to see Vegeta had done when he transformed in response to Goku transforming to end things quickly.

On the other hand, AT makes a conscious and very consistent effort to depict Gohan with the visuals of the Super Saiyan 1 form, while showing near-flawless consistency in depicting Goku and Vegeta in the SSJ2 form during the exact same chapters where Gohan was standing in front of Boo's ball. There's simply no way of getting around Gohan having a powerful aura imbued with lightning in the Budokai, yet only having the same one he showed when he blew off his turban before even showing his SSJ2 form here. Even if it'd make more sense for Gohan to display his highest power in a serious fight, what we see is a Super Saiyan the same way Vegeta and Trunks only show the regular Super Saiyan against the Cell Jr.s whom they struggled with despite having a pumped-up form they could've used.

AT's conscious decision to show a Super Saiyan 1 >> conjectural evidence of something that's clearly refuted by what's shown via AT's own illustrations. Sorry. As I said before, SSJ2 Gohan being shown against Dabra is like saying Vegeta used grade 2 against the Cell Jr.s despite having a weak aura and inadequate muscle mass. Even if you feel the story is in your favor, AT's art shows no such thing.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

No matter what stance you take, both outcomes have shitty inferences.

Super Saiyan Gohan:

1) Has the aura. No question about that.
2) *Gohan seems to believe fighting at Super Saiyan 2 was what brought about the incredible damage energy.
3) *Neither Goku nor Vegeta have any qualms believing the other could take Dabra. This is before either know the other could turn Super Saiyan 2

*This could also be chalked up to Goku and Vegeta simply being way above Gohan and Dabra rather than Gohan being in a lesser form*

*The problem with this is neither knows how strong the other actually is. Goku knows he can stomp Dabra and Vegeta knows he can stomp Dabra. As long as they're aware of what they can do, I don't think it makes a difference either way. Vegeta told Goku that both of them were superior to Gohan and Goku never questioned him there. At this point, Base Vegeta's dominance over Pui-Pui was his only display of power.*

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan:

1) Kaioshin says Kibito never got to see how incredibly powerful Gohan really is. Kibito saw Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. This has to mean Gohan displayed even greater power at some point or Kaioshin lied...for no reason at all.

2) Goku instructs Gohan to focus on getting angry and unleashing all of his dormant power like he did against Cell. We know there's a difference between an enraged Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and normal Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. If all Gohan had to do was do what he did some hrs back, it seems odd that this wouldn't have been mentioned. The suggestion to tap into his hidden power could mean Gohan fought with his all and had no choice but to resort to getting pissed to access more power. That's often the go to option when Gohan can't do anything else. Also, Gohan was pretty winded and low on stamina after fighting Dabra, so it seems unlikely he had much in the way of reserve power.

3) The original assessment on Dabra is that he's "probably" as strong as Cell. Goku later says Dabra was a lot stronger than he thought after seeing how he's able to use magic. Now you can say Dabra was only compared to the Powered-Up Cell that Goku fought, but the fact that a much weaker Super Saiyan Gohan was able to fight him equally would imply Dabra isn't even as strong as that Cell.

That's the issue with that comparison. Kid Gohan was acting like a bitch when it came to fighting Powered-Up Cell, but it's still stated that their only chance at defeating that Cell was Gohan's dormant power. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan fighting evenly with someone stronger than Full-Power Cell would make more sense than a weaker Super Saiyan Gohan fighting equally with a Powered-Up Cell opponent or greater. You'd have to put Dabra's comparison to an extremely low level of Cell. Like when he was warming up or standing in the ring doing nothing.

4) Gohan is only asked to show them Super Saiyan and decides to take it up to another level. This shows that Gohan can become Super Saiyan 2 when he wants. There's no logical reason why this would've all changed within a few chapters. After Videl got stomped, Gohan was briefly pissed, but he went back to smiling and acting goofy again once she was healed. The idea that he was still simmering with rage isn't really implied...anywhere.

So that's my take on it. Gohan can be either a Super Saiyan or a Super Saiyan 2 based on how you read the story.

Edit: I like how I was making my post after DB Fan already made one.

 

[Papasmurf]

So since I really want don't to make multi-paragraph posts anymore on this tangent, I'll just leave it off with this: Dragon Ball is a visual medium. The art shows all the sequences of the story with supplemental exposition through narration and dialogue. If the latter does not conclusively state Gohan used SSJ2, even though it'd make more sense for him to access his full power while in a deadlock, while the art conclusively shows the traits of a SSJ to a T, that's most likely Toriyama's intent. It doesn't make sense that a Goku who flew through snake road in a day and a half could be slow enough that he'd need to rely on his kintoun to get to the Saiyan fight, considering that it only displayed comparable speed to a weighted Piccolo a year ago, yet AT's art shows just that - he uses the Kintoun.

No matter how many holes I see in the story, the art is the main depiction of the story through which he encompasses it. Toriyama's intent was for Goku to fly on his shitty cloud that should be slower than Raditz, and in these particular chapters it was for Gohan to demonstrably use SSJ1. If there was a statement that established solidly that Gohan surpassed the Super Saiyan against Dabra, I'd give the suggestion that he was depicted with a level 1 aura to show he weakened some thought. But as it stands he had all the traits of a SSJ2 in the tournament and not here. Therefore, he is a SSJ which wouldn't make any less sense than Kaioshin shitting his pants at base Vegeta and PuiPui being considered higher than 3 guys who can fill up Boo's meter.

