What's the multiplier of UI (-Sign- & Complete) specifically in the manga?

[Cirno777]

Currently have it as at least more than 20x Blue (because of Goku using Kaiouken in chapter 39), but I'm wondering what others have for it.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I like using the same numbers as the anime: Sign is 50x Blue and Complete is 2.5x Sign.

I don’t think there’s anything to work with though. SSJBE and Fake Kaio-Ken could be anything and Broly happened off screen. Some people think the Moro Saga suggests Complete UI > 73 Moro > Blue Fusion, making it a huge multiplier, but I disagree. It’s explicitly said Moro would’ve won because of Spirit Fission, not because of power.

 

[Cirno777]

I like using the same numbers as the anime: Sign is 50x Blue and Complete is 2.5x Sign.

How'd you figure it's 50x blue -> 2.5x -sign-? I actually have it as at least 80x blue, dk about CUI but Jiren overpowered -Sign- Goku's Kamehameha, so maybe 2.22x -Sign-?

I don’t think there’s anything to work with though. SSJBE and Fake Kaio-Ken could be anything and Broly happened off screen.

The thing Goku used was stated to have the same principles as the Kaioken, so it could be up to 20x Blue. You're right though, it's a little bit of an assumption for it to be 20x.

Some people think the Moro Saga suggests Complete UI > 73 Moro > Blue Fusion, making it a huge multiplier, but I disagree. It’s explicitly said Moro would’ve won because of Spirit Fission, not because of power.

Yeah, kind of weird that some people think that, Piccolo only made that statement when Vegeta introduced FSF, so it's obviously FSF that invalidated fusion, not because Moro was stronger, necessarily. Is it possible that Piccolo was comparing SSJ Gogeta or LSSJ Broly to Moro, seeing as how Piccolo can't sense god ki?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How'd you figure it's 50x blue -> 2.5x -sign-? I actually have it as at least 80x blue, dk about CUI but Jiren overpowered -Sign- Goku's Kamehameha, so maybe 2.22x -Sign-?

50x comes from the fight in Episode 109 looking like Goku vs Freeza on Namek: Goku first tries Kaio-Ken, then a Genki-Dama, then a new form. 2.5x for UI is just an educated guess, but that's a nice catch on Jiren being somewhat over 2x Sign Kamehameha. I just think Jiren isn't absurdly stronger since he was probably close to FP against Goku, Vegeta and 17 since he was so pissed off but wasn't strong enough to beat them instantly.

The thing Goku used was stated to have the same principles as the Kaioken, so it could be up to 20x Blue. You're right though, it's a little bit of an assumption for it to be 20x.

SSJBE does better than Blue Kaio-Ken, so I think the latter was more like 10x. The strain might have messed up Goku's effective power though, so whatever. Jiren even says Goku is messing up his body.

Yeah, kind of weird that some people think that, Piccolo only made that statement when Vegeta introduced FSF, so it's obviously FSF that invalidated fusion, not because Moro was stronger, necessarily. Is it possible that Piccolo was comparing SSJ Gogeta or LSSJ Broly to Moro, seeing as how Piccolo can't sense god ki?

That's actually a great catch, although some people could argue Piccolo can just guess if he knows Base Gogeta and knows SSJB's multiplier. Either way, it's not a very smart statement since Gogeta also has Spirit Fission and might even have UI Sign, so Piccolo was just being pessimistic here.

 

[SIAD]

I think Gogeta PSSJB (Arc Moro) was much more powerful than Moro OG73-I (Suppressed), even stronger than UI Goku (Arc Moro), but anyway I think the difference between Gogeta PSSJB over that version of Moro, not it was tremendous. Moro with the magical abilities, maybe he would manage to hit and split Gogeta PSSJB.

I think neither Goku nor Piccolo thought about the possibility of Gogeta becoming SSJBE. In this way, he would have finished in an instant with that version of Moro.

 

[Cirno777]

50x comes from the fight in Episode 109 looking like Goku vs Freeza on Namek: Goku first tries Kaio-Ken, then a Genki-Dama, then a new form. 2.5x for UI is just an educated guess, but that's a nice catch on Jiren being somewhat over 2x Sign Kamehameha. I just think Jiren isn't absurdly stronger since he was probably close to FP against Goku, Vegeta and 17 since he was so pissed off but wasn't strong enough to beat them instantly.

Hmm... So, you believe that in this way, it parallels the Freeza Saga & the Super Saiyan form? Interesting. I have heard that people put the ToP Genkidama at 40x Blue (because it was withstanding the impact from two fighters at 20x Blue tier or more), so a 50x multiplier would fit. Reminds me of the Kaiouken x20 Kamehameha being a fail too, with that being roughly 40x Goku, then with SSJ of course being 50x.

As for me (in the anime), Jiren tanked a Final-Kamehameha from Goku & Vegeta in their 20x Blue forms, so (20x2.22)+(20x2.22) = 88.8, Jiren tanked that & UI -Sign- contended with him, if I remember rightly. Although, I have the Final-Flash at more than 2.22, but that's more speculative regarding P. Cell & Grade 3 Trunks' 500x multiplier.

SSJBE does better than Blue Kaio-Ken, so I think the latter was more like 10x. The strain might have messed up Goku's effective power though, so whatever. Jiren even says Goku is messing up his body.

True. Though I could've sworn it was stated in an interview that Evolution was superior to 20x Blue to some extent. Can't find it though.

That's actually a great catch, although some people could argue Piccolo can just guess if he knows Base Gogeta and knows SSJB's multiplier.

Yeah, I think Piccolo could make an educated guess since he's seen the difference between Goku/Vegeta & Gogeta in the Broly movie, & has at least sensed his base & SSJ forms.

In the novelisation of the movie, he states that Gogeta's base has greater ki than initial SSJ Broly, who he knows to be superior to Blue Goku/Vegeta,

Spoiler

so I think he could make a ballpark estimate of Blue's multiplier.

He also sensed Ikari Broly (no God Ki), who was roughly equal, if a smidge weaker than Blue Goku.

It's all academic though, since Piccolo likely only made the Moro/fusion comparison because of Forced Spirit Fission.

Either way, it's not a very smart statement since Gogeta also has Spirit Fission and might even have UI Sign, so Piccolo was just being pessimistic here.

Indeed, considering the possibility of Gogeta having UI -Sign-, I don't doubt that he can blitz Moro the same way that Goku dodged his draining magic. He also benefits from FSF, he can fissure his energy, & also remove 73 from Moro. So it would come down to who hits who first.

 

[Cirno777]

I think Gogeta PSSJB (Arc Moro) was much more powerful than Moro OG73-I (Suppressed), even stronger than UI Goku (Arc Moro), but anyway I think the difference between Gogeta PSSJB over that version of Moro, not it was tremendous. Moro with the magical abilities, maybe he would manage to hit and split Gogeta PSSJB.

Perhaps he could clip Gogeta, but Gogeta could do the same to him & his stolen power with FSF, no?

I personally have the difference quite large, actually. Because Moro (73) only is only certainly above LSSJ Broly to some degree, whom I have as only slightly stronger than SSJ Gogeta (Broly Saga). Broly definitely could've been in the region of SSJ-God Gogeta to be fair, but not Blue, & this is a current Gogeta we're considering.

I think neither Goku nor Piccolo thought about the possibility of Gogeta becoming SSJBE. In this way, he would have finished in an instant with that version of Moro.

What do you think about Merus absorbed Moro & Planet Moro, how'd Gogeta stack up to those forms?