Why can’t SSJ2 = 2x work?

[GSM123]

Gohan: 1
~ SSJ2 + rage: 2.5

Cell: 1
~ FP: 1.5
~ SPC: 2.25

Making it 4-5x is just too cumbersome post Cell Games. It just snowballs into unecessary bloat as early as the fusion saga.

 

[SSJ2]

You're arbitrarily adding rage to Gohan's power (which is head canon) because you recognize that a strict 2x multiplier is not suggested.

I've never understood this obsession with "unnecessary bloating". This is the same story where Goku had a 33x power up from a singular zenkai in the Freeza arc, and likely much larger if you don't abide by the guidebook numbers. Why does a >2x SSJ2 boost suddenly become too much for you?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Because Less than half Gohan would smash SSJ Gohan.

4x is not too much bloat in the Buu Saga.

Gotenks and Gohan being 30-50x stronger is fine

because he’s a nerfer in denial @SSJ2 and then thinks everyone else is a bloater lol he’s a delusional lad he’s the type to have something small and want everyone to say it’s big, you know the type.

 

[GSM123]

You're arbitrarily adding rage to Gohan's power (which is head canon) because you recognize that a strict 2x multiplier is not suggested.

I've never understood this obsession with "unnecessary bloating". This is the same story where Goku had a 33x power up from a singular zenkai in the Freeza arc, and likely much larger if you don't abide by the guidebook numbers. Why does a >2x SSJ2 boost suddenly become too much for you?

You don’t think Gohan had a rage boost on top? Vegeta pretty much says that in the Boo Saga. The rage boost is there regardless of multiplier

Don’t you have SSJ be 4x base for fusions? You know what I’m talking about here.

Because Less than half Gohan would smash SSJ Gohan.

4x is not too much bloat in the Buu Saga.

Gotenks and Gohan being 30-50x stronger is fine

because he’s a nerfer in denial @SSJ2 and then thinks everyone else is a bloater lol he’s a delusional lad he’s the type to have something small and want everyone to say it’s big, you know the type.

But you said on the other thread that DBS probably uses a smaller SSJ multiplier? Why would they change all of the sudden?

 

[GSM123]

Without rage boost:

SSJ Gohan: 1
~ SSJ2: 2

Cell: 1.35
~ Zenkai: 1.8

Really what’s the problem? Buff Cell? 50% Gohan holding his own with SPC? Nobody here has SSJ2 Gohan multiple times Cell, so using that as an argument here but not following this is contradictory.

 

[SSJ2]

You don’t think Gohan had a rage boost on top? Vegeta pretty much says that in the Boo Saga. The rage boost is there regardless of multiplier

Don’t you have SSJ be 4x base for fusions? You know what I’m talking about here.

I don't think Gohan had a rage boost on top of SSJ2. SSJ2 was the rage boost in this instance, and the rage he had during the beam struggle brought him back to his full power. Vegeta's statement in the Boo arc is more of a hypothetical than anything, saying that Gohan's power is an unknown regardless of how weak he's become.

Fusions are a completely different case. There is solid reason to think that Base Gotenks is above SSJ2 level, and also solid reason to think that he isn't realms above SSJ3 Goku. It isn't nerfing the multiplier for the sake of keeping the numbers down.

 

[SSJ2]

Without rage boost:

SSJ Gohan: 1
~ SSJ2: 2

Cell: 1.35
~ Zenkai: 1.8

Really what’s the problem? Buff Cell? 50% Gohan holding his own with SPC? Nobody here has SSJ2 Gohan multiple times Cell, so using that as an argument here but not following this is contradictory.

It's just incredibly tight. Cell was arguably above SSJ Gohan already before going to full power. His power up is made to seem like a monstrous boost, you're treating it like a Semi Cell full power type boost, which was treated like trash by Vegeta. Then power weighted Cell is leagues above that, and Super Perfect Cell is above even that level.

 

[GSM123]

I don't think Gohan had a rage boost on top of SSJ2. SSJ2 was the rage boost in this instance, and the rage he had during the beam struggle brought him back to his full power. Vegeta's statement in the Boo arc is more of a hypothetical than anything, saying that Gohan's power is an unknown regardless of how weak he's become.

