What's your King Cold PL?

Super Neko Majin Z

Mid Class Warrior
Member
Joined
May 14, 2016
Messages
619
Assuming King Cold can transform (which he can't, but it's fun to pretend he could), how strong do you think he is compared to people in the Cell/Buu arcs? I think F4 100% Cold would be around the same power as Second Grade SSJ Vegeta was in his first fight with Cell, but without the speed disadvantage. What do you think?
 

Fantastische Hure

Zeta Elite
25k
Joined
Jun 1, 2015
Messages
30,769
Age
29
I don't think 2nd Grade Vegeta slowed-down.

But he'd be somewhat high, but I can't see him make it past Semi-Perfect Cell.
 

SSJ2

Zeta Elite
Staff member
Founder
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
65,672
Age
28
About as strong as Drock.
 

Jerk Store

High Class Warrior
Suspended
Joined
Jun 15, 2016
Messages
3,885
Age
106
Smoker said:
About as strong as Drock.

tumblr_m1oc2zqSlP1qmi5vro1_250.gif
 

SSJ2

Zeta Elite
Staff member
Founder
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
65,672
Age
28
Weaker than Paikuhan Extreme.

EThRqX2e_CuGeHtpnrNnvDmykAl-h_xPl90u7sNkeyI
 

freezamite

Mid Class Warrior
Suspended
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
687
Between 4.000.000 and 5.000.000. Stronger than an untrained SSJ, but weaker than Goku KKx20.
 

freezamite

Mid Class Warrior
Suspended
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
687
Fearless Boo said:
Kaioken 20x > Untrained SSjin?
Yes, an untrained SSJ would be around the power Goku had in Namek while using KKx10 more or less -in fact that's the power Goku SSJ had in Namek- (it depends on the fighter, on how "untrained" the SSJ form is, etc. -Vegeta SSJ was a bit stronger than that when he fought the androids, while Trunks was a bit lower).
 

Let's Go Fearless!

Zeta Elite
25k
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
41,541
Age
25
freezamite said:
Fearless Boo said:
Kaioken 20x > Untrained SSjin?
Yes, an untrained SSJ would be around the power Goku had in Namek while using KKx10 more or less -in fact that's the power Goku SSJ had in Namek- (it depends on the fighter, on how "untrained" the SSJ form is, etc. -Vegeta SSJ was a bit stronger than that when he fought the androids, while Trunks was a bit lower).
So Goku can't damage 50% Freeza by Kaioken20x yet as SSjin he made Freeza his bitch?
 

freezamite

Mid Class Warrior
Suspended
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
687
Fearless Boo said:
So Goku can't damage 50% Freeza by Kaioken20x yet as SSjin he made Freeza his bitch?
Yes, in the same way Goku couldn't fight against Vegeta even using KKx2 but Krilin could've killed him if Goku hadn't asked not to do so.
Was Krilin stronger than KKx2 Goku? No, it just happened that Vegeta was much weaker in the end of the fight.

Goku SSJ trashed 50% Freezer because after receiving the Genkidama Freezer was badly injured and had lost most of his strength.
 

Diamond Ryan

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
2,809
Age
23
freezamite said:
Fearless Boo said:
So Goku can't damage 50% Freeza by Kaioken20x yet as SSjin he made Freeza his bitch?
Yes, in the same way Goku couldn't fight against Vegeta even using KKx2 but Krilin could've killed him if Goku hadn't asked not to do so.
Was Krilin stronger than KKx2 Goku? No, it just happened that Vegeta was much weaker in the end of the fight.

Goku SSJ trashed 50% Freezer because after receiving the Genkidama Freezer was badly injured and had lost most of his strength.
And then he fought on par with Full Power Freeza, who explicitly stated he was using 100% of his power.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P11.1-3
Context: with 5 minutes (ha!) before Namek explodes
Freeza: “In that case, I’ll show you my 100% power! There’s no way you can defeat me! Prepare yourself!”
Goku: “Why are you using your full power now?...I know: it’s because when you use all of your power, your body itself can’t handle it.”
 

freezamite

Mid Class Warrior
Suspended
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
687
Private Ryan said:
And then he fought on par with Full Power Freeza, who explicitly stated he was using 100% of his power.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P11.1-3
Context: with 5 minutes (ha!) before Namek explodes
Freeza: “In that case, I’ll show you my 100% power! There’s no way you can defeat me! Prepare yourself!”
Goku: “Why are you using your full power now?...I know: it’s because when you use all of your power, your body itself can’t handle it.”
Which has nothing to do with the fact that Freezer had already lost most of his power. Vegeta was also using 100% of his power when he was trying to get into his space-ship in front of Krilin.
Freezer, besides being badly injured, was still using 50% of his power, so the dialogue refers to fighting at maximum power (but obviously the maximum he had at the moment).