Shit, the way Goku says he's absolutely no match against fatty because his power was the same as Vegeta's makes no sense if he can stay in SSJ3 long enough to kill fat boo which he later confirmed (also note that this was before Goku realized the kids can fuse), does that mean SSJ3 was something he magically gained 3 chapters later? No, it's simply shitty storytelling that makes no sense.

 

[p123]

How does Vegeta know he is superior to Gohan prior to Gohan fighting Dabura? How is Vegeta able to tell Goku, no, we are both stronger than him?

 

[Void]

How does Vegeta know he is superior to Gohan prior to Gohan fighting Dabura? How is Vegeta able to tell Goku, no, we are both stronger than him?

Because he saw Gohan transform into a Super Saiyan 2 at the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai and saw Goku's power against Yakon.

 

[p123]

Great answer. So why is Goku surprised that Vegeta has SS2 then?

 

[Pyro]

"Goku was only surprised at how much power Vegeta had."

^^^

 

[Dragon Ball Fan]

Goku's SSJ transformation not being at its full power is easily arguable since he transformed only to light up the area, and Goten and Trunks were far from their full power after immediately transforming as well. Babidi also only recorded his power immediately upon transforming. Even powered up, Goku could display 50% of his power or even less the last arc.

Goten and Trunks not being at full power at Kami's temple was shown to be the case. Nothing states that was the case with Goku vs Yakon, who gave no signals of being supressed. You can't just assume it. Furthermore, giving an actual reading for someone's strength (after Mirai Trunks' battle power of 5) just to represent said person's suppressed power would be pretty meaningless and dumb. Even so, Dabra was confident going up against the three SS, saying he will overflow Babidi's meter with their energy.

I won't deny the Cell statements make little sense overall as Goku already felt higher realms of power than the power Cell showed in his fight against him or SSJ Gohan. But even having him at SPC tier is problematic because Goku says he's much stronger than he thought, in which case a rusty SSJ/2 Gohan wouldn't last either way, and Gohan clearly refers to Vegeta and Goku's higher-than-Super Saiyan form as a power that damages extremely quickly, which Kaioshin hadn't seen in action. The story arguments for SSJ2 are still full of holes in that regard, especially with all the other retarded power implications around that time of the Boo arc.

Or Dabura was just at full power perfect Cell's level, actually higher, explaining how a weakened SS2 Gohan could keep up with him, as there's quite a gap between FP Perfect Cell and SS2 kid Gohan.

Dabra's blast doing no damage to Gohan is explained by the latter holding significant advantage over the former, as was seen when Dabra quickly avoided a hand to hand combat and made use of his abilities. Like I said, a guidebook named Dragon Ball Box establishes that Dabra cearly possess inferior power, but Gohan couldn't make it due to his rusty skills.

Also, the argument that Goku expected Vegeta to reach Grade 2 is nonsensical to use here. Vegeta was surprised Goku had reached Super Saiyan 2 when he saw a glimpse of it against Yakon, 7 years after Cell. Surpassing the basic Super Saiyan in the Rosat =/= reaching Super Saiyan 2 which Goku was clearly surprised to see Vegeta had done when he transformed in response to Goku transforming to end things quickly.

No, it's not nonsensical. It shows how Goku sees Vegeta's capacity as achieving something, being therefore pretty dumb he wouldn't expect Vegeta to do it after seven years, specially when Vegeta stated he has been training hard. Moreover, Vegeta wasn't exactly surprised at Goku achieving SS2:

The やはり can also mean "as expected", "likewise":

"So as expected, that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall?...The Super Saiyan wall..."

Rendering this point irrelevant.


Even more, since you are so attained on SS2's traits, Vegeta showed them right before fighting Goku:

Making the "Goku didn't expect Vegeta had it" even less credible. The wording speaks more about Goku being surprised Vegeta was his equal as SS2, not his obliviousness at Vegeta having the form, as he said he intended to end it at "maximum power", saying nothing about "surpassing the SS wall" or "breaking through the SS's limits"


Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gonna end this quickly, at maximum power.”
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”


If you can provide statements and justify them like I am doing here and just keep making a case of how the art depicts what you believe (what isn't 100% consistent), then there's no point in continuing this.

 

[Void]

lol, he's clearly drawn as Super Saiyan in the manga, there's no real getting around that.

You can certainly prove why it would make a lot more sense for him to be a Super Saiyan 2 though.

 

[Papasmurf]

Arguing for SSJ2 is essentially making up your headcanon. I can do it too! SSJ Goku holding his own against hit makes no sense, let alone base so I say he started out as a SSJ with base hair and then went Super Saiyan 2 with none of the physical characteristics.

 

[p123]

Gohan being a Super Saiyan 2 has more merit that one would believe. Both sides requires serious leaps of faith. I've always been a Gohan is a SSJ guy for the most part, but honestly, either is possible. Depends on what you hold onto more.