What were 18's expectations for the SSJ boost?

ahill1

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For us that think 18 was fighting somewhat close to her FP, or even using her FP, does she expect the boost to be really low? And with the boost Goten and Trunks got, did she still perceive them as way below her?

Because when the blast is shown to be slightly above her power (she still can dodge it, Goku for instance barely dodged 18k Vegeta's blast), she's totally shocked by their power... So what were her estimations for the SSJ boost? And how strong did she think they got?

Even when I write something like this, assuming 18 was using the same level she used Vs Vegeta and that base kid Trunks was ~ SSJ Vegeta's level Vs the androids (which most would already seem as downplaying the base kids strength)


Base kid Trunks -- 340,000,000
Android #18 [Vs mighty mask] -- 340,000,000
SSJ kid Trunks (18's estimations) -- 400,000,000
SSJ kid Trunks' suppressed blast -- 460,000,000
Android #18 -- 450,000,000

The numbers don't look good to me. Did 18 expect merely a 340 to 400 boost for SSJ? And was going from 400 to 460 that big of a power difference to make 18 wonder if they have that much outrageous power, which she didn't consider before? Seems like so minor gaps to showcase that level of reaction.
 

Yoshi

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The suppressed blast had outrageous power. It would have nearly killed her.
I agree. Kid Trunks and Kid Goten are likely above #18 in power too, even if you consider them to be weaker than Base Gohan.
 

Goku9001

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But she was fast enough to dodge it.
Goku also evaded Raditz' unexpected ki blast when he was flying towards Raditz at full speed. That same blast literally blew off Piccolo's arm. By your logic though, Goku would have completely escaped the blast unscathed. We've already seen much slower fighters react to something much faster than them. I believe Android 18's claim of the blast having both outrageous speed and power suggests that it was far above her. Otherwise, the blast would not be outrageous.

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Dagon

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Goku also evaded Raditz' unexpected ki blast when he was flying towards Raditz at full speed. That same blast literally blew off Piccolo's arm. By your logic though, Goku would have completely escaped the blast unscathed. We've already seen much slower fighters react to something much faster than them. I believe Android 18's claim of the blast having both outrageous speed and power suggests that it was far above her. Otherwise, the blast would not be outrageous.

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Yes I'm tired of people using dodging to say one is close in power/speed to or superior to what they were dodging.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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Well, at most, 18 expected too less of SSJ's considering that she was still confident on taking them down and didn't actually confirmed it to have outrageous power but put an interrogative in something which is pretended to sound definitive for most of the ears, similarly as how Gero thought the transformations and increases for the saiyans were not a big deal and that 19 can handle both Goku & Vegeta.

As for me, I think:
18 (initial effort) > Base Mighty Mask (he did clearly worse than SSJ Vegeta against her)
18 (full effort) >= SSJ Mighty Mask (expected)
SSJ Mighty Mask (actual/suppressed) >= 18

I can think she thought of a 0.1 to 0.25 increase at most. The gap wasn't that aboundant so she can't cut them in half using her Kienzan while she in the Androids Arc could take SSJ Trunks' sword as if nothing.

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ahill1

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Kuririn could also likely cut 2nd form Freeza with his Kienzan, and the gap was, like, 6x+ there. So Kienzan can cut way stronger opponents, even with a multifold gap.

Some even say Kienzan doesn't have limits, being able to cut anyone independent on the gap.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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Kuririn could also likely cut 2nd form Freeza with his Kienzan, and the gap was, like, 6x+ there. So Kienzan can cut way stronger opponents, even with a multifold gap.

Some even say Kienzan doesn't have limits, being able to cut anyone independent on the gap.
No, it doesn't. Toei makes pretty much clear how useless it is with a vast difference in power, SSJ2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell or Blue Goku vs Jiren. To say nothing of Krillin's Kienzan on Perfect Cell.

The only good example I think it can work is Base Goku against Gotenks Buu, Buu's body is soft, though.
 