Cell was also hiding his power while fighting Goku (he didn't give a %, but it was obvious he was fighting while restricting his power) and Goku still gave him a senzu bean because the power one loses because of the injuries can't be recovered.

Besides that, Freezer also states that his power has been affected at least two times:
1. After receiving the Genkidama (ch 317): "Even hurt I will easily kill you all!" demonstrates that he had lost a lot of power in the process.
2. After sending SSJ Goku at the bottom of a lake with his attack (ch 323): "If I'm stuck in the explosion I will loose even more strength..."

Using 100% of your power is independent of how much strength you still have. I mean, isn't Freezer at his 100% form when he gets fatally injured by the Kienzan and he loses so much strength he can't even fly to leave the planet? Does that mean that 100% Freezer is weaker than Ten Shin Han because Ten Shin could fly and Freezer couldn't?
 

freezamite

Mid Class Warrior
Suspended
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
687
Fearless Boo said:
He was banned for doing IT on Kanzshit.
So if this is trolling I'm sure you will be able to provide dozens of examples of how Freezer is unaffected by the injuries, won't you?
Meanwhile I'll look for an interview where Toriyama himself confirms that SSJ Goku's power in Namek was the same he had while using the KKx10.

Or are you going to say that despite the injuries playing a major role in nearly every single fight of the series and Toriyama stating it in person I'm trolling because your favourite character isn't as strong as you would like it to be? :cage1
 

Diamond Ryan

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
2,809
Age
23
freezamite said:
Private Ryan said:
freezamite said:
Yes, in the same way Goku couldn't fight against Vegeta even using KKx2 but Krilin could've killed him if Goku hadn't asked not to do so.
Was Krilin stronger than KKx2 Goku? No, it just happened that Vegeta was much weaker in the end of the fight.

Goku SSJ trashed 50% Freezer because after receiving the Genkidama Freezer was badly injured and had lost most of his strength.
And then he fought on par with Full Power Freeza, who explicitly stated he was using 100% of his power.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P11.1-3
Context: with 5 minutes (ha!) before Namek explodes
Freeza: “In that case, I’ll show you my 100% power! There’s no way you can defeat me! Prepare yourself!”
Goku: “Why are you using your full power now?...I know: it’s because when you use all of your power, your body itself can’t handle it.”
Which has nothing to do with the fact that Freezer had already lost most of his power. Vegeta was also using 100% of his power when he was trying to get into his ship in front of Krilin.
Freezer, besides being badly injured, was still using 50% of his power, so the dialogue refers to fighting at maximum power (but obviously the maximum he had at the moment).

Cell was also hiding his power while fighting Goku (he didn't give a %, but it was obvious he was fighting while restricting his power) and Goku still gave him a senzu bean because what power one loses because of the injuries can't be recovered.

Besides that, Freezer also states that his power has been affected at least two times:
1. After receiving the Genkidama (ch 317): "Even hurt I will easily kill you all!" demonstrates that he had lost a lot of power in the process.
2. After sending SSJ Goku at the bottom of a lake with his attack (ch 323): "If I'm stuck in the explosion I will loose even more strength..."

Using 100% of your power is independent of how much strength you still have. I mean, isn't Freezer at his 100% form when he gets fatally injured by the Kienzan and he loses so much strength he can't even fly to leave the planet?
Using your full power in an injured state =/= being at 100% power. At best, Freeza's injuries were superficial, because after recovering from the Genki Dama, Freeza is not shown mentioning his injuries to Goku or mentioning them to himself at all. The second quote is in reference to how Freeza's ki continually falls at full power, because his body is unable to handle it. It doesn't have anything to do with any past injuries.

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Note: Goku might be talking about himself, or both he and Freeza, not having any regrets as warriors.

The whole reason why Freeza was powering up to his full power, rather than obliterating the planet, is because he wanted an opportunity to test his full power. This meaning is completely lost if his full power actually turned out to only be ~20% of his power.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

If Freeza wasn't able to use anywhere near his full power, then obviously he didn't pass his peak.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”

Once again, the whole point of Goku saying this is completely moot if Freeza wasn't actually using his full power. The idea is that the legendary Super Saiyan arose up, the one person that Freeza feared. This is absolutely nonsense if Freeza's true full power would wreck SSj Goku. It makes the entire theme of the Freeza Saga moot. Not to mention, Freeza is never shown resenting any injuries he has from the Genki Dama when fighting Goku, which shows that they weren't a hindrance to him anymore. SSj Goku was simply stronger than Full Power Freeza.
 

Let's Go Fearless!

Zeta Elite
25k
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
41,541
Age
25
freezamite said:
Fearless Boo said:
He was banned for doing IT on Kanzshit.
So if this is trolling I'm sure you will be able to provide dozens of examples of how Freezer is unaffected by the injuries, won't you?
Meanwhile I'll look for an interview where Toriyama himself confirms that SSJ Goku's power in Namek was the same he had while using the KKx10.