Fusions are a completely different case. There is solid reason to think that Base Gotenks is above SSJ2 level, and also solid reason to think that he isn't realms above SSJ3 Goku. It isn't nerfing the multiplier for the sake of keeping the numbers down.

There is no evidence placing base Gotenks at SSJ2 level and even less placing him close to SSJ3 Goku. There’s literally one statement about SSJ Gotenks Pre and it’s as vague as they come. How come we accepted base post > SSJ pre for ages but SSJ pre >>>> SSJ3 Goku is too much?

It’s not to keep numbers down lol. Super and GT make SSJ2 seem like nothing and some things flat out don’t work. Super does get crazy base Gogeta > SSJB fusee though. You guys would get if you were more into Super.

It's just incredibly tight. Cell was arguably above SSJ Gohan already before going to full power. His power up is made to seem like a monstrous boost, you're treating it like a Semi Cell full power type boost, which was treated like trash by Vegeta. Then power weighted Cell is leagues above that, and Super Perfect Cell is above even that level.

None of these power ups are quantifiable though. Specially the buff one since Cell was so beaten up.

I told this to P in the Freeza thread, no one cares about the size of the power up. It’s how strong you end up being that matters. And isn’t 1.33x too big for Semi Cell? It’s more like 1.2x for me.

 

[Power Level Guy]

But you said on the other thread that DBS probably uses a smaller SSJ multiplier? Why would they change all of the sudden?

Because Toyo is dumb. He probably thinks Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabura. And in Super is does indeed feel quite a bit smaller.

I told this to P in the Freeza thread, no one cares about the size of the power up. It’s how strong you end up being that matters. And isn’t 1.33x too big for Semi Cell? It’s more like 1.2x for me.

If the size doesn't matter, then why not go with a 10x power-up or a 100x? What does it matter if that's your stance?

 

[SSJ2]

There is no evidence placing base Gotenks at SSJ2 level and even less placing him close to SSJ3 Goku. There’s literally one statement about SSJ Gotenks Pre and it’s as vague as they come. How come we accepted base post > SSJ pre for ages but SSJ pre >>>> SSJ3 Goku is too much?

It’s not to keep numbers down lol. Super and GT make SSJ2 seem like nothing and some things flat out don’t work. Super does get crazy base Gogeta > SSJB fusee though. You guys would get if you were more into Super.

There is absolutely evidence of it, you are being willfully ignorant right now. I'm not telling you it's factual information but to say it can't be implied that Gotenks is SSJ2 level is factually incorrect. It is absolutely a valid interpretation of literal events in the story. Gotenks pre is held back by the fact that Piccolo still wanted to test him. That alone tells us that he isn't worlds above SSJ3 Goku.

Super is already borderline for these types of arguments, but if your opinion is being shaped by GT that is pretty hilarious. What in Super doesn't work?

 

[Yoshi]

You're arbitrarily adding rage to Gohan's power (which is head canon) because you recognize that a strict 2x multiplier is not suggested.

Didn’t Gohan actually have a real rage boost during the beam struggle against Super Perfect Cell too?

 

[SSJ2]

It's not directly stated in the manga. All Goku tells him is that he hadn't released all of his power yet. But we have no idea if that power is above his full SSJ2 power already shown.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Didn’t Gohan actually have a real rage boost during the beam struggle against Super Perfect Cell too?

Nah, Gohan is less than half his full power, he's much weaker than SPC when he wins.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It's not directly stated in the manga. All Goku tells him is that he hadn't released all of his power yet. But we have no idea if that power is above his full SSJ2 power already shown.

There's no reason is should be. Gohan has lost more than half his power. No reason to think he somehow gained it back.

 

[Scott]

Gohan was injured, but he was able to release his full power right at the end to destroy Cell. Being injured or tired doesn't necessarily stop you from using your full power; you can still do it if you try hard enough, but you won't be able to do it for long and you risk destroying your body. Gohan collapsed after firing his full-force Kamehameha, which he wouldn't have if he were fresh.

