What is the 1st DBS character to surpass Gogeta SSJ4 (DBGT)?
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Goku Black or Zamasu.
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What's this mean?
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An interesting narrative element that isn't often discussed is Beerus' view of: Godly ki > normal ki.
It poses the question: is this due to the vessel carrying normal ki not being expected to have as much potential as a God (i.e. relatively speaking as opposed to a hard rule), or that normal ki maxes out at infinite 3D power and no higher dimension?
Just something to think about.
It poses the question: is this due to the vessel carrying normal ki not being expected to have as much potential as a God (i.e. relatively speaking as opposed to a hard rule), or that normal ki maxes out at infinite 3D power and no higher dimension?
Just something to think about.
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SSB Goku/Vegeta+
Omega Shenron is universal. SS4 Gogeta was able to giga-stomp him while holding back a lot and playing around. SS4 Gogeta can bust universal threats like Omega with no problem. If Gogeta were to become serious and fight at full power it would require SSB or more to beat him or stall enough to defuse him. With more or less mileage depending on how much power you think Gogeta was hiding.
Omega Shenron is universal. SS4 Gogeta was able to giga-stomp him while holding back a lot and playing around. SS4 Gogeta can bust universal threats like Omega with no problem. If Gogeta were to become serious and fight at full power it would require SSB or more to beat him or stall enough to defuse him. With more or less mileage depending on how much power you think Gogeta was hiding.
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So: Gogeta SSJ4 > Goku SSJB (FNF)?
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I maintain that it’s probably Zamasu. Destroying or threatening to destroy stuff isn’t reliable IMO. Too inconsistent. People are consistently amazed about characters making craters or lifting small weights.
Following the hierarchy, I’d say SBV or Golden Oozaru are SSJG level, since they’re all above fusion. SSJ4 is the step above that, so it’s comparable to Initial SSJB.
The thing is, SSJ4 Goku doesn’t get any power ups (aside from Limit Breaker, which isn’t as significant as PSSJB or the power ups vs Black) while SSJB Goku does. So SSJB Goku (End of FT Saga) >> SSJ4 Goku, and thus SSJB Vegetto >> SSJ4 Gogeta, but I’d say Gogeta is still above KKx10 SSJB Goku.
Basically, when Goku and Beerus fought the impact of their punches made was shaking the whole universe and they almost destroyed the universe as collateral damage. Nerds have calculated it to mean SSJG Goku can destroy the universe many times over if he really wanted, which is more than GT ever showed.
There’s also the idea that the Afterlife is as big as the universe, so Goku would be destroying the two universes, but I don’t remember if we actually see the Afterlife shaking. Just the normal universe.
To add on this, the Moro Saga has Goku complain he can’t maintain UI because he doesn’t have enough “god power”. I think Dai Boo also says something like this about his own limited power.
Following the hierarchy, I’d say SBV or Golden Oozaru are SSJG level, since they’re all above fusion. SSJ4 is the step above that, so it’s comparable to Initial SSJB.
The thing is, SSJ4 Goku doesn’t get any power ups (aside from Limit Breaker, which isn’t as significant as PSSJB or the power ups vs Black) while SSJB Goku does. So SSJB Goku (End of FT Saga) >> SSJ4 Goku, and thus SSJB Vegetto >> SSJ4 Gogeta, but I’d say Gogeta is still above KKx10 SSJB Goku.
Basically, when Goku and Beerus fought the impact of their punches made was shaking the whole universe and they almost destroyed the universe as collateral damage. Nerds have calculated it to mean SSJG Goku can destroy the universe many times over if he really wanted, which is more than GT ever showed.
There’s also the idea that the Afterlife is as big as the universe, so Goku would be destroying the two universes, but I don’t remember if we actually see the Afterlife shaking. Just the normal universe.
To add on this, the Moro Saga has Goku complain he can’t maintain UI because he doesn’t have enough “god power”. I think Dai Boo also says something like this about his own limited power.
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Analysing the DC & AP of a character acts as a good baseline for what they can do. While you may interpret that as nerd stuff, this type of thinking is quite natural among average fans as well, e.g. "wow he just blew up 'X' or "of course he can beat 'Y', he destroyed a 'Z'.