Or are you going to say that despite the injuries playing a major role in nearly every single fight of the series and Toriyama stating it in person I'm trolling because your favourite character isn't as strong as you would like it to be? :cage1
Where?
 

freezamite

Mid Class Warrior
Suspended
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
687
Private Ryan said:
Using your full power in an injured state =/= being at 100% power. At best, Freeza's injuries were superficial, because after recovering from the Genki Dama, Freeza is not shown mentioning his injuries to Goku or mentioning them to himself at all.
Sorry, but that's not the case. The first thing Feezer says after the Genkidama is that Goku nearly killed him with it. The second thing he says is that despite being hurt (or badly hurt, depending on the translation you use) he can still kill them all.
Furthermore, Goku knew the extent of Freezer's power and even that he wasn't fighting at full strength, so it doesn't make much sense that he would miscalculate the strength of the Genkidama (he intended to kill Freezer with it) to the point of only doing "superficial damage" to him.

Private Ryan said:
The second quote is in reference to how Freeza's ki continually falls at full power, because his body is unable to handle it. It doesn't have anything to do with any past injuries.

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Note: Goku might be talking about himself, or both he and Freeza, not having any regrets as warriors.

The whole reason why Freeza was powering up to his full power, rather than obliterating the planet, is because he wanted an opportunity to test his full power. This meaning is completely lost if his full power actually turned out to only be ~20% of his power.
But loosing Ki because of the injuries is a basic rule in DB. Freezer had never trained once in his life (it was explicitly said in FnF, but it was apparent here when he confessed that he had never used his maximum power) and that translated into a body that couldn't properly resist fighting at maximum power.

So Freezer had that handicap added to the general rule of losing power with the injuries. In other words, unlike most other fighters in DB, Freezer loosed strength when fighting at his 100% even if he wasn't injured, but that obviously doesn't mean he didn't also lose energy when he was injured. In fact, we have pretty blatant evidences of that, for example, how after being cut in half by its kienzans he lost all his energy to the point of not being able even to fly.

Finally, when Goku says he will wait until Freezer reaches his 100% he isn't speaking about its injuries. Injuries are part of the fight and he was injuried as well (he regained his power thanks to the rage boost, but that's also part of the fight). And Freezer wanted to test himself fighting at his maximum power. But not test in the sense of "what can I destroy now compared to then" but in the sense of "I'll fight until I reach my own limits".

Private Ryan said:
Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

If Freeza wasn't able to use anywhere near his full power, then obviously he didn't pass his peak.
His peak in relative terms, because that's what caused Freezer's body to lose his strength. It doesn't matter if that 100% was weaker than the previous 50%, because in terms of forcing the body and fighting to the limits, 100% is still 100% and the peak Freezer could reach (at that moment).

Private Ryan said:
Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”

Once again, the whole point of Goku saying this is completely moot if Freeza wasn't actually using his full power. The idea is that the legendary Super Saiyan arose up, the one person that Freeza feared. This is absolutely nonsense if Freeza's true full power would wreck SSj Goku. It makes the entire theme of the Freeza Saga moot. Not to mention, Freeza is never shown resenting any injuries he has from the Genki Dama when fighting Goku, which shows that they weren't a hindrance to him anymore. SSj Goku was simply stronger than Full Power Freeza.
That would be true if Goku had been talking to the readers instead of talking to Freezer the character, but that wasn't the case in DB.
Goku hated Freezer and despite respecting him as a fighter he wanted to hurt him as much as he could (pride included), so it wouldn't make any sense for Goku to explain to Freezer that he won because he got him with the Genkidama.
That's like saying that Goku had more than 120.000 units when he arrived at Namek only because he didn't explain to Ginew that he reached 180.000 units of power thanks to a special technique called Kaioh Ken. In fact, not only Goku doesn't tell Ginew anything about the KK, he even implies that the 180.000 wasn't his full power, even when in reality that was already double his full power.

But the fact that Freezer had been badly injured and still managed to match SSJ Goku's strength, some factual data from the Cell saga and Toriama's interview all confirm that Freezer was much, much stronger than Goku SSJ.

Fearless Boo said:
In the super exciting guide.
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h441/Fox_969/toriyamassj.png

"To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a... simple reason that it’d make you go "eh?". I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku's hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn't have to be blacked in. What's more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

But that's obvious. Nothing in the manga points to Goku SSJ being a 50x over his base state (in Namek at least). He barely matched a badly injured Freezer while 50x would have been a 1-hit kill to a 100% non-injured Freezer. And that 10x multiplier is further confirmed in the Cell saga through some evidences that Toriyama put in there.
 

Latest profile posts

Trump is the rightful democratically elected president of Brazil :trump
SHOW ME UR PREZIDENT FACE!!!
Top