This was the only point we saw SS2 Gohan release his full power. His final Kamehameha burst was much stronger than the "Motionless Kamehameha" he used before.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Gohan was injured, but he was able to release his full power right at the end to destroy Cell.

You can't release power you've lost. Gohan destroyed Cell with the power he had available to him. Which was less than half power.

Being injured or tired doesn't necessarily stop you from using your full power; you can still do it if you try hard enough, but you won't be able to do it for long and you risk destroying your body. Gohan collapsed after firing his full-force Kamehameha, which he wouldn't have if he were fresh.

Gohan never achieved his full power, he had lost power that can't be gained back. This doesn't mean his Kamehameha wasn't full power though. Which is what matters. Nothing indicates losing power necessarily affects your ability to make a full powered ki blast.

Evidence is

Tien's Kikoho vs Nappa
Vegeta's Final Explosion vs Majin Buu
SSJ2 Gohan's Kamehameha vs SPC.

This was the only point we saw SS2 Gohan release his full power. His final Kamehameha burst was much stronger than the "Motionless Kamehameha" he used before

Sure, but that's because he didn't put his full effort in his Kamehameha vs PC. Against SPC he did.

Gohan's Actual power level vs PC >> Gohans power level vs SPC

Gohan's Kamehameha vs SPC > Gohan's Kamehameha vs PC.

 

[GSM123]

@Power Level Guy woah sunce when you got 50% Gohan > SPC? What happened to PC = 55% of Gohan?

Ahill debunked this “Being weakened doesn’t affect your Ki blasts” stuff ages ago. I think you’re ignoring it on purpose now.

@SSJ2 there really isn’t. Gotenks thinking he can beat Boo doesn’t mean anything other than that he’s stupid. Surviving a beating isn’t quantifiable either.

SSJ Gotenks not being 10x SSJ3 Goku was always a matter of convenience, let’s be honest. The closest thing to evidence is Piccolo asking to see Gotenks’ movements.

No point in me explaining GT and Super if you don’t care about either. But they’re all the same series, so the same logic should apply.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@Power Level Guy woah sunce when you got 50% Gohan > SPC? What happened to PC = 55% of Gohan?

Ahill debunked this “Being weakened doesn’t affect your Ki blasts” stuff ages ago. I think you’re ignoring it on purpose now.

@SSJ2 there really isn’t. Gotenks thinking he can beat Boo doesn’t mean anything other than that he’s stupid. Surviving a beating isn’t quantifiable either.

SSJ Gotenks not being 10x SSJ3 Goku was always a matter of convenience, let’s be honest. The closest thing to evidence is Piccolo asking to see Gotenks’ movements.

No point in me explaining GT and Super if you don’t care about either. But they’re all the same series, so the same logic should apply.

I think Kid Gohan >>= SPC >> Less than Half Gohan

If SPC chose to do a hand to hand battle he would have crushed Gohan.

Damaged fighters can still do full powered blasts. We’ve seen this time and time again throughout the series.

When did @ahill1 debunk this theory? It’s the best theory to explain a number of issues in the story.

 

[Scott]

You can't release power you've lost.

Gohan didn't "lose" his power. He just struggled to release all of it because he was injured.

Gohan destroyed Cell with the power he had available to him.

His full power was available to him. He could only use it by pushing his body to its limit, which he does right at the end.

Gohan never achieved his full power, he had lost power that can't be gained back. This doesn't mean his Kamehameha wasn't full power though.

He only used full power at the end. He held back before because he was scared of damaging Earth.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Gohan didn't "lose" his power. He just struggled to release all of it because he was injured.

Gohan is stated to have lost over half his power. During the ki blast, Gohan wasn't using all of his power. These are two separate issues. Gohan can still hold back, while using on half of his power.

His full power was available to him. He could only use it by pushing his body to its limit, which he does right at the end.

It wasn't. Gohan was severely injured and lost over half his power. What was available to him was his full power in terms of a Kamehameha blast. Gohan can still do a full powered Kamehameha blast despite being severely weakened.

He only used full power at the end. He held back before because he was scared of damaging Earth.

It was a full powered Kamehameha despite his actual power level being less than half.