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ahill1

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Goku also evaded Raditz' unexpected ki blast when he was flying towards Raditz at full speed. That same blast literally blew off Piccolo's arm. By your logic though, Goku would have completely escaped the blast unscathed. We've already seen much slower fighters react to something much faster than them. I believe Android 18's claim of the blast having both outrageous speed and power suggests that it was far above her. Otherwise, the blast would not be outrageous.

0006-009.png
Goku barely dodging Vegeta's blast is very similar to 18 barely dodging Trunks' blast. The way the saw the blast, their reactions when dodging and their following commentaries on their speed and power are very much similar. So I tend to compare both instances moreso due to their similarities:

Screenshot_20230713_210827_Firefox Nightly.jpg


Screenshot_20230713_210922_Firefox Nightly.jpg

Goku dodged Raditz's attack in a more urgent, visceral way, while screaming. Seems like he'd be in the end of his life receiving that head on. Raditz also stated he'd make his attacks better as time went by. He likely made it slower so they could have an easier time dodging it.

And Trunks underestimated 18 to a degree. He said they wouldn't kill her since she's 18. When she dodged, they were clearly a little frustrated and Goten suggests going a notch up, meaning that blast probably wouldn't kill 18, since even while underestimating her somewhat, likely based on the level she used to battle them, Trunks still said she wouldn't be dead. So an 18 that used her full abilities while dodging and kinda surpassed Trunks' estimations as he expected it to hit, would likely not have suffered heavy damages with that blast. She would likely be damaged, but I'm okay with that blast being slightly above her, as Vegeta's 18k blast gave Goku even more problems under a very similar scenario, dodging scene and similar compliments laid out by Goku after that. I didn't say that merely dodging it would necessarily imply the blast was only slightly above. It depends on the way the scene was built, the characters reactions to the blast, and it also goes back to Raditz saying he'd be increasing his attacks slowly and likely not wanting to kill them right away.
 

Goku9001

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Goku barely dodging Vegeta's blast is very similar to 18 barely dodging Trunks' blast. The way the saw the blast, their reactions when dodging and their following commentaries on their speed and power are very much similar. So I tend to compare both instances moreso due to their similarities:




Goku dodged Raditz's attack in a more urgent, visceral way, while screaming. Seems like he'd be in the end of his life receiving that head on. Raditz also stated he'd make his attacks better as time went by. He likely made it slower so they could have an easier time dodging it.

And Trunks underestimated 18 to a degree. He said they wouldn't kill her since she's 18. When she dodged, they were clearly a little frustrated and Goten suggests going a notch up, meaning that blast probably wouldn't kill 18, since even while underestimating her somewhat, likely based on the level she used to battle them, Trunks still said she wouldn't be dead. So an 18 that used her full abilities while dodging and kinda surpassed Trunks' estimations as he expected it to hit, would likely not have suffered heavy damages with that blast. She would likely be damaged, but I'm okay with that blast being slightly above her, as Vegeta's 18k blast gave Goku even more problems under a very similar scenario, dodging scene and similar compliments laid out by Goku after that. I didn't say that merely dodging it would necessarily imply the blast was only slightly above. It depends on the way the scene was built, the characters reactions to the blast, and it also goes back to Raditz saying he'd be increasing his attacks slowly and likely not wanting to kill them right away.
That is irrelevant to the point. If the argument is that the blast from the Super Saiyan kids could not be significantly beyond Android 18 because she managed to dodge it, then the point still stands that Goku evading Raditz' blast is a counterexample to the claim because even you agree that the blast would have decimated Goku. I honestly don't care for the numerical gap all that much. A 450 vs. 460 isn't representative of a critical wound which would have happened if the blast had connected with Android 18. You claim that you go based on reactions and Android 18 shitting bricks would imply a significant gap.