Sure, works of fiction in this genre are bound to have moments that appear odd within the scaling, but that doesn't make this method of power assessment unreliable overall.
Sure, works of fiction in this genre are bound to have moments that appear odd within the scaling, but that doesn't make this method of power assessment unreliable overall.
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I just think people look too hard into it. Like when it’s said Gohan-Boo is stronger in the anime than in the manga. Well, he did perform a better feat, but only because the anime wrote things in a way that lead to him doing trying to destroy the universe. The manga never had him pushed this far.
Talking about Gohan-Boo, it’s the only feat I ever see people bring up when talking about GT. Do the lack of feats in GT mean they’re much weaker? Does SSJ4 Goku getting hurt by glass or by struggling to lift a building? Of course not. GT has never concerned itself with such things (Besides Yi Xing Long’s minus energy eventually destroying the universe, which isn’t really DC/AP), so it’s unfair to compare it to Super.
Talking about Gohan-Boo, it’s the only feat I ever see people bring up when talking about GT. Do the lack of feats in GT mean they’re much weaker? Does SSJ4 Goku getting hurt by glass or by struggling to lift a building? Of course not. GT has never concerned itself with such things (Besides Yi Xing Long’s minus energy eventually destroying the universe, which isn’t really DC/AP), so it’s unfair to compare it to Super.
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To be fair, the Buuhan thing is a non-issue. His manga self didn't have the same rage that caused that phenomenon, and it was later pointed out that it's not a feat he could just recreate. On top of that, the threat he posed was more of a domino effect than direct destruction.
The gripe you have can be dealt with by standard critical thinking, like with the above explanation. It's not like Super isn't exempt from questionable moments as well such as a bullet affecting Goku or Roshi somehow going head to head with a gang of Frieza soldiers.
DC is destructive capacity, so a character being able to destroy something would be relevant to that category. AP comes into play when analysing characters by scaling them off of the DC displayed by a character. What you're doing is essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater, without any major reason or alternative presented.
The gripe you have can be dealt with by standard critical thinking, like with the above explanation. It's not like Super isn't exempt from questionable moments as well such as a bullet affecting Goku or Roshi somehow going head to head with a gang of Frieza soldiers.
DC is destructive capacity, so a character being able to destroy something would be relevant to that category. AP comes into play when analysing characters by scaling them off of the DC displayed by a character. What you're doing is essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater, without any major reason or alternative presented.
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The thing is, how is one supposed to scale GT to Super from that when GT hardly shows any feats? Base Goku shaking hell is probably the only big feat we have in GT.
If we go from this logic, then GT doesn’t show us anything that goes beyond SSJG level.
If we go from this logic, then GT doesn’t show us anything that goes beyond SSJG level.
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I get what you're saying, but it's usually the end of GT that people focus on to make their case.
In terms of earlier stuff, I've seen people bring up Goku collapsing Sugoroku Space as a key feat of power, but the size of that area wasn't expressed; we just know that it's part of the Universe. The Kais also didn't seem particularly concerned about the damage afterwards.
In terms of earlier stuff, I've seen people bring up Goku collapsing Sugoroku Space as a key feat of power, but the size of that area wasn't expressed; we just know that it's part of the Universe. The Kais also didn't seem particularly concerned about the damage afterwards.
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Do you think Omega Shenron’s Minus energy eventually destroying the universe is a feat? I see it brought up a lot, but it sounds more like his presence was making everything rotten instead of flat out destroying/blowing up the universe.
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Well he was titled as a God of Destruction. There's also two parts to what Omega could do with that energy.
- The passive effect: spreading it across the cosmos to rid of everything.
Note: Remember how some of Cell's absorption victims would seem depleted and then just disappear? Seems that the decay would be something of the same token. Quite impressive considering he's doing this through his presence and wasn't exactly in a rush either.
- The direct effect: focusing that energy into one point like he tried against Gogeta. That speaks for itself.
- The passive effect: spreading it across the cosmos to rid of everything.
Note: Remember how some of Cell's absorption victims would seem depleted and then just disappear? Seems that the decay would be something of the same token. Quite impressive considering he's doing this through his presence and wasn't exactly in a rush either.
- The direct effect: focusing that energy into one point like he tried against Gogeta. That speaks for itself.