Regardless, we have examples in the forms of Vegeta vs. Monster Zarbon and Trunks vs. Cold & Frieza in which the weaker fighters were capable of escaping their blasts. The latter scene doesn't even need to frame the scene in any way to make it obvious that Trunks' blast would have significantly damaged Cold and Frieza, if not, killed them. Furthermore, Vegeta evaded a point-blank blow from Recoome which would have critically wounded him had it connected.

When we look at it Goten's and Trunks' conversation, it's evident that Trunks misjudged Android 18.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…

Goten is the one warning Trunks not to use a ki blast. Trunks responds by claiming that she is powerful enough to handle it because she is Android 18 who used to be stronger than the strongest people they know. Right before launching the blast, Goten warns Trunks again.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!
Trunks: “I know, I know!

Trunks' response was one you would expect from a child who is constantly being reminded by a parent as to what not to do. Trunks overestimated Android 18 and her. In any case, Android 18 was petrified and had no idea whether the kids actually held back on the blast. It should be obvious based on her immediate response that the blast was easily above her. It wouldn't be an outrageous blast if it were within her capabilities and honestly, I don't really have any idea why the framing of the scene even matters here. Adjust Goku's angle against Raditz and you would literally have the same scene.
 

Animelover5487

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No, it doesn't. Toei makes pretty much clear how useless it is with a vast difference in power, SSJ2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell or Blue Goku vs Jiren. To say nothing of Krillin's Kienzan on Perfect Cell.

The only good example I think it can work is Base Goku against Gotenks Buu, Buu's body is soft, though.
No offense but using Toei feats is kind of an L.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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The Goku/Jiren gap and Kuririn/Cell gap is WAY bigger than 18 vs Kids.
Agree with Krillin & Cell. Jiren wasn't even trying with Goku, so he couldn't even have been 2x Goku's power.

Gohan vs Cell is at most a 100/60 gap and Kienzan was useless. Kienzan is highly overhyped.
 

ahill1

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@Goku9001

It's not simply to dodge. It's dodging feats that resemble each other. That are very much identical to each other... And in both cases, both Goku and 18 highlight Vegeta and Trunks' power. The scenes very much resemble each other. Dodging isn't always an indicative of the superior fighting not holding superior power. But dodging in a similar way, characteristic, barely doing so, and dishing out similar comments towards the oppositions make it easy to compare the feats and use them for gaps comparisons. Dodging is a broad and general, non-specific feat, I agree... But having two pretty similar scenes showcasing both similar ducking abilities upon blasts thrown at them amid battle, and dishing out comments highlighting the same attributes (speed and power) while looking surprised and stunned in both situations means more in my book than simply picking up a random scene, which I agree, we can't draw gaps from.

We know kid Trunks didn't want to beat up 18... As in, kill her. If upon firing the blast, Trunks is like "darn, we missed" and Goten suggests doing one more or bombarding her, not even saying how that blast would have killed her... Makes it seem like 18's speed and overall capabilities were higher than they estimated. They didn't even mention how that was a threat to her. They just took she dodging it as a reason they'd need to go with some other blast again, possibly stronger. If they didn't want to kill her and they still were surprised they missed, then that blast wasn't enough to kill her... As even while accounting for a stronger 18, they didn't think that'd put her down, they specifically made it tamed not to kill her. If 18 was holding back somewhat Vs their base states, which makes sense, then it also makes more sense for Trunks to underestimate her power --- as he'd obviously base her power upon the power she used battling them. And she probably held back a little, not a lot, but still somewhat of her true powers --- likely, used 3/4 or so given she doesn't lose her composure when they see their powers augmented as SSJs.

As an example that popped in my head, Raditz was a little below Piccolo's Makankosappo... Like 1250 Vs 1330... And Piccolo was flabbergasted Raditz dodged it. He said no one could just move that fast. I think it's possible that, when the intention is not to kill, that the superior fighter may slow the speed a little to make it easier for the opponent to dodge. That blast from Trunks didn't seem to carry excessive speed either, as he was already fully prepared to appear from above and slice them up. In the anime iirc Freeza even mocked the speed saying something like "you think we can't dodge it" or some stuff like this if the memory isn't failing me.
 

Goku9001

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@ahill1

I'm not sure why the framing of the scene really matters. The only thing that would matter in regard to dodging would be the characters' position relative to the blast, the speed/power behind it, and the reaction to it. In the Goku vs. Raditz example, it's self-evident that the blast would have gravely wounded by the blast regardless of how he dodged it. The intended message does not change if you angle Goku relative to Raditz the way he did against Vegeta or make the same comment. This is why I think the framing argument isn't a very good one because you can frame Goku vs. Raditz in a multitude of different ways while still retaining the same message.

In all fairness, you could have the gap between Android 18 vs. Suppressed Blast the same as you would with Kaioken Goku vs. Vegeta. Goku's exchange with Vegeta makes it clear that even a ~16k vs. 18k is pretty substantial in battle. I just don't think a 450 vs. 460 is representative of 18's encounter with the SSJ Kids' blast. That's similar to the difference between BoZ Goku and BoZ Piccolo more or less.
 

ahill1

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@ahill1

I'm not sure why the framing of the scene really matters. The only thing that would matter in regard to dodging would be the characters' position relative to the blast, the speed/power behind it, and the reaction to it. In the Goku vs. Raditz example, it's self-evident that the blast would have gravely wounded by the blast regardless of how he dodged it. The intended message does not change if you angle Goku relative to Raditz the way he did against Vegeta or make the same comment. This is why I think the framing argument isn't a very good one because you can frame Goku vs. Raditz in a multitude of different ways while still retaining the same message.

In all fairness, you could have the gap between Android 18 vs. Suppressed Blast the same as you would with Kaioken Goku vs. Vegeta. Goku's exchange with Vegeta makes it clear that even a ~16k vs. 18k is pretty substantial in battle. I just don't think a 450 vs. 460 is representative of 18's encounter with the SSJ Kids' blast. That's similar to the difference between BoZ Goku and BoZ Piccolo more or less.
Well yeah, point taken on the first paragraph. Still though, I think it's likely 18 was still holding back a little due to her initial apparent relaxing attitude when seeing the dude that was fending off her blows in base increasing their power, which makes it seem like that if Trunks had to estimate a power placement for 18, it'd be based on the fight they had with the effort 18 used. So that, taking into account the fact he was a little annoyed she dodged that, with Goten suggesting throwing one more, makes it likely she wasn't supposed to dodge that, hence the likely thought they underestimated her a little. So if the blast was already intended not to kill her and the fact she dodged that wasn't on their plans, with them thinking in doing one more (would it make sense, upon being kinda annoyed she dodge that, to do one more blast lower than the first one? I think not. Faster it'd be for sure, that should come with more power too)... Makes it tempting to just put that scene in gaps comparable to Vegeta Vs Goku and not simply ignore the similarities of the scene considering how fitting a gap like that would be given the above reasoning. I think a 500 to 18's 450 would do fine too tho.


Base Kid Trunks -- 340
Android 18 [vs the kids] -- 340
SSJ kids [18's estimations] -- 400
18's current power -- 450
Base kid Trunks' blast -- 500

The main problem tho with increasing the blast to 500 would be Trunks' expectations of 18 not dying. If he judges 18 as 340 based on the level she used, would a 340 really be ok with a 500 blast? Maybe they were betting on her machine resistance, idk.

But if I increase 18's level closer to her 100% it'd also bring problems:


Base kid Trunks -- 380
18 [vs kids] -- 380


That'd leave too small of a room for 18 to be relaxed with their transformed states since they'd be already fighting in base close to her FP.


Going below that is a problem too


Base kid Trunks -- 250
18 [vs kids] -- 250

That would give more room for 18 to expect a big SSJ boost, but Trunks would obviously not go much beyond 250 as he doesn't want to kill 18... So he wouldn't be going for a blast 2x the power he bases off which is the one she used...


Do you see what I mean more or less? But I'm playing with gaps here, I must be looking a little crazy already lol.
 